Giannis Antetokounmpo All-NBA (1st) & Dame Lillard 24-25 -Thread

[TroubleS0me]

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[ShotCreator]

Miserable prime Giannis year. Between Doc, the awful Middleton trade, and this injury.


As good as Giannis has been, I think we’ve definitively seen he’s not at the peak Jokic/SGA level.

His lack of fit with perimeter stars is glaring. And it limits his offensive impact.

His defense is good to very good but not DPOY level.

[DorianRo]

Thats a crappy end to his prime. He'll find a place somewhere as a nice spot up shooter or 6th man coming off the bench. But, Bucks weren't going to win again a chip again anyways with him. He never played much D. Awesome volume scorer but D and getting stops win's chips at the end of the day. . . Still. Bucks did awesome. Great run for that franchise. How often to the Bucks win titles? No stars are going to want to live there. Its over but, the fact they won a title, is an amazing feat. This is why you dont throw 50 mil a year to older players though which can hold you hostage if they go down with injuries

The big story is where Giannis is headed

[TroubleS0me]

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[TroubleS0me]

Miserable prime Giannis year. Between Doc, the awful Middleton trade, and this injury.


As good as Giannis has been, I think we’ve definitively seen he’s not at the peak Jokic/SGA level.

His lack of fit with perimeter stars is glaring. And it limits his offensive impact.

His defense is good to very good but not DPOY level.

hmm really?

[Jaivl]

Miserable prime Giannis year. Between Doc, the awful Middleton trade, and this injury.


As good as Giannis has been, I think we’ve definitively seen he’s not at the peak Jokic/SGA level.

His lack of fit with perimeter stars is glaring. And it limits his offensive impact.

His defense is good to very good but not DPOY level.

hmm really?

If anything the more accurate sentence right now might be "as good as SGA has been, I think we've definitely seen he's not at the peak Jokic/Giannis level".

[ShotCreator]

Miserable prime Giannis year. Between Doc, the awful Middleton trade, and this injury.


As good as Giannis has been, I think we’ve definitively seen he’s not at the peak Jokic/SGA level.

His lack of fit with perimeter stars is glaring. And it limits his offensive impact.

His defense is good to very good but not DPOY level.

hmm really?

I mean as long as you’re comfortable with the fact that Giannis will make any star guard look ordinary next to him, then maybe he is as good as Jokic.

And as far as Shai, his defense is much closer to Giannis than Giannis offense is to his. But again, the only way you’d disagree is if you ignore all Giannis on versus Giannis off stats for all his teammates since 2019.

[parsnips33]

Miserable prime Giannis year. Between Doc, the awful Middleton trade, and this injury.


As good as Giannis has been, I think we’ve definitively seen he’s not at the peak Jokic/SGA level.

His lack of fit with perimeter stars is glaring. And it limits his offensive impact.

His defense is good to very good but not DPOY level.

hmm really?

I mean as long as you’re comfortable with the fact that Giannis will make any star guard look ordinary next to him, then maybe he is as good as Jokic.

And as far as Shai, his defense is much closer to Giannis than Giannis offense is to his. But again, the only way you’d disagree is if you ignore all Giannis on versus Giannis off stats for all his teammates since 2019.

Didn't Dame have a pretty good year for them?

[ShotCreator]

hmm really?

I mean as long as you’re comfortable with the fact that Giannis will make any star guard look ordinary next to him, then maybe he is as good as Jokic.

And as far as Shai, his defense is much closer to Giannis than Giannis offense is to his. But again, the only way you’d disagree is if you ignore all Giannis on versus Giannis off stats for all his teammates since 2019.

Didn't Dame have a pretty good year for them?

You’d be better off having Darius Garland while he plays next to Mobley compared to Dame when playing next to Giannis.

Damian Lillard topped Steph Curry on RS offense yearly since 2020. Absolute ATG offensive player in the RS.

In Milwaukee he was literally 2024 Jamal Murray level across metrics.

[ShotCreator]

Sam Amick:

The truth is, what we also learned this year is that Giannis kinda loves being Magic Johnson . As much as he does love Dame, the relationship was good, Giannis is at his happiest when he has the ball in his hands.
The moment where I learned this season where his head is at the most on this topic was when he had this quirky quote when Dame was out about ‘the cookie jar’.
He tried to make this forced analogy about how it’s like when you’re a kid and you have a cookie jar in the house. When you’re an only child, that cookie jar is all yours and you could put your hands in it whenever you want and get every kind of cookie you want. If you got a bunch of siblings, then everybody’s gonna be a little more selfish and treat the cookie jar a little bit differently.
It was something that was talked about in Bucks circles that kind of informed his mentality, and it’s not something that should be forgotten about going forward.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7iolqUjauidGadfkr3Mp9U?si=vqe2fTxTTDC2VV-EAD1BHg&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A5jUeKBONOmKJivqrRoIDJn


I don’t see what team this could work on at this point. This ego will probably prevent him from ever winning a title again. Maybe even ever being on a contender again.

[jalengreen]

Sam Amick:

The truth is, what we also learned this year is that Giannis kinda loves being Magic Johnson . As much as he does love Dame, the relationship was good, Giannis is at his happiest when he has the ball in his hands.
The moment where I learned this season where his head is at the most on this topic was when he had this quirky quote when Dame was out about ‘the cookie jar’.
He tried to make this forced analogy about how it’s like when you’re a kid and you have a cookie jar in the house. When you’re an only child, that cookie jar is all yours and you could put your hands in it whenever you want and get every kind of cookie you want. If you got a bunch of siblings, then everybody’s gonna be a little more selfish and treat the cookie jar a little bit differently.
It was something that was talked about in Bucks circles that kind of informed his mentality, and it’s not something that should be forgotten about going forward.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7iolqUjauidGadfkr3Mp9U?si=vqe2fTxTTDC2VV-EAD1BHg&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A5jUeKBONOmKJivqrRoIDJn


I don’t see what team this could work on at this point. This ego will probably prevent him from ever winning a title again. Maybe even ever being on a contender again.

Think it's a big stretch to say it'll prevent him from being on a contender, but I agree it's problematic

[tsherkin]

Sam Amick:

The truth is, what we also learned this year is that Giannis kinda loves being Magic Johnson . As much as he does love Dame, the relationship was good, Giannis is at his happiest when he has the ball in his hands.
The moment where I learned this season where his head is at the most on this topic was when he had this quirky quote when Dame was out about ‘the cookie jar’.
He tried to make this forced analogy about how it’s like when you’re a kid and you have a cookie jar in the house. When you’re an only child, that cookie jar is all yours and you could put your hands in it whenever you want and get every kind of cookie you want. If you got a bunch of siblings, then everybody’s gonna be a little more selfish and treat the cookie jar a little bit differently.
It was something that was talked about in Bucks circles that kind of informed his mentality, and it’s not something that should be forgotten about going forward.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7iolqUjauidGadfkr3Mp9U?si=vqe2fTxTTDC2VV-EAD1BHg&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A5jUeKBONOmKJivqrRoIDJn


I don’t see what team this could work on at this point. This ego will probably prevent him from ever winning a title again. Maybe even ever being on a contender again.

Think it's a big stretch to say it'll prevent him from being on a contender, but I agree it's problematic

Is it really problematic that one of the best players we've ever seen likes to have the ball a lot?

[jalengreen]

Sam Amick:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7iolqUjauidGadfkr3Mp9U?si=vqe2fTxTTDC2VV-EAD1BHg&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A5jUeKBONOmKJivqrRoIDJn


I don’t see what team this could work on at this point. This ego will probably prevent him from ever winning a title again. Maybe even ever being on a contender again.

Think it's a big stretch to say it'll prevent him from being on a contender, but I agree it's problematic

Is it really problematic that one of the best players we've ever seen likes to have the ball a lot?

Since 2015-16, plays with Damian Lillard as a pick & roll ball handler generate 1.04 points per possession - more than any other player in that span, while also having 1,000 more such possessions than any other player in that span. And he was at 1.07 PPP this season specifically, which was behind only Haliburton and Shai among high volume players. So it's pretty good when that other guy has the ball.

I've never been high on Giannis as a screener, and I think it's weird that playing with a guy like Dame, he's averaged just 2.1 screen assists per game over the last two years.

While the main problem with the Bucks over the last two seasons has been neither Dame nor Giannis and mostly the roster construction around them, I do not think the duo ever unlocked their potential due to a lack of synergy, and I ultimately find myself blaming Giannis for that more than I blame Lillard. So to me, it's problematic, yes.

[tsherkin]

Since 2015-16, plays with Damian Lillard as a pick & roll ball handler generate 1.04 points per possession - more than any other player in that span, while also having 1,000 more such possessions than any other player in that span. And he was at 1.07 PPP this season specifically, which was behind only Haliburton and Shai among high volume players. So it's pretty good when that other guy has the ball.

I've never been high on Giannis as a screener, and I think it's weird that playing with a guy like Dame, he's averaged just 2.1 screen assists per game over the last two years.

While the main problem with the Bucks over the last two seasons has been neither Dame nor Giannis and mostly the roster construction around them, I do not think the duo ever unlocked their potential due to a lack of synergy, and I ultimately find myself blaming Giannis for that more than I blame Lillard. So to me, it's problematic, yes.

Offense clicked just fine when Lillard was healthy in 2024. They were a +3.1 offense, 6th-ranked in the league.

And Giannis was scoring 1.0 PPP as the ball handler in the pick and roll that year (even better in the playoffs). 1.00 in post-ups. Murdering it in transition. Etc, etc, etc. I mean, he's an immensely efficient scoring threat. So worrying overmuch about Dame's scoring output seems off-base to me.

It isn't the greatest match of styles, for sure, but they still had a particularly effective offense when both of them were healthy. That was very much not their issue, at least during the RS. And Lillard was still a 24+ ppg guy on 59% TS, and even better this season, after some time to adjust to one another.

To me, their issues seem more related to defense, health and lack of depth than anything centering around their stars and their ability to play with one another, tbh.

[jalengreen]

Since 2015-16, plays with Damian Lillard as a pick & roll ball handler generate 1.04 points per possession - more than any other player in that span, while also having 1,000 more such possessions than any other player in that span. And he was at 1.07 PPP this season specifically, which was behind only Haliburton and Shai among high volume players. So it's pretty good when that other guy has the ball.

I've never been high on Giannis as a screener, and I think it's weird that playing with a guy like Dame, he's averaged just 2.1 screen assists per game over the last two years.

While the main problem with the Bucks over the last two seasons has been neither Dame nor Giannis and mostly the roster construction around them, I do not think the duo ever unlocked their potential due to a lack of synergy, and I ultimately find myself blaming Giannis for that more than I blame Lillard. So to me, it's problematic, yes.

Offense clicked just fine when Lillard was healthy in 2024. They were a +3.1 offense, 6th-ranked in the league.

And Giannis was scoring 1.0 PPP as the ball handler in the pick and roll that year (even better in the playoffs). 1.00 in post-ups. Murdering it in transition. Etc, etc, etc. I mean, he's an immensely efficient scoring threat. So worrying overmuch about Dame's scoring output seems off-base to me.

It isn't the greatest match of styles, for sure, but they still had a particularly effective offense when both of them were healthy. That was very much not their issue, at least during the RS. And Lillard was still a 24+ ppg guy on 59% TS, and even better this season, after some time to adjust to one another.

To me, their issues seem more related to defense, health and lack of depth than anything centering around their stars and their ability to play with one another, tbh.

Yeah the claim was never that they failed to generate effective offense. The claim is that he got the most efficient P&R ball handler in the NBA over the last decade as a teammate but continued to be a poor screen setter and preferred to have the ball in his own hands. "Well the offense was still effective" is cool, but I would sure hope an offense with Damian Lillard and Giannis Antetokounmpo would be effective!

As I said, the main problem with the Bucks was neither Dame nor Giannis. But after seeing how he adapted to having Lillard on his team, my evaluation of him as a player is lower than it was two years ago. And yeah, I think it's problematic.

Giannis' screen setting has always been a criticism of him and there was hope that with a player like Lillard who would focus in on that more, but it didn't happen that way. I get it, he's an all-time great and puts up good numbers himself, but there are other all-time greats with good numbers who do not take the same approach as Giannis, so I don't know why we wouldn't be able to point that out. The best player in the world, who Giannis is often compared to, is a great screen setter.

[tsherkin]

Yeah the claim was never that they failed to generate effective offense. The claim is that he got the most efficient P&R ball handler in the NBA over the last decade as a teammate but continued to be a poor screen setter and preferred to have the ball in his own hands. "Well the offense was still effective" is cool, but I would sure hope an offense with Damian Lillard and Giannis Antetokounmpo would be effective!

Not my point. My point was that I don't think them not being optimal with one another is any kind of problematic because their offense is still good. Their larger problems have nothing to do with the Giannis-Dame synergy, and if those were addressed, it would become entirely a non-issue.

Giannis' screen setting has always been a criticism of him and there was hope that with a player like Lillard who would focus in on that more, but it didn't happen that way. I get it, he's an all-time great and puts up good numbers himself, but there are other all-time greats with good numbers who do not take the same approach as Giannis, so I don't know why we wouldn't be able to point that out. The best player in the world, who Giannis is often compared to, is a great screen setter.

Sure. It's an area where he could theoretically improve. But this whole exercise started with pondering about it being a "problem" that he likes having the ball in his hands, which I think is a little hyperbolic, that's all.

[TroubleS0me]

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[tsamo]

I will just say, for how much flak Giannis and Dame got for their 2-man game (rightfully), it's **** weird how a player who was out of the league the previous season and was wasting on the Clippers this season, came in and instantly had better chemistry with Giannis with like no training whatsoever.

Makes you think whether some people just straight up have it, or if some players just have better connections with some players just intrinsically...