2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10

[MettaWorldPanda]

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Duncan is officially done here. End of an era

[greg4012]

Forget all the deep playoff runs Bam anchored elite defenses, this one series proved it!!

Let's also forget the fact that the 2024 NBA champion Celtics had 60% of their playoff center minutes filled by Al Horford (6'9) and Jayson Tatum (6'9)

Let's also forget the fact that the 2022 NBA champion Warriors had 84% of their playoff center minutes filled by Draymond Green (6'6), Kevon Looney (6'9), and Otto Porter Jr (6'8).

Let's also forget the fact that the 2021 NBA champion Bucks had 25% of their playoff center minutes filled by Bobby Portis Jr (6'10 and groundbound)--with another 12% by Giannis (6'11 PF).

Additionally, the 2023 NBA champion Nuggets had 15% of their playoff center minutes filled by 6'8 Aaron Gordon (almost all of the non-Jokic minutes, but 6'8 Jeff Green also made a cameo) and the 2020 NBA champion Lakers had 58% of their playoff center minutes filled by 6'10 Anthony Davis and 6'8 Markief Morris.

2024 Celtics? That team is absolutely stacked. But also, they had KP. He didn’t even need to play much, but his presence changes the equation entirely. He gives them size and offensive gravity, the Heat have no answer with just Bam.

2023 Nuggets? Yeah man, they only have Joker, the best player in the world, who is a true center. He completely torched Bam in the Finals—30/14/7 on 67% TS. Bam was stuck taking middies and the Nuggets didn't care one bit.

2022 Warriors? That’s the one example where a smaller lineup actually worked.

2021 Bucks? Are we just forgetting about Brook Lopez? He anchored their drop coverage all playoffs. Giannis and Portis played minutes at the 5, sure but they weren’t being relied on as full-time centers. Brook was the stabilizing force.

The reality is: small ball can work, but it's always an inherent disadvantage that needs to be offset by elite skill, spacing, and defensive execution. You can survive with it but only if you have the shooting, perimeter defense, and IQ to outplay the size mismatch. Miami doesn't.

Bam at the 5 doesn’t give you spacing (at least this hopefully changes) or rim protection and he doesn’t tilt the matchup offensively. Yes, it's a problem, not a solution.

I'm not even advocating for small ball. I've always thought it was a misnomer for what is really happening--prioritizing mobility and versatility in a game that is increasingly defined by spacing and winning advantage on every inch of the court.

I absolutely love the addition of Ware and see a ton of promise with it.

This discourse always turns into posters ignoring the 80%+ similarity in how they see things and fixating on whatever validates their underlying feelings while referencing it over and over again and ignoring the points made by others, so I'm not really interested in it.

If people think any minutes of Bam playing Center in the future is inherent disadvantage then have at it. That's wrong. But, have at it. Bam being able to play with MORE size on the floor alongside him with complementary skillsets is nothing but a good thing. Optionality as to playstyle and being able to have range in how to match up with distinct opponents is great. Miami needs as many of the 5 players on the floor to check as many skillset boxes as possible.

[greg4012]

Just a reminder why you don’t empty the cupboard for players like Dame….

While I feel for Dame, although I really do not because he is about to make nearly $60 million to recover at home… I did want to get in the “I told you so” (and I speak for myself and all the others in here who said Dame would not play up to his contract).

Let this be a reminder this summer as we navigate conversations surrounding players like Durant and what we are willing to give. Also, look at how bad the outlook for the Bucks and Suns currently is… which are teams who emptied their cupboards for players like Dame and Durant.

You waited 2 years after Dame was still balling out and got a fluke achilles injury to post this? You look at the structure of that Phoenix team and still posted this pertaining to KD? Yeah I can never take your opinion seriously anymore.

I waited to the precise time I said this would get ugly…. It was always year 3 and 4 that were a huge red flag, when his contract would spike, his production would likely decline (as supported by historical data of similar players), and injury concerns would rise.

Patience is a virtue. I made a statement 2 years ago that he would not be worth his year 3 and 4 contract. Guess what… we just ended year 2 and as stated two years ago, we already know for a FACT that year 3 and 4 are a problem. We can say with certainty, before the 3rd season even starts that the contract and this situation just got ugly for the Bucks as predicted.

The fact that you can’t take my opinion serious despite it being based on logic and now supported by evidence is exactly why talking ball with you is a lost cause. Even when the evidence is in your face, you deflate and distract by accusing and belittling.

As for the PHX comment… I looked at their situation and logically yes, made this post. How is that not evidence of why emptying the cupboard for a player like KD or Dame is not a great idea. It literally did not work out for the two teams who emptied the cupboard for those two exact players! Baffling to me how that does not qualify as supporting evidence.

Still would have been worth it for Miami for 2 years adding Dame to the mix with Jimmy and Bam. That's 2 years of top tier contention giving Jimmy and Bam the exact running mate they needed to balance out the team dynamic. Yes the back end of the contract always had potential for eating 1-2 hairier seasons. Def not blanket worth it for every team. The fit with Giannis was never as good due to them both needing the ball to impact the game/

[VaDe255]

Andy Ellisburg is the team's GM

As long as Riley’s running the show (president, GM whatever, it’s clear what I mean), a true rebuild isn’t happening.

His entire philosophy is built around winning now. He retools, he reloads, and he chases stars. That’s the Heat way under him: grind, compete, stay relevant. Even after LeBron left, he didn’t blow it up, he doubled down on vets and culture.

The Dragic trade is a perfect example. It gave them a solid player, but it kept them mid while sacrificing future picks that could’ve helped with a real reset. Moves like that show Riley’s always trying to stay competitive, even when a reset might be smarter long term.

Well, its not just a “Pat Riley” philosophy, its the ethos of the organization. The Heat are an insular group, whoever eventually secedes Riles as the figurehead of the organization, not GM, whether thats Zo or someone else from the inner circle is not going to break that trend. And I couldnt really read past the example you provided, Dragic was brought in to be the third piece with Wade and Bosh. That’s a competitive core, Bosh got ill, bad break for us.

Totally, man. Wade was on his last legs, Bosh past his prime, and Dragic as your “third piece”.
That trio wasn’t built for the future, it was built to look competitive while really just keeping the team stuck in the middle.

It was clearly time to reset after the Big 3 era ended, but instead of embracing a rebuild and thinking longterm, they went allin on staying mid. They traded future picks for Dragic to chase a playoff spot. The Bosh health situation was unfortunate but even with him healthy, that core wasn’t winning anything meaningful. The ceiling was 2nd round exit at best.

Also guess what, when you build around aging players, injuries aren’t just bad luck, they’re expected. It’s baked into the risk. Riley and the organization bet on vets, short-term patch jobs, and staying “competitive,” and it’s led to nearly a decade of hovering around the middle. One Finals run in the bubble and and another scrappy finals push with Jimmy were nice, but those are just outliers than signs of anything stable that can last.

At some point, you have to stop doubling down on the past and start building something real for the future. Until the philosophy shifts away from that “always compete” mindset, nothing’s going to change.

[MiamiLoyal926]

You waited 2 years after Dame was still balling out and got a fluke achilles injury to post this? You look at the structure of that Phoenix team and still posted this pertaining to KD? Yeah I can never take your opinion seriously anymore.

I waited to the precise time I said this would get ugly…. It was always year 3 and 4 that were a huge red flag, when his contract would spike, his production would likely decline (as supported by historical data of similar players), and injury concerns would rise.

Patience is a virtue. I made a statement 2 years ago that he would not be worth his year 3 and 4 contract. Guess what… we just ended year 2 and as stated two years ago, we already know for a FACT that year 3 and 4 are a problem. We can say with certainty, before the 3rd season even starts that the contract and this situation just got ugly for the Bucks as predicted.

The fact that you can’t take my opinion serious despite it being based on logic and now supported by evidence is exactly why talking ball with you is a lost cause. Even when the evidence is in your face, you deflate and distract by accusing and belittling.

As for the PHX comment… I looked at their situation and logically yes, made this post. How is that not evidence of why emptying the cupboard for a player like KD or Dame is not a great idea. It literally did not work out for the two teams who emptied the cupboard for those two exact players! Baffling to me how that does not qualify as supporting evidence.

Still would have been worth it for Miami for 2 years adding Dame to the mix with Jimmy and Bam. That's 2 years of top tier contention giving Jimmy and Bam the exact running mate they needed to balance out the team dynamic. Yes the back end of the contract always had potential for eating 1-2 hairier seasons. Def not blanket worth it for every team. The fit with Giannis was never as good due to them both needing the ball to impact the game/

Agreed. And I have a feeling we would have had great success with that trio. Dame did very well(not great) the last two years… and would have been exactly what we needed along an engaged Butler and Bam.

The issue, then, was at what cost? If it came at the cost of every available asset we had then (“emptying the cupboard”), then we would have been screwed if anything did happen on the back end of his deal, with no saving grace at the foot in terms of tradable assets or developing youth.

[Kobewade11]

Totally, man. Wade was on his last legs, Bosh past his prime, and Dragic as your “third piece”.
That trio wasn’t built for the future, it was built to look competitive while really just keeping the team stuck in the middle.

It was clearly time to reset after the Big 3 era ended, but instead of embracing a rebuild and thinking longterm, they went allin on staying mid. They traded future picks for Dragic to chase a playoff spot. The Bosh health situation was unfortunate but even with him healthy, that core wasn’t winning anything meaningful. The ceiling was 2nd round exit at best.

Also guess what, when you build around aging players, injuries aren’t just bad luck, they’re expected. It’s baked into the risk. Riley and the organization bet on vets, short-term patch jobs, and staying “competitive,” and it’s led to nearly a decade of hovering around the middle. One Finals run in the bubble and and another scrappy finals push with Jimmy were nice, but those are just outliers than signs of anything stable that can last.

At some point, you have to stop doubling down on the past and start building something real for the future. Until the philosophy shifts away from that “always compete” mindset, nothing’s going to change.

Respectfully, I disagree. We were a Whiteside injury away from going to the Eastern Conference finals in 2016, that team could have challenged for an Eastern Conference title with Bosh.

[MiamiSun]

The problem is that we have leaned heavily into the young players we drafted the past couple of years. Whether you think this was the right or not, the alternative would have been leaning on veterans that were available. The bubble year we got 2 solid veteran contributors (Crowder and Iggy) for the stretch run. Had we sold off our youth for veterans these past years we would have done better but still not gotten to the promised land. We leaned into the youth and they got rocked. A learning experience for them, but also sometimes after a smack down like that they never recover. I am hoping they tear this down by trading Tyle, Duncan, Rozier, JJJ and draft picks for KD or Giannis, fill the rest of the roster with veteran roll players and ride that for the next 3 years. Ware, Bam, KD and Jokic plus Devion would be hard for teams to match up with.

[greg4012]

As long as Riley’s running the show (president, GM whatever, it’s clear what I mean), a true rebuild isn’t happening.

His entire philosophy is built around winning now. He retools, he reloads, and he chases stars. That’s the Heat way under him: grind, compete, stay relevant. Even after LeBron left, he didn’t blow it up, he doubled down on vets and culture.

The Dragic trade is a perfect example. It gave them a solid player, but it kept them mid while sacrificing future picks that could’ve helped with a real reset. Moves like that show Riley’s always trying to stay competitive, even when a reset might be smarter long term.

Well, its not just a “Pat Riley” philosophy, its the ethos of the organization. The Heat are an insular group, whoever eventually secedes Riles as the figurehead of the organization, not GM, whether thats Zo or someone else from the inner circle is not going to break that trend. And I couldnt really read past the example you provided, Dragic was brought in to be the third piece with Wade and Bosh. That’s a competitive core, Bosh got ill, bad break for us.

Totally, man. Wade was on his last legs, Bosh past his prime, and Dragic as your “third piece”.
That trio wasn’t built for the future, it was built to look competitive while really just keeping the team stuck in the middle.

It was clearly time to reset after the Big 3 era ended, but instead of embracing a rebuild and thinking longterm, they went allin on staying mid. They traded future picks for Dragic to chase a playoff spot. The Bosh health situation was unfortunate but even with him healthy, that core wasn’t winning anything meaningful. The ceiling was 2nd round exit at best.

Also guess what, when you build around aging players, injuries aren’t just bad luck, they’re expected. It’s baked into the risk. Riley and the organization bet on vets, short-term patch jobs, and staying “competitive,” and it’s led to nearly a decade of hovering around the middle. One Finals run in the bubble and a scrappy ECF push with Jimmy were nice, but those are just outliers than signs of anything stable that can last.

At some point, you have to stop doubling down on the past and start building something real for the future. Until the philosophy shifts away from that “always compete” mindset, nothing’s going to change.

To be clear--the injury risk you're referring to manifesting in the Bosh situation was that he got life-threatening blood clots at age 30 (and Dragic was 28 when traded for).

I do agree that building around or trading for older vets comes with an inherently higher risk for injury. Bosh example ain't it tho. Wemby just lost half his season to blood clots at the age of 21.

The Dragic trade was a tricky time with the LeBron drama. Maybe it could have gone better with a blow up and rebuild, but no one could predict or control for the loss of Bosh (and thus eating multiple seasons of max contract producing nothing on the roster). The trickier thing would have been giving up on and potentially trading the franchise GOAT. It happened 2 years later after the Bosh issue tanked the build and most of Miami was in an uproar over it. Doing it 2 years earlier would have probably resulted in riots in the street.

[greg4012]

I waited to the precise time I said this would get ugly…. It was always year 3 and 4 that were a huge red flag, when his contract would spike, his production would likely decline (as supported by historical data of similar players), and injury concerns would rise.

Patience is a virtue. I made a statement 2 years ago that he would not be worth his year 3 and 4 contract. Guess what… we just ended year 2 and as stated two years ago, we already know for a FACT that year 3 and 4 are a problem. We can say with certainty, before the 3rd season even starts that the contract and this situation just got ugly for the Bucks as predicted.

The fact that you can’t take my opinion serious despite it being based on logic and now supported by evidence is exactly why talking ball with you is a lost cause. Even when the evidence is in your face, you deflate and distract by accusing and belittling.

As for the PHX comment… I looked at their situation and logically yes, made this post. How is that not evidence of why emptying the cupboard for a player like KD or Dame is not a great idea. It literally did not work out for the two teams who emptied the cupboard for those two exact players! Baffling to me how that does not qualify as supporting evidence.

Still would have been worth it for Miami for 2 years adding Dame to the mix with Jimmy and Bam. That's 2 years of top tier contention giving Jimmy and Bam the exact running mate they needed to balance out the team dynamic. Yes the back end of the contract always had potential for eating 1-2 hairier seasons. Def not blanket worth it for every team. The fit with Giannis was never as good due to them both needing the ball to impact the game/

Agreed. And I have a feeling we would have had great success with that trio. Dame did very well(not great) the last two years… and would have been exactly what we needed along an engaged Butler and Bam.

The issue, then, was at what cost? If it came at the cost of every available asset we had then (“emptying the cupboard”), then we would have been screwed if anything did happen on the back end of his deal, with no saving grace at the foot in terms of tradable assets or developing youth.

I feel ya. It was an interesting discussion on here as to what the line in the sand should be.

[VaDe255]

Totally, man. Wade was on his last legs, Bosh past his prime, and Dragic as your “third piece”.
That trio wasn’t built for the future, it was built to look competitive while really just keeping the team stuck in the middle.

It was clearly time to reset after the Big 3 era ended, but instead of embracing a rebuild and thinking longterm, they went allin on staying mid. They traded future picks for Dragic to chase a playoff spot. The Bosh health situation was unfortunate but even with him healthy, that core wasn’t winning anything meaningful. The ceiling was 2nd round exit at best.

Also guess what, when you build around aging players, injuries aren’t just bad luck, they’re expected. It’s baked into the risk. Riley and the organization bet on vets, short-term patch jobs, and staying “competitive,” and it’s led to nearly a decade of hovering around the middle. One Finals run in the bubble and and another scrappy finals push with Jimmy were nice, but those are just outliers than signs of anything stable that can last.

At some point, you have to stop doubling down on the past and start building something real for the future. Until the philosophy shifts away from that “always compete” mindset, nothing’s going to change.

Respectfully, I disagree. We were a Whiteside injury away from going to the Eastern Conference finals in 2016, that team could have challenged for an Eastern Conference title with Bosh.

Sure, it's nice to make the ECF, but they have a chance to beat the Cavs/GSW that year?

Yeah, look I'm talking about building a team, which can win a championship in a sustainable way. Not staying mid and maybe make the ECF when the draw just breaks right and you can fluke into it.

[MettaWorldPanda]

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Pat will talk to Bam about KD and Bam will say no brainer.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

You waited 2 years after Dame was still balling out and got a fluke achilles injury to post this? You look at the structure of that Phoenix team and still posted this pertaining to KD? Yeah I can never take your opinion seriously anymore.

I waited to the precise time I said this would get ugly…. It was always year 3 and 4 that were a huge red flag, when his contract would spike, his production would likely decline (as supported by historical data of similar players), and injury concerns would rise.

Patience is a virtue. I made a statement 2 years ago that he would not be worth his year 3 and 4 contract. Guess what… we just ended year 2 and as stated two years ago, we already know for a FACT that year 3 and 4 are a problem. We can say with certainty, before the 3rd season even starts that the contract and this situation just got ugly for the Bucks as predicted.

The fact that you can’t take my opinion serious despite it being based on logic and now supported by evidence is exactly why talking ball with you is a lost cause. Even when the evidence is in your face, you deflate and distract by accusing and belittling.

As for the PHX comment… I looked at their situation and logically yes, made this post. How is that not evidence of why emptying the cupboard for a player like KD or Dame is not a great idea. It literally did not work out for the two teams who emptied the cupboard for those two exact players! Baffling to me how that does not qualify as supporting evidence.

Still would have been worth it for Miami for 2 years adding Dame to the mix with Jimmy and Bam. That's 2 years of top tier contention giving Jimmy and Bam the exact running mate they needed to balance out the team dynamic. Yes the back end of the contract always had potential for eating 1-2 hairier seasons. Def not blanket worth it for every team. The fit with Giannis was never as good due to them both needing the ball to impact the game/

Dames numbers without Giannis these last 2 years were insane, that’s the role he would’ve been in here. May have gotten hurt, may have not. That can be said for anyone.

32-5-9 on 66TS% for Dame without Giannis, no one on the team can match that level of production and every time we play them you can just see the gap in his offensive game compared to anyone we have.

[greg4012]

I waited to the precise time I said this would get ugly…. It was always year 3 and 4 that were a huge red flag, when his contract would spike, his production would likely decline (as supported by historical data of similar players), and injury concerns would rise.

Patience is a virtue. I made a statement 2 years ago that he would not be worth his year 3 and 4 contract. Guess what… we just ended year 2 and as stated two years ago, we already know for a FACT that year 3 and 4 are a problem. We can say with certainty, before the 3rd season even starts that the contract and this situation just got ugly for the Bucks as predicted.

The fact that you can’t take my opinion serious despite it being based on logic and now supported by evidence is exactly why talking ball with you is a lost cause. Even when the evidence is in your face, you deflate and distract by accusing and belittling.

As for the PHX comment… I looked at their situation and logically yes, made this post. How is that not evidence of why emptying the cupboard for a player like KD or Dame is not a great idea. It literally did not work out for the two teams who emptied the cupboard for those two exact players! Baffling to me how that does not qualify as supporting evidence.

Still would have been worth it for Miami for 2 years adding Dame to the mix with Jimmy and Bam. That's 2 years of top tier contention giving Jimmy and Bam the exact running mate they needed to balance out the team dynamic. Yes the back end of the contract always had potential for eating 1-2 hairier seasons. Def not blanket worth it for every team. The fit with Giannis was never as good due to them both needing the ball to impact the game/

Dames numbers without Giannis these last 2 years were insane, that’s the role he would’ve been in here. May have gotten hurt, may have not. That can be said for anyone.

32-5-9 on 66TS% for Dame without Giannis, no one on the team can match that level of production and every time we play them you can just see the gap in his offensive game compared to anyone we have.

The playstyle synergy and force multiplying effect we see with Jimmy playing alongside Steph is as close of a parallel to what it would have been like in Miami with Dame as one can observe.

[MettaWorldPanda]

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Just give me the damn two year window with KD.

[greg4012]

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[3ammy3uck3ts]

Feel bad for Dame honestly, he rushed back when he shouldn’t have and now he’s suffered likely a career ending injury. Maybe not in the literal sense but he is missing all of next season as well and will never be the same, unfortunate. Love him as a player and even though he came back rusty after no ball and being on their blood thinners he was working his ass off on defense to try and make an impact; he really wanted it.

[MettaWorldPanda]

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Spamming KD to Heat lol

[Slot Machine]

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Pat will talk to Bam about KD and Bam will say no brainer.

Why would KD choose to come here when he’ll have multiple other suitors?

[MiamiLoyal926]

I waited to the precise time I said this would get ugly…. It was always year 3 and 4 that were a huge red flag, when his contract would spike, his production would likely decline (as supported by historical data of similar players), and injury concerns would rise.

Patience is a virtue. I made a statement 2 years ago that he would not be worth his year 3 and 4 contract. Guess what… we just ended year 2 and as stated two years ago, we already know for a FACT that year 3 and 4 are a problem. We can say with certainty, before the 3rd season even starts that the contract and this situation just got ugly for the Bucks as predicted.

The fact that you can’t take my opinion serious despite it being based on logic and now supported by evidence is exactly why talking ball with you is a lost cause. Even when the evidence is in your face, you deflate and distract by accusing and belittling.

As for the PHX comment… I looked at their situation and logically yes, made this post. How is that not evidence of why emptying the cupboard for a player like KD or Dame is not a great idea. It literally did not work out for the two teams who emptied the cupboard for those two exact players! Baffling to me how that does not qualify as supporting evidence.

Still would have been worth it for Miami for 2 years adding Dame to the mix with Jimmy and Bam. That's 2 years of top tier contention giving Jimmy and Bam the exact running mate they needed to balance out the team dynamic. Yes the back end of the contract always had potential for eating 1-2 hairier seasons. Def not blanket worth it for every team. The fit with Giannis was never as good due to them both needing the ball to impact the game/

Dames numbers without Giannis these last 2 years were insane, that’s the role he would’ve been in here. May have gotten hurt, may have not. That can be said for anyone.

32-5-9 on 66TS% for Dame without Giannis, no one on the team can match that level of production and every time we play them you can just see the gap in his offensive game compared to anyone we have.

He would have definitely been an overall better fit here than he was next to Giannis… and would have been way more engaged and motivated being on the team and city of his choice. Butler would have also been in the GSW role here, with Dame as his Steph, and Bam as his Draymond.

Sucks for Bucks to have to carry over 50 million in dead weight next year. Hopefully he could bounce back for year 4.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

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Lol.