At what point do Lakers fans owe Darvin Ham an apology?

[tsherkin]

not resting LeBron James for Jarred Vanderbilt is 100% a legit criticism. Vanderbilt can do a similar role to what LeBron did defensively. It's not like LeBron was some offensive guru in that second half and big part of it was due to his exhaustion.

Also is Dalton Knecht somehow more unplayable than Jaxson Hayes in the playoffs?

Venderbilt has been hot garbage, though. Knecht too, when he played.

They were down 1 to start the 3rd and it was a 2-possession game or closer until there were about 4 minutes to go in the quarter. And Lebron had a bunch of big defensive rebounds for the Lakers at the end of that quarter. And Vanderbilt is also trash at the line, and Lebron was able to hit some FTs as well. Then Lebron had a steal and a block in the first 3 minutes of the 4th. Then two big blocks with about 2 minutes to go while they were down 1, which helped them flip the lead. He missed a 3 and had a turnover at the end, which hurt, but still.

They needed him the whole time. And Vanderbilt sucked.

[Myth]

No matter how many times you guys bump this thread it won't make Darvin Ham a better coach than JJ. The answer is "never".

This is what I keep thinking as I read this thread. Firing a coach, and the next coach not working out, does not mean that the initial coach shouldn't have been fired.

[levon]

No matter how many times you guys bump this thread it won't make Darvin Ham a better coach than JJ. The answer is "never".

This is what I keep thinking as I read this thread. Firing a coach, and the next coach not working out, does not mean that the initial coach shouldn't have been fired.

Yeah but I also fail to see how the Wolves being up 3-1 on the Lakers is evidence that JJ didn't work out. The locker room overwhelmingly praises JJ and basically never once stood up for Ham (in fact, they dissed him for being incompetent, unprepared, and for straight up not coaching them). Ham apologized to Pat Bev for his coaching stint.

JJ inherited a less talented roster from last year to start and he never had the team in play-in territory. Then the seismic trade happens and everyone agrees Lakers are taking a step back to build for the future. But the Lakers instead put together a great defense, win 50 games (51 if they didnt rest the last one) and make the third seed.

Even if you're not a Lakers fan and are just looking at it from the macro level, it's pretty obvious JJ is better. But if you are a Lakers fan and watch every game, there is absolutely no comparison in terms of preparation and attention to detail.

JJ has negatives for sure. I thought in the beginning of the season he was coaching the defense of a team he didn't have (switching everything). But once they landed DFS it became way better of a fit, to the point where I wonder if the plan was always DFS.

I also thought Game 1 against the Wolves was bad from a preparation perspective. I also wonder if playing the starters all second half lost the guys in the locker room a bit.

All in all if you were given a choice between Ham and JJ for your team, I think you'd be really foolish to pick Ham. I don't think he's head coaching material. And it's not the Lakers' fault for picking him either, given that he was considered a top candidate by multiple respected league thinkers. They were all wrong about him. Suddenly no one is praising Darvin Ham for anything.

[Myth]

No matter how many times you guys bump this thread it won't make Darvin Ham a better coach than JJ. The answer is "never".

This is what I keep thinking as I read this thread. Firing a coach, and the next coach not working out, does not mean that the initial coach shouldn't have been fired.

Yeah but I also fail to see how the Wolves being up 3-1 on the Lakers is evidence that JJ didn't work out.

My comment was more of a general statement. I also had in my mind when the Blazers fired Stotts and brought in Billups, Blazers fans often said "See, we shouldn't have let Stotts go" because the team was worse under Billups, but my response was always that they weren't going anywhere with Stotts' defense and needed to take a risk and bring in somebody to mix the system up. Billups was not the guy for that time with that squad.

All that said, I do think JJ is better than Ham, but if they lose in the first round, I do think that qualifies as not working out (this year at least), but Ham needed to go either way.

[Godymas]

not resting LeBron James for Jarred Vanderbilt is 100% a legit criticism. Vanderbilt can do a similar role to what LeBron did defensively. It's not like LeBron was some offensive guru in that second half and big part of it was due to his exhaustion.

Also is Dalton Knecht somehow more unplayable than Jaxson Hayes in the playoffs?

Venderbilt has been hot garbage, though. Knecht too, when he played.

They were down 1 to start the 3rd and it was a 2-possession game or closer until there were about 4 minutes to go in the quarter. And Lebron had a bunch of big defensive rebounds for the Lakers at the end of that quarter. And Vanderbilt is also trash at the line, and Lebron was able to hit some FTs as well. Then Lebron had a steal and a block in the first 3 minutes of the 4th. Then two big blocks with about 2 minutes to go while they were down 1, which helped them flip the lead. He missed a 3 and had a turnover at the end, which hurt, but still.

They needed him the whole time. And Vanderbilt sucked.

Knecht has not even played meaningful minutes in these playoffs at all, he played during a blowout briefly when the game was already lost. He has not had to play meaningful minutes and JJ is refusing to even attempt to test the waters with him. He didn't use game 1 to feel them out, instead he did the inexperienced coach decision and had a rigid way to play and it didn't work. He is not an experienced playoff coach.

The point of playing Vanderbilt is to offset the load on LeBron. In the playoffs you are as good as your weakest link. If Vanderbilt is the weakest player on the floor, but he's at least neutral in minutes that allow LeBron to come back and win, that's what good coaching can do.

You're ignoring the context entirely, it's the 2nd half, LeBron was not doing much at all on offense anyways. Why are you playing him purely for defense when you have Vanderbilt to try and fill that role and it will give LeBron a chance to rest a little to get back in and pick up more steam on offense.

The criticism that Perkins presented is 100% valid when you actually take a second to analyze the context of the situation. As Perkin's says in that clip, why are you not at least trying to rest LeBron James a little and put in a big body like Vanderbilt in. It's an in game trade-off that an experienced coach can try.

What JJ has proven is that he is a rigid coach, he lacks the true experience to test things out in the playoffs for the sake of winning. Now you might argue "oh but he's inexperienced" THAT WAS LITERALLY THE SAME CASE FOR DARVIN HAM, and yet he actually got them further once he got buy in. The Lakers fixed their roster with the WB trade and then they went on a run.

[Godymas]

No matter how many times you guys bump this thread it won't make Darvin Ham a better coach than JJ. The answer is "never".

This is what I keep thinking as I read this thread. Firing a coach, and the next coach not working out, does not mean that the initial coach shouldn't have been fired.

Yeah but I also fail to see how the Wolves being up 3-1 on the Lakers is evidence that JJ didn't work out. The locker room overwhelmingly praises JJ and basically never once stood up for Ham (in fact, they dissed him for being incompetent, unprepared, and for straight up not coaching them). Ham apologized to Pat Bev for his coaching stint.

JJ inherited a less talented roster from last year to start and he never had the team in play-in territory. Then the seismic trade happens and everyone agrees Lakers are taking a step back to build for the future. But the Lakers instead put together a great defense, win 50 games (51 if they didnt rest the last one) and make the third seed.

Well that's false, JJ inherited roughly the same roster as Ham and had them on the exact same winning trajectory until the trade for Luka. Then the Lakers managed to somehow win games with their flawed roster which went 100% against what expectations were with the Luka trade. Anyone at the time thought the Lakers were worse for the season, the fact that they got to the 3rd seed alone was a miracle.

[tsherkin]

Knecht has not even played meaningful minutes in these playoffs at all, he played during a blowout briefly when the game was already lost. He has not had to play meaningful minutes and JJ is refusing to even attempt to test the waters with him. He didn't use game 1 to feel them out, instead he did the inexperienced coach decision and had a rigid way to play and it didn't work. He is not an experienced playoff coach.

Using a playoff game to "feel a guy out" when you're trying to win usually isn't a hot move. I don't think it would have helped them any, IMHO.

The point of playing Vanderbilt is to offset the load on LeBron. In the playoffs you are as good as your weakest link. If Vanderbilt is the weakest player on the floor, but he's at least neutral in minutes that allow LeBron to come back and win, that's what good coaching can do.

He isn't neutral, though. Nor was Knecht, for that matter.

You're ignoring the context entirely, it's the 2nd half, LeBron was not doing much at all on offense anyways. Why are you playing him purely for defense when you have Vanderbilt to try and fill that role and it will give LeBron a chance to rest a little to get back in and pick up more steam on offense.

Lebron was doing it better, frankly, and they needed it from him.

What JJ has proven is that he is a rigid coach, he lacks the true experience to test things out in the playoffs for the sake of winning. Now you might argue "oh but he's inexperienced" THAT WAS LITERALLY THE SAME CASE FOR DARVIN HAM, and yet he actually got them further once he got buy in. The Lakers fixed their roster with the WB trade and then they went on a run.

I absolutely do not think it was an inexperience thing. I do not agree with any of the alternatives to playing Lebron those minutes, tbh.

[NZB2323]

I think both the Lakers and the Suns owe an apology to Frank Vogel.

[Curmudgeon]

I think both the Lakers and the Suns owe an apology to Frank Vogel.

+1

[Godymas]

Knecht has not even played meaningful minutes in these playoffs at all, he played during a blowout briefly when the game was already lost. He has not had to play meaningful minutes and JJ is refusing to even attempt to test the waters with him. He didn't use game 1 to feel them out, instead he did the inexperienced coach decision and had a rigid way to play and it didn't work. He is not an experienced playoff coach.

Using a playoff game to "feel a guy out" when you're trying to win usually isn't a hot move. I don't think it would have helped them any, IMHO.

The point of playing Vanderbilt is to offset the load on LeBron. In the playoffs you are as good as your weakest link. If Vanderbilt is the weakest player on the floor, but he's at least neutral in minutes that allow LeBron to come back and win, that's what good coaching can do.

He isn't neutral, though. Nor was Knecht, for that matter.

You're ignoring the context entirely, it's the 2nd half, LeBron was not doing much at all on offense anyways. Why are you playing him purely for defense when you have Vanderbilt to try and fill that role and it will give LeBron a chance to rest a little to get back in and pick up more steam on offense.

Lebron was doing it better, frankly, and they needed it from him.

What JJ has proven is that he is a rigid coach, he lacks the true experience to test things out in the playoffs for the sake of winning. Now you might argue "oh but he's inexperienced" THAT WAS LITERALLY THE SAME CASE FOR DARVIN HAM, and yet he actually got them further once he got buy in. The Lakers fixed their roster with the WB trade and then they went on a run.

I absolutely do not think it was an inexperience thing. I do not agree with any of the alternatives to playing Lebron those minutes, tbh.

You do not think that the guy coaching his first ever playoffs is inexperienced. It seems like arguing with you is a waste of time if you don't want to look at factual statements.

You don't have any sufficient reasoning for why they shouldn't have rested LeBron. He went 0-2 in the 4th quarter. LEBRON WAS GIVING NOTHING ON OFFENSE IN THE 4TH QUARTER. And you are saying it was still a bad idea to rest him for another player that would also give 0 on offense in the 4th quarter.

It's a 7 games series, the point of a game 1 is to feel things out. Now guess what, it's a Bo1 for the Lakers and if they lose they are done and THEY DO NOT KNOW IF KNECHT WOULD HAVE WORKED. That is coaching incompetence.

[tsherkin]

You do not think that the guy coaching his first ever playoffs is inexperienced. It seems like arguing with you is a waste of time if you don't want to look at factual statements.

That isn't what I actually said. If you're going to play semantic games, then we don't need to continue. I said I didn't think this specific decision was born of inexperience.

You don't have any sufficient reasoning for why they shouldn't have rested LeBron. He went 0-2 in the 4th quarter. LEBRON WAS GIVING NOTHING ON OFFENSE IN THE 4TH QUARTER. And you are saying it was still a bad idea to rest him for another player that would also give 0 on offense in the 4th quarter.

Yep. Because he was doing a better job on the glass and on D. As I already noted.

It's a 7 games series, the point of a game 1 is to feel things out. Now guess what, it's a Bo1 for the Lakers and if they lose they are done and THEY DO NOT KNOW IF KNECHT WOULD HAVE WORKED. That is coaching incompetence.

No it isn't. It's a decision he didn't make and a hypothetical at best. Meantime, in a projected tight series, playing atypical lineups isn't generally the thing to do.

[Godymas]

You do not think that the guy coaching his first ever playoffs is inexperienced. It seems like arguing with you is a waste of time if you don't want to look at factual statements.

That isn't what I actually said. If you're going to play semantic games, then we don't need to continue. I said I didn't think this specific decision was born of inexperience.

You don't have any sufficient reasoning for why they shouldn't have rested LeBron. He went 0-2 in the 4th quarter. LEBRON WAS GIVING NOTHING ON OFFENSE IN THE 4TH QUARTER. And you are saying it was still a bad idea to rest him for another player that would also give 0 on offense in the 4th quarter.

Yep. Because he was doing a better job on the glass and on D. As I already noted.

It's a 7 games series, the point of a game 1 is to feel things out. Now guess what, it's a Bo1 for the Lakers and if they lose they are done and THEY DO NOT KNOW IF KNECHT WOULD HAVE WORKED. That is coaching incompetence.

No it isn't. It's a decision he didn't make and a hypothetical at best. Meantime, in a projected tight series, playing atypical lineups isn't generally the thing to do.

and your missing the argument entirely because the point isn't that LeBron James is a better player than Jarred Vanderbilt, anyone who hasn't watched a single moment of Jarred Vanderbilt could correctly pick it. The point is you need to give LeBron James at his age a break and Vanderbilt is the best temporary solution to do this. You might lower the strength of the line-up on the floor temporarily, but then the opportunity to have James raise the ceiling as the superstar he is when he returns is the trade-off. Experienced coaches can do this. JJ literally did an NBA2k level playoff rotation where you keep a shorter rotation because players don't get tired in a simulation.

[tsherkin]

and your missing the argument entirely because the point isn't that LeBron James is a better player than Jarred Vanderbilt, anyone who hasn't watched a single moment of Jarred Vanderbilt could correctly pick it. The point is you need to give LeBron James at his age a break and Vanderbilt is the best temporary solution to do this. You might lower the strength of the line-up on the floor temporarily, but then the opportunity to have James raise the ceiling as the superstar he is when he returns is the trade-off. Experienced coaches can do this. JJ literally did an NBA2k level playoff rotation where you keep a shorter rotation because players don't get tired in a simulation.

I'm not missing the point, I just don't agree with your point.

I see the argument for giving Lebron a break, at his age. But this was a critical game, and Vanderbilt hasn't been good, and Minny was basically ready to break things open even further. James isn't really a superstar anymore. He's a very good player, but he's 40. He wasn't going to swoop in and save the day single-handedly with dominant scoring. Fatigue is a thing, no doubt, but major minutes in the playoffs do happen. We criticize them a lot from guys like MAD and Thibs and so forth, but they have been common forever, and when you have no real depth and are playing a good team, they are more common. And necessary. And Lebron was out there doing tons of useful stuff.

You're focusing on offense, but the answer here was that Luka and Reaves needed to not suck ass in the fourth. Lebron kept them in it defensively and on the glass.

[levon]

This is what I keep thinking as I read this thread. Firing a coach, and the next coach not working out, does not mean that the initial coach shouldn't have been fired.

Yeah but I also fail to see how the Wolves being up 3-1 on the Lakers is evidence that JJ didn't work out.

My comment was more of a general statement. I also had in my mind when the Blazers fired Stotts and brought in Billups, Blazers fans often said "See, we shouldn't have let Stotts go" because the team was worse under Billups, but my response was always that they weren't going anywhere with Stotts' defense and needed to take a risk and bring in somebody to mix the system up. Billups was not the guy for that time with that squad.

All that said, I do think JJ is better than Ham, but if they lose in the first round, I do think that qualifies as not working out (this year at least), but Ham needed to go either way.

I think the Stotts-Billups thing is more comparable to Vogel-Ham, to be honest. Stotts and Vogel were both good coaches on one side of the ball, but the teams wanted to go in a different direction. I actually think Ham might be okay with a young bad team, getting them to play hard and instill good habits. He was really bad with tactics and apparently the more difficult parts of communication. He needs to grow in the role with a bad team, whereas JJ was thrown into two separate fires in one season and held his own.

[Sixers in 4]

No matter how many times you guys bump this thread it won't make Darvin Ham a better coach than JJ. The answer is "never".

This is what I keep thinking as I read this thread. Firing a coach, and the next coach not working out, does not mean that the initial coach shouldn't have been fired.

My stance is less to do about Ham, and more to do with how immensely unqualified JJ was when he was hired.

Don't like Ham? Fine by me. But don't sit here and pretend JJ is some savant when really his only two qualifications for the job was the fact he had a youtube podcast and he was drinking buddies with lebron. JJ Reddick is a modern day Roy Rubin the difference is the Lakers HAD options.

On a similar note why the **** does Sam Cassell not have a job as an HC? He's been ready for years. The amount of nepotism and just frankly BS politicking that goes on in the NBA is a joke.

[Revived]

Darvin Ham took the Lakers to the WCFs in his first season.

JJ Redick just got gentlemen swept despite having Luka freaking Doncic in addition to LeBron James.

I’m sorry but the apology needs to be as loud as the disrespect.

[dWadeOwnzYou]

The time is now. JJ has only won one playoff game as a rookie coach.

[Godymas]

and your missing the argument entirely because the point isn't that LeBron James is a better player than Jarred Vanderbilt, anyone who hasn't watched a single moment of Jarred Vanderbilt could correctly pick it. The point is you need to give LeBron James at his age a break and Vanderbilt is the best temporary solution to do this. You might lower the strength of the line-up on the floor temporarily, but then the opportunity to have James raise the ceiling as the superstar he is when he returns is the trade-off. Experienced coaches can do this. JJ literally did an NBA2k level playoff rotation where you keep a shorter rotation because players don't get tired in a simulation.

I'm not missing the point, I just don't agree with your point.

I see the argument for giving Lebron a break, at his age. But this was a critical game, and Vanderbilt hasn't been good, and Minny was basically ready to break things open even further. James isn't really a superstar anymore. He's a very good player, but he's 40. He wasn't going to swoop in and save the day single-handedly with dominant scoring. Fatigue is a thing, no doubt, but major minutes in the playoffs do happen. We criticize them a lot from guys like MAD and Thibs and so forth, but they have been common forever, and when you have no real depth and are playing a good team, they are more common. And necessary. And Lebron was out there doing tons of useful stuff.

You're focusing on offense, but the answer here was that Luka and Reaves needed to not suck ass in the fourth. Lebron kept them in it defensively and on the glass.

Last night JJ ran Vando 20 mins and he was one of the few players that was positive for the Lakers. Vando was great for them defensively and was the adjustment JJ desperately had to make as anyone who is a coach recognized from the previous games, and it wasn't enough.

[Godymas]

Guys, I thought JJ Redick was so good of a coach, I thought the Lakers were contenders because they were the 3 seed. They went on such a great streak. You have LUKA DONCIC with LEBRON JAMES, the basketball world CANNOT handle them together guys?

[Godymas]

After playing Denver, Malone talks about how well JJ planned.
After playing Houston, their fans talk about JJ out-coaching Udoka.

Most Lakers fans now and the Lakers players fully buy into JJ and the coaching staff knowing they can plan and prepare the team against almost anyone. God, am I glad I dont have to see Ham's hand in pocket stance ever again!! Or Ham not calling any timeout when the other team scores 15 in a row.

Chris Finch completely outschemed JJ and every single adjustment made in that series. Last night the reason why the Timberwolves won was because they were executing a game plan designed by Finch and even though JJ tried to adjust by removing Hayes and giving more minutes to Vando and Gabe, it didn't matter. The team shot 7 of 47 from 3, and a lot of those were open 3s, and they still won. The only way a team shoots that bad and still wins is because they had the perfect game plan in place.

JJ got destroyed from a coaching PoV in his first playoff series by Chris Finch. Not by a Steve Kerr, Ime Udoka, Ty Lue Championship tier coach. Chris Finch.