Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now?

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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#241 » by Ice Man » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:09 am

Ice Man wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:These statements have been public knowledge for literally three decades.


Rod Thorn, director of NBA operations, was a key figure in devising and implementing the new rules.

“We looked at the games and saw that the physical contact had gone to the outer extremes,” Thorn said. “I’m not talking about the fights, but all the grabbing, holding and shoving was making it almost impossible to move from place to place on the basketball court.”

League officials are aware that scoring in regular season games dropped 17 points between 1986 and [1993-1994]. Defense became the best route to the Finals, if not the championship.

LA Times -- 1994


Three things. First, it's incorrect that league scoring dropped 17 points over those years. The actual figure was 9 points. Second, almost that entire decline was due not to lower offensive efficiency, but instead to slower pace. From the mid Eighties to the mid Nineties, defenses became better at stopping fast breaks, so there was more half-court play, which lowered overall scoring. Third, while the grabbing and clutching in the Nineties was high by the standards that were before that time, that doesn't mean that they were high by current standards. After all, Rod could not comment on how basketball in 2025 is played, only how it was played before 1994.

OK, four things. The fourth being that nobody who has ever written about the prevalence of hand checking back in the day has ever posted a video showing said hand checking. Look, here's 3 minutes of playoff ball from rough, tough 2003. Nobody touches anybody. Honestly, it looks more like a scrimmage than a playoff game.



It's always like that, whenever I look. I can't find any game from the past that supports the thesis.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#242 » by ScrantonBulls » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:09 am

Curmudgeon wrote:
ScrantonBulls wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:Bring back hand checking and eliminate the flagrant 1 and then we'll talk. There are no players in today's game who are equivalent to Rick Mahorn, Charles Oakley, Karl Malone or Jeff Ruland-- just to name 4. I won't even get into guys like John Brisker.

As for hand checking, players would complain when they were hand checked by Havlicek that they had black and blue marks all over their chest and stomach at the end of the game.

It's pretty obvious that you don't watch the modern NBA if you think handchecking doesn't happen.


LOL, you mean the defender's hand accidentally brushes against the offensive player's jersey? I watch the modern NBA on a regular basis. Today you can barely set a decent pick without getting called for a foul, and a foul is automatic if you breathe too heavily on a three point shooter. Teams are taking too many treys? That's a monster the league created by making it impossible to play physical defense on the perimeter and by retaining that chintzy corner three.

Come to think of it, the modern NBA needs a couple of John Briskers and Wendell Ladners.

Lmao, sure this. It literally took 10 seconds and/or a basic understanding of how these playoffs have done to disprove your "point". It's so strange that people feel the need to fervently defend the old NBA/bash the current era to the point of completely lying. No offense, but it's obvious you don't watch the current NBA. Why lie about it?

bledredwine wrote:There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#243 » by Curmudgeon » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:58 am

Meh. So someone committed a hard foul in this year's playoffs. Give that fellow a medal! Today's players are just as physical. LOL.

There is no question that today's players are, on average, more athletic, But tougher? I don't think so. And today the rules are designed to protect players, who, after all, have become multi million dollar entertainment properties, like movie stars in the studio era.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#244 » by ScrantonBulls » Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:11 am

Curmudgeon wrote:Meh. So someone committed a hard foul in this year's playoffs. Give that fellow a medal! Today's players are just as physical. LOL.

There is no question that today's players are, on average, more athletic, But tougher? I don't think so. And today the rules are designed to protect players, who, after all, have become multi million dollar entertainment properties, like movie stars in the studio era.

You could just admit you were wrong and move on with it. The entire playoffs have been that way. The physicality of the past being great than it is now is one of the biggest NBA myths out there. It isn't rooted in reality.
bledredwine wrote:There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#245 » by Curmudgeon » Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:31 am

ScrantonBulls wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:Meh. So someone committed a hard foul in this year's playoffs. Give that fellow a medal! Today's players are just as physical. LOL.

There is no question that today's players are, on average, more athletic, But tougher? I don't think so. And today the rules are designed to protect players, who, after all, have become multi million dollar entertainment properties, like movie stars in the studio era.

You could just admit you were wrong and move on with it. The entire playoffs have been that way. The physicality of the past being great than it is now is one of the biggest NBA myths out there. It isn't rooted in reality.


You need to watch some Boston Philly games from the 1980s, or the Pistons in the early 90s.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#246 » by ScrantonBulls » Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:23 am

Curmudgeon wrote:
ScrantonBulls wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:Meh. So someone committed a hard foul in this year's playoffs. Give that fellow a medal! Today's players are just as physical. LOL.

There is no question that today's players are, on average, more athletic, But tougher? I don't think so. And today the rules are designed to protect players, who, after all, have become multi million dollar entertainment properties, like movie stars in the studio era.

You could just admit you were wrong and move on with it. The entire playoffs have been that way. The physicality of the past being great than it is now is one of the biggest NBA myths out there. It isn't rooted in reality.


You need to watch some Boston Philly games from the 1980s, or the Pistons in the early 90s.

I just flipped this on. It is literally softer than baby ****. Saying that these series are more physical than modern NBA playoffs is laughable. Today you have guys getting bodied and hand checked 5 feet out from the 3 point line. In that era people were untouched until they were a few feet inside the 3 point line. Even disregarding the difference around the 3 point line, the physicality people describe when it comes to 80s basketball is so exaggerated. It's such a soft era outside of literally one team know for fouling hard.

bledredwine wrote:There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#247 » by Curmudgeon » Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:25 am

"Numbers lie alot. Wins and losses don't lie." - Jerry West

"You are what your record says you are."- Bill Parcells

"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#248 » by Ainosterhaspie » Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:36 am


Predictable. You told him which teams to look at. He does. It doesn't match what you claim. You claim cherry picking. It's been the same story this whole thread.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#249 » by Curmudgeon » Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:46 am

I can cherry pick too:
"Numbers lie alot. Wins and losses don't lie." - Jerry West

"You are what your record says you are."- Bill Parcells

"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#250 » by ScrantonBulls » Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:56 am

Curmudgeon wrote:I can cherry pick too:

Lmao holy ****, what a massive failure on your part. This is one of the biggest L's I've seen on here in a while.

Just take the L and move along. It's not that big of a deal
bledredwine wrote:There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#251 » by Ainosterhaspie » Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:06 am

Curmudgeon wrote:I can cherry pick too:

Zero basketball was played in this video.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#252 » by DaPessimist » Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:06 am

They just gave a taunting foul, the 2nd greatest player of this generation, because he gave the peace sign to a guy who just fouled him, and was standing over him.

This league is charmin soft. :lol:
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#253 » by Ainosterhaspie » Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:12 am

Watching the Warriors/Rockets right now and there have been two stoppages because of altercations in that last 10 minutes real time or so. Game stops. We're not watching basketball. But I guess this is what I'm supposed to be pining for. Nah, I'd rather watch them playing basketball than suck at fighting. Just perfectly fitting that this happens right as Curmudgeon is posting fight videos.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#254 » by f4p » Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:15 am

Ice Man wrote:. Look, here's 3 minutes of playoff ball from rough, tough 2003. Nobody touches anybody. Honestly, it looks more like a scrimmage than a playoff game.



It's always like that, whenever I look. I can't find any game from the past that supports the thesis.


How were there any survivors?
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#255 » by DonaldSanders » Tue Apr 29, 2025 5:59 am

I watch a lot of old games, it's just as physical as any time that has existed in the league, easily tied for the most in the playoffs.

What's different is true cheapshots get punished, no more punches get let go etc. and the flagrant rules changed. But play-to-play physicality is just as high as any peak in the history of the NBA (if you actually watch old games and don't go off memory).
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#256 » by Bergmaniac » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:14 pm

When I think of the level of physicality, I don't think of brawls, this is not basketball and they have always been pretty rare anyway (and no, one video showing a bunch of brawls from several years period doesn't prove otherwise). For me the level of physicality is how much contact there is during plays, how much of it is allowed by the refs. And in that aspect today's playoffs are clearly ahead of most other eras and at worst on par with the 1996-2004 superdefensive period. And in some aspects today there is clearly more physicality allowed than ever, for example in the low post, defenders get away with murder, especially if they are smaller guys defending bigs.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#257 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:16 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:Quotes from 1994 tell us nothing useful about this topic.



Image


Statements from the NBA in the mid-90s don't tell us anything about the NBA in the mid-90s...
-Guy who wasn't alive in the mid-90s.


Unbelievable...
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#258 » by Bergmaniac » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:37 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:Quotes from 1994 tell us nothing useful about this topic.



Image


Statements from the NBA in the mid-90s don't tell us anything about the NBA in the mid-90s...
-Guy who wasn't alive in the mid-90s.


Unbelievable...

I don't know about Ainosterhaspie, but I was certainly alive and watching games back then and I agree with them about these quotes. The level of physicality increased quite a bit after 1994 so whatever the league intended it clearly did not work. Pretty much everyone agrees that the 1996-2004 were the most physical and defensive-minded era since the merger at the very least. The scoring increased slightly in 1995 and 1996 but this was pretty much exclusively due to the shortened 3 point line. Once it was moved to its old position, the average offensive rating went below that of 1993/1994 and continued to decrease until 2004/05.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#259 » by Ice Man » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:51 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:I don't know about Ainosterhaspie, but I was certainly alive and watching games back then and I agree with them about these quotes.


Ditto and ditto. I have been watching basketball since the Bill Walton UCLA Bruins, and I watched essentially every Bulls game in the Nineties. So, I'm not terribly impressed with arguments that tell me that my views on Nineties basketball is wrong because I am not old enough to understand how the game was played.
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Re: Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now? 

Post#260 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:53 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:I don't know about Ainosterhaspie, but I was certainly alive and watching games back then and I agree with them about these quotes. The level of physicality increased quite a bit after 1994 so whatever the league intended it clearly did not work.



^This is an indisputable fact. The early 90s were rough. Things actually got more physical in the mid-90s.




Which, I think, is the entire point of the thread.

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