The official fire Chris Finch thread

[life_saver]

The anti-Finch and anti-Connelly factions on this board amaze me.

Finch has been awesome so far in the playoffs. Has completely outcoached reddick. Not sure what games you're watching

There is a difference between our outplaying them, and Finch being the reason. You saw tonight Ant played Anti Finch ball and won. Most of the time that playstyle loses the game, tonight it worked. But to give Finch credit for Ant going hero ball mode is… dubious at best. Help me understand the defensive adjustments you credit Finch with that worked to help us win today? Because from my perspective we played terribly in the 2nd half defensively and gave up a truckload of wide open 3s, including the one Reaves missed for the tie.

You're right. A more heavy-handed coach would have sat Ant down for his "anti-Finch ball" and not let him cook. Great, he "sends a message"...but they almost certainly lose. Instead, Finch trusts his players to do the right thing over time and chooses not to micro-manage everything, which instills confidence in everyone from the superstar to the last player on the bench. That belief factor this team has, Finch is a major part of it. Belief that a struggling role player will come up big in clutch situations even though he was having a poor shooting night to that point. Belief that a 37-year old point guard still has value, with his defensive play keying the comeback. Belief that a guy he coached 5 years ago in another market has another side of his skill set that can be unlocked after a trade.

Finch might not be the best Xs and Os coach. Redick probably has exotic play calls that can run circles around him as a coach. But when it comes to understanding people and personalities, Finch has an ability to unlock players who everyone else has given up on. Unlock skills that everyone assumes a player doesn't have.

I am pro-Connelly but meh on Finch. I feel like Connelly is one of the best presidents in league. But I am bit indifferent on Finch. For me, I really dislike his stubborn nature. Consistently giving Conley 20+ minutes even when its obvious to everyone that he is struggling out there is madness...the first 5 mins stretch in 2nd half yesterday almost ended up costing the game. The starting lineup is not ideal this series but he still keeps persisting with it. There is no reason why Finch shouldn't be cutting down Conley's minutes to 10 mins per game.

[life_saver]

Another complaint I have with Finch is how he deals with young players. Found this on twitter the other day...this is a talk involving Chris Hine who wrote a book about Ant's career so far. Imagine your head coach saying something like this about No1 pick during his rookie season...

Read on Twitter

[Klomp]

There's maybe a handful of coaches I'd replace him with. None of them are available.

Bingo. There are like 5 coaches maybe who are in a class of their own. You're talking about names like Spoelstra, Kerr, Carlisle, maybe Daigneault, and Popovich when he was younger. Everyone else there is little to no difference in coaching ability. From there it comes down to personnel and I'd argue relationships between coaches, management and ownership, as well as the star players. When it's good, the coaches look very good and borderline up there with the top group. When it's not good, it can potentially cost a coach his job. Right now, Minnesota is in a near ideal place in terms of the structure and cohesion among ownership, Connelly, Finch and Edwards.

[Klomp]

Another complaint I have with Finch is how he deals with young players. Found this on twitter the other day...this is a talk involving Chris Hine who wrote a book about Ant's career so far. Imagine your head coach saying something like this about No1 pick during his rookie season...

I bet it happens more than you might think.

[Klomp]

I am pro-Connelly but meh on Finch. I feel like Connelly is one of the best presidents in league. But I am bit indifferent on Finch. For me, I really dislike his stubborn nature. Consistently giving Conley 20+ minutes even when its obvious to everyone that he is struggling out there is madness...the first 5 mins stretch in 2nd half yesterday almost ended up costing the game. The starting lineup is not ideal this series but he still keeps persisting with it. There is no reason why Finch shouldn't be cutting down Conley's minutes to 10 mins per game.

Conley's minutes are lower in this series than they were during the regular season.

[life_saver]

I am pro-Connelly but meh on Finch. I feel like Connelly is one of the best presidents in league. But I am bit indifferent on Finch. For me, I really dislike his stubborn nature. Consistently giving Conley 20+ minutes even when its obvious to everyone that he is struggling out there is madness...the first 5 mins stretch in 2nd half yesterday almost ended up costing the game. The starting lineup is not ideal this series but he still keeps persisting with it. There is no reason why Finch shouldn't be cutting down Conley's minutes to 10 mins per game.

Conley's minutes are lower in this series than they were during the regular season.

His minutes are not that lower...he averaged 24.5 mins during RS...so far this series, he is averaging 22.5 mins. So like just 2 mins lower. There is no reason why Conley mins this series should be playing more than 10-12 mins. Donte can easily take up those additional mins.

[Klomp]

I am pro-Connelly but meh on Finch. I feel like Connelly is one of the best presidents in league. But I am bit indifferent on Finch. For me, I really dislike his stubborn nature. Consistently giving Conley 20+ minutes even when its obvious to everyone that he is struggling out there is madness...the first 5 mins stretch in 2nd half yesterday almost ended up costing the game. The starting lineup is not ideal this series but he still keeps persisting with it. There is no reason why Finch shouldn't be cutting down Conley's minutes to 10 mins per game.

Conley's minutes are lower in this series than they were during the regular season.

His minutes are not that lower...he averaged 24.5 mins during RS...so far this series, he is averaging 22.5 mins. So like just 2 mins lower. There is no reason why Conley mins this series should be playing more than 10-12 mins. Donte can easily take up those additional mins.

No reason?!?!

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Depth is our strength in this series. Shortening our bench by taking out the highest IQ player on the team would be foolish.

Read on Twitter

[Baseline81]

Bingo. There are like 5 coaches maybe who are in a class of their own. You're talking about names like Spoelstra, Kerr, Carlisle, maybe Daigneault, and Popovich when he was younger. Everyone else there is little to no difference in coaching ability. From there it comes down to personnel and I'd argue relationships between coaches, management and ownership, as well as the star players. When it's good, the coaches look very good and borderline up there with the top group. When it's not good, it can potentially cost a coach his job. Right now, Minnesota is in a near ideal place in terms of the structure and cohesion among ownership, Connelly, Finch and Edwards.

[Klomp]

Bingo. There are like 5 coaches maybe who are in a class of their own. You're talking about names like Spoelstra, Kerr, Carlisle, maybe Daigneault, and Popovich when he was younger. Everyone else there is little to no difference in coaching ability. From there it comes down to personnel and I'd argue relationships between coaches, management and ownership, as well as the star players. When it's good, the coaches look very good and borderline up there with the top group. When it's not good, it can potentially cost a coach his job. Right now, Minnesota is in a near ideal place in terms of the structure and cohesion among ownership, Connelly, Finch and Edwards.

Yes, I am very sure about it.

Just look at the long list of the NBA's coach of the year winners. Monty Williams brought his team to the NBA Finals but then had an all-time colossal failure in Detroit. Did he forget how to coach or draw up plays? Of course no. Did Jason Kidd suddenly learn how to coach in Dallas after being a failure in Milwaukee and not great in Brooklyn? How did Nick Nurse coach the Raptors to the title but then couldn't do anything with the MVP of the league? Mike Malone and Mike Brown were both fired in Sacramento despite being established coaches elsewhere in the league.

[Baseline81]

Yes, I am very sure about it.

Just look at the long list of the NBA's coach of the year winners. Monty Williams brought his team to the NBA Finals but then had an all-time colossal failure in Detroit. Did he forget how to coach or draw up plays? Of course no. Did Jason Kidd suddenly learn how to coach in Dallas after being a failure in Milwaukee and not great in Brooklyn? How did Nick Nurse coach the Raptors to the title but then couldn't do anything with the MVP of the league? Mike Malone and Mike Brown were both fired in Sacramento despite being established coaches elsewhere in the league.

Two words, which I know you're very familiar with... RYAN SAUNDERS.

Please do not even try to justify him.

[Klomp]

Yes, I am very sure about it.

Just look at the long list of the NBA's coach of the year winners. Monty Williams brought his team to the NBA Finals but then had an all-time colossal failure in Detroit. Did he forget how to coach or draw up plays? Of course no. Did Jason Kidd suddenly learn how to coach in Dallas after being a failure in Milwaukee and not great in Brooklyn? How did Nick Nurse coach the Raptors to the title but then couldn't do anything with the MVP of the league? Mike Malone and Mike Brown were both fired in Sacramento despite being established coaches elsewhere in the league.

Two words, which I know you're very familiar with... RYAN SAUNDERS.

Please do not even try to justify him.

OK, clearly you took me more literal than I intended. No, of course Ryan Saunders is not in the same class as say the 8th best coach in the NBA. I didn't mean literally every other coach to ever lead a huddle as coach. But after the top five guys, there is probably around 15 coaches that have very little difference in their ability. But management always rushes to find someone "better" which is why the profession has so much turnover.

That doesn't mean a coaching change isn't the right decision if your coach is in that group, but it's not necessarily as automatic as people think. Just ask the Phoenix Suns and Milwaukee Bucks.

[guest81]

Bingo. There are like 5 coaches maybe who are in a class of their own. You're talking about names like Spoelstra, Kerr, Carlisle, maybe Daigneault, and Popovich when he was younger. Everyone else there is little to no difference in coaching ability. From there it comes down to personnel and I'd argue relationships between coaches, management and ownership, as well as the star players. When it's good, the coaches look very good and borderline up there with the top group. When it's not good, it can potentially cost a coach his job. Right now, Minnesota is in a near ideal place in terms of the structure and cohesion among ownership, Connelly, Finch and Edwards.

Yes, I am very sure about it.

Just look at the long list of the NBA's coach of the year winners. Monty Williams brought his team to the NBA Finals but then had an all-time colossal failure in Detroit. Did he forget how to coach or draw up plays? Of course no. Did Jason Kidd suddenly learn how to coach in Dallas after being a failure in Milwaukee and not great in Brooklyn? How did Nick Nurse coach the Raptors to the title but then couldn't do anything with the MVP of the league? Mike Malone and Mike Brown were both fired in Sacramento despite being established coaches elsewhere in the league.

Yea there isn't clear coach classes like 20 years ago with a pop or Phil Jackson. The coaching staffs are bigger now then ever before. He's coaches now a days a more about their relationships with players more than anything. That's something that nobody can question that Finch has

[Note30]

There's maybe a handful of coaches I'd replace him with. None of them are available.

Bingo. There are like 5 coaches maybe who are in a class of their own. You're talking about names like Spoelstra, Kerr, Carlisle, maybe Daigneault, and Popovich when he was younger. Everyone else there is little to no difference in coaching ability. From there it comes down to personnel and I'd argue relationships between coaches, management and ownership, as well as the star players. When it's good, the coaches look very good and borderline up there with the top group. When it's not good, it can potentially cost a coach his job. Right now, Minnesota is in a near ideal place in terms of the structure and cohesion among ownership, Connelly, Finch and Edwards.

I'd add in Atkinson and Udoka as coaches better than him.

That's 7 coaches, out of 29 others.

Unless you know college coaches and international coaches well, it's really hard to imagine poaching other coaches.

[Klomp]

There's maybe a handful of coaches I'd replace him with. None of them are available.

Bingo. There are like 5 coaches maybe who are in a class of their own. You're talking about names like Spoelstra, Kerr, Carlisle, maybe Daigneault, and Popovich when he was younger. Everyone else there is little to no difference in coaching ability. From there it comes down to personnel and I'd argue relationships between coaches, management and ownership, as well as the star players. When it's good, the coaches look very good and borderline up there with the top group. When it's not good, it can potentially cost a coach his job. Right now, Minnesota is in a near ideal place in terms of the structure and cohesion among ownership, Connelly, Finch and Edwards.

I'd add in Atkinson and Udoka as coaches better than him.

That's 7 coaches, out of 29 others.

Unless you know college coaches and international coaches well, it's really hard to imagine poaching other coaches.

Udoka is probably on the fringe of that top group, especially with Popovich on his way out before too long. It wasn't coaching ability that cost him his first job.

But again, I'd point to the fact that Atkinson is on his second head coaching gig, and needed four years of being an assistant before someone would hire him again. To me, that screams someone who is very much situation-based and not an automatic top guy. Maybe he's "better" than Finch but maybe not. And sometimes a "better" coach might not even result in more wins for a franchise. That's what puts such a large group of coaches in the same tier, at least in my perspective.

I bet a lot of people came into the playoffs thinking (and maybe still believe) that Redick is a better coach than Finch. Like I said earlier, he probably is a better Xs and Os tactician. But has that mattered in the series?

[Note30]

Bingo. There are like 5 coaches maybe who are in a class of their own. You're talking about names like Spoelstra, Kerr, Carlisle, maybe Daigneault, and Popovich when he was younger. Everyone else there is little to no difference in coaching ability. From there it comes down to personnel and I'd argue relationships between coaches, management and ownership, as well as the star players. When it's good, the coaches look very good and borderline up there with the top group. When it's not good, it can potentially cost a coach his job. Right now, Minnesota is in a near ideal place in terms of the structure and cohesion among ownership, Connelly, Finch and Edwards.

I'd add in Atkinson and Udoka as coaches better than him.

That's 7 coaches, out of 29 others.

Unless you know college coaches and international coaches well, it's really hard to imagine poaching other coaches.

Udoka is probably on the fringe of that top group, especially with Popovich on his way out before too long. It wasn't coaching ability that cost him his first job.

But again, I'd point to the fact that Atkinson is on his second head coaching gig, and needed four years of being an assistant before someone would hire him again. To me, that screams someone who is very much situation-based and not an automatic top guy. Maybe he's "better" than Finch but maybe not. And sometimes a "better" coach might not even result in more wins for a franchise. That's what puts such a large group of coaches in the same tier, at least in my perspective.

I bet a lot of people came into the playoffs thinking (and maybe still believe) that Redick is a better coach than Finch. Like I said earlier, he probably is a better Xs and Os tactician. But has that mattered in the series?

Udoka, point agreed.

Yeah it might be, you're right. I just generally like coaches like Atkinson who abandon styles when it's clear its not working.

There are coaches like Carlisle in your list who live and die by their style.

Finch is very similar imo.

Not necessarily a point against Finch, just an observation

[shrink]

The thing about rating coaches is they still might not be the right coach for your team.

I think Mike Budenholzer is obviously a good coach - I think he was Coach of the Year two years ago? But players are individuals, and they need a coach they will listen to. When the Suns stopped listening, he had to go.

Many people that have wanted to get rid of Finch over the last couple of months blame every one of Ant’s mistakes on Finch. Personally, I think Ant’s willingness to call his own number at the ends of games and problems passing come more from Ant than Finch. But regardless where you place the blame, it’s pretty clear that Ant, and the whole team, love and respect Finch because he gives it to them straight.

So even if you come up with a handful of coaches you think are better, you’re not necessarily getting a better coach for our team. I am a big fan of Rick Carlisle, and I think he is probably one of the few that is better than Finch, but I can almost guarantee that his style would rub Ant the wrong way, and this team follows Ant.

Right now, Ant and the rest of our players are following Finch, especially in the playoffs. Finch has taken disparate parts every season and made them work, even to the point of upsetting other playoff teams the last two years. I’m with that guy.

[Loaf_of_bread]

The thing about rating coaches is they still might not be the right coach for your team.

I think Mike Budenholzer is obviously a good coach - I think he was Coach of the Year two years ago? But players are individuals, and they need a coach they will listen to. When the Suns stopped listening, he had to go.

Many people that have wanted to get rid of Finch over the last couple of months blame every one of Ant’s mistakes on Finch. Personally, I think Ant’s willingness to call his own number at the ends of games and problems passing come more from Ant than Finch. But regardless where you place the blame, it’s pretty clear that Ant, and the whole team, love and respect Finch because he gives it to them straight.

So even if you come up with a handful of coaches you think are better, you’re not necessarily getting a better coach for our team. I am a big fan of Rick Carlisle, and I think he is probably one of the few that is better than Finch, but I can almost guarantee that his style would rub Ant the wrong way, and this team follows Ant.

Right now, Ant and the rest of our players are following Finch, especially in the playoffs. Finch has taken disparate parts every season and made them work, even to the point of upsetting other playoff teams the last two years. I’m with that guy.

Great post.

We are all currently on a high, but personally feel we need to get to the WCF or Finch needs to go. But, certainly agree with sentiments of a united team (which Finch seems to be able to manage), carries just as much importance as development, x's and o's, rotational decisions, etc...

The first part of the regular season was very hard to stomach looking at the talent we have.

ANT has certainly been a breath of fresh air this playoffs in terms of proving he has leadership abilities well beyond his age and maturity level. There is an undescribable essense of himself that is one of a kind.

There is merit to focusing on building a team of playoff assassins, and letting the team get away with underperming in the regular season... also, certainly understand if Finch is ANT's guy, his perspective shouldn't be ignored..

We need to finish strong though

[winforlose]

The anti-Finch and anti-Connelly factions on this board amaze me.

Finch has been awesome so far in the playoffs. Has completely outcoached reddick. Not sure what games you're watching

There is a difference between our outplaying them, and Finch being the reason. You saw tonight Ant played Anti Finch ball and won. Most of the time that playstyle loses the game, tonight it worked. But to give Finch credit for Ant going hero ball mode is… dubious at best. Help me understand the defensive adjustments you credit Finch with that worked to help us win today? Because from my perspective we played terribly in the 2nd half defensively and gave up a truckload of wide open 3s, including the one Reaves missed for the tie.

You're right. A more heavy-handed coach would have sat Ant down for his "anti-Finch ball" and not let him cook. Great, he "sends a message"...but they almost certainly lose. Instead, Finch trusts his players to do the right thing over time and chooses not to micro-manage everything, which instills confidence in everyone from the superstar to the last player on the bench. That belief factor this team has, Finch is a major part of it. Belief that a struggling role player will come up big in clutch situations even though he was having a poor shooting night to that point. Belief that a 37-year old point guard still has value, with his defensive play keying the comeback. Belief that a guy he coached 5 years ago in another market has another side of his skill set that can be unlocked after a trade.

Finch might not be the best Xs and Os coach. Redick probably has exotic play calls that can run circles around him as a coach. But when it comes to understanding people and personalities, Finch has an ability to unlock players who everyone else has given up on. Unlock skills that everyone assumes a player doesn't have.

I want to clarify something. Benching Ant for not running Finch ball does not/should not happen in the playoffs. At this point it is too late to make significant changes. You play the hand you are dealt. That being true, we played 46 clutch games during the season and lost a majority of them. Winning two games in the clutch in the playoffs does not suddenly make Finch a good coach in the clutch. Especially when the adjustments he wanted to make were not executed. This is the conversation, not results, but process. When Ant uses Finch’s process now Finch gets credit.

The defensive adjustments in game 4 caused us to give up a quick 8 run to start the 2nd half. We did not call timeout and that went to 11. Finch does call timeout and changes nothing, now it is 14. We played from behind the whole 3rd and most of the 4th because we kept giving them open 3s. Even Reaves final shot of the game was wide open. I am pretty sure they missed 3 or 4 in the final minutes that would qualify as between mostly open or wide open. Tired legs and poor coaching by JJ cost them that game.

Dilly is hurt, Clark was looking bad towards the end of the season, Finch and Minott have issues, Miller has never played, and Garza is not playoff worthy. When Naz and DDV got in early foul trouble in game 2, TSJ is the guy. TSJ is also bigger than Clark and stronger than Clark (he was used to switch onto or straight defend Luka.) Sure you can say it was great of Finch to do it instead of playing a shorter bench, but notice it didn’t happen until Naz and Rudy were in foul trouble.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

Surprised no one post it after the series. Finch did an amazing job in coaching and outplayed Reddick by far. He end most of the game with efficiency with ANT-NAZ-JU-Jaden-DDV and tonight he change and put Rudy and Mike almost all 4th. Rudy dominated the entire 4th and Mike hit the clutch 3 at the end. Great job!

[winforlose]

Surprised no one post it after the series. Finch did an amazing job in coaching and outplayed Reddick by far. He end most of the game with efficiency with ANT-NAZ-JU-Jaden-DDV and tonight he change and put Rudy and Mike almost all 4th. Rudy dominated the entire 4th and Mike hit the clutch 3 at the end. Great job!

I find posts like this confusing. In a game where everything went wrong, (in some ways historically,) you seek to give Finch credit for Rudy’s game. If anything you need to ask why Rudy had 14 points and 25 rebounds in games 1-4 before finally going off in game 5. Nothing that happened last night was outside of Rudy’s basic skill set. Our coach simply didn’t find a way to maximize the biggest mismatch for 80% of the series. I don’t know why Ant and crew sucked so much last night (Rudy and Randle were the only Wolves to play well,) but this is not a game where you say the coach did a great job getting them ready to play and execute. Again we shot 14.9% from deep and should have won by 25-30 instead of 7.