PG - this is the opposite of fun

[Clyde_Style]

Well I would probably say they are credible to their account but don't know what goes on in practice and probably haven't sat behind every coach in the league to compare how often coaches are drawing up specific plays rather than communicating concepts.

The Knicks run sets. That's undeniable. There's clips of them running plays in this thread.

The issue is that they aren't philosophically rooted in the right objectives.

I specifically asked you if you consider a direct report from behind the bench that Thibs did not draw up any plays during a game as credible. That's more relevant than any player's comments.

Again, you want to talk about feelings. The players feeling this or that about Thibs is not relevant to the issue of whether or not he is actually doing his job.

Anybody with eyes can see he is not managing the team during the game, just blabbering. He so rarely makes strategic in-game adjustments that when he actually does something as simple as keep in the hot hand instead of rotating them to the bench some of the board goes bananas over what a wonderful thing Thibs just did as if it was a magical moment proving he can actually coach. It's a farce.

Forget the players. What matters is WHAT HE IS DOING OR NOT DOING. Saying we do not know what happens in practice is not a rebuttal.

THE GAMES ARE THE EVIDENCE.

Talking about the player's feelings doesn't change the fact Thibs is not actively play calling during games. That's the only thing that matters here, because he's not actually coaching any longer. He's a figurehead.

If he isn't coaching now then he was never coaching because he's been doing the same thing for 30 years.

That's sort of my point.

His grind it out philosophy yields some results up to a point, but there's not really anything more to it.

In today's NBA, if getting effort out of players is your primary contribution then you're just a motivator and that always hits a wall. After that you actually have to coach to go any further.

To say someone is actually coaching a team DURING a game requires making in-game adjustments, something Thibs basically does not do. He has no feel for the games and sticks to the same rotations 90% of the time despite matchup issues.

He's some kind of personnel manager who yells go go go!, but he has little ability to make strategic adjustments in real time which is what a legit coach does.

[Capn'O]

He's some kind of personnel manager who yells go go go!, but he has little ability to make strategic adjustments in real time which is what a legit coach does.

Funny thing - this exact paragraph could have been written about Mike D'Antoni.

[Ravenxvirall]

He's some kind of personnel manager who yells go go go!, but he has little ability to make strategic adjustments in real time which is what a legit coach does.

Funny thing - this exact paragraph could have been written about Mike D'Antoni.

Damn that’s a good one, you are not wrong.

[The KnicksFix]

The fact that Thibs didn’t tell deuce or Mikal to throw the ball off of a piston defender to get jb and hart back in the game if he didn’t want to use a timeout is beyond me. Thibs is a regular season coach or maybe at best an assistant.

[Clyde_Style]

He's some kind of personnel manager who yells go go go!, but he has little ability to make strategic adjustments in real time which is what a legit coach does.

Funny thing - this exact paragraph could have been written about Mike D'Antoni.

That is kind of amusing actually. I was really down on D'Antoni in his last year and a half here.

You may recall I was the one bitching at Mike and saying play that Lin kid dammit, he looks like he can play (he was lighting up Westchester with crazy numbers).

But, yeah, Mike had his one thing and just like Thibs it was tied to a specific set of players. He never replicated Nash and Stat on the Suns or 7SOL to any real effect again.

Linsanity was a gas though. Most fun you could have as a Knicks fan the past 25 years other than that Divo bucket vs. Philly. I still cannot fathom people hating on Lin, but, hey, humans, what can you do?

I just checked and the oldest image in my GIF repository is this one of Pitino

[Ravenxvirall]

He's some kind of personnel manager who yells go go go!, but he has little ability to make strategic adjustments in real time which is what a legit coach does.

Funny thing - this exact paragraph could have been written about Mike D'Antoni.

That is kind of amusing actually. I was really down on D'Antoni in his last year and a half here.

You may recall I was the one bitching at Mike and saying play that Lin kid dammit, he looks like he can play (he was lighting up Westchester with crazy numbers).

But, yeah, Mike had his one thing and just like Thibs it was tied to a specific set of players. He never replicated Nash and Stat on the Suns or 7SOL to any real effect again.

Linsanity was a gas though. Most fun you could have as a Knicks fan the past 25 years other than that Divo bucket vs. Philly. I still cannot fathom people hating on Lin, but, hey, humans, what can you do?

I just checked and the oldest image in my GIF repository is this one of Pitino

Lin was fun as hell me and my wife loved him and Landry fields doing their pregame shake when they brought it out, was so funny

[Ravenxvirall]

If nobody remembers the shake, they put the imaginary glasses on and flipped through imaginary books and a bunch of other **** that ended in a heel tap or something. Always thought it was funny

[HopelessKnick]

All the all-stars, MVP candidates and HOFers who praise him must be among those guys who are confused.

He's not for everyone and I'm not sure he's even right for this team anymore, but he didn't get all those wins and trust of his players by accident.

Guys playing for him now saying nice things about Thibs is hardly the same as former players spilling the beans and telling it like it is.

You can't go by what his nephew Jalen Brunson says about Thibs.

I take whatever Brunson and Hart say about Thibs and drop it into the trash can. It is meaningless.

What about Rose, Taj, Noah, Deng, KG, Pierce, Butler, etc...

Jeff Teague's opinion counts for more than all of them?

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

[spree8]

Did Phil Jackson ever draw up a play? Read and react.

Phil barely called timeouts

This is blasphemy lol. Phil had an actual offensive system. What’s Thibs? Every coach let’s players read n react… but how are you reacting to the defense you’re reading if there’s no structure to your offense?

Also, Phil stayed with the clipboard in his hand constantly drawing things up. This guy did so much with his players.. guys like Randle last year “I never watch film”… would never happen with Phil’s top guys. He didn’t call timeouts often because his guys were actually mentally prepared.. using unorthodox methods like combining movie clips with film sessions to keep interest and practicing meditation, mindfulness etc.

What are we doing here? Resorting to falsely attacking a guy who came in and turned MJ n Pippen + Kobe n Shaq into 3peat champs and has 11 rings, just to defend… Thibs?

[prophet_of_rage]

Did Phil Jackson ever draw up a play? Read and react.

Phil Jackson didn't understand offence. Hence the triangle. But you're right. The 5 out read and react and the triangle are pretty similar. There are set motions in the triangle, though, and you decide from there.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[prophet_of_rage]

Guys playing for him now saying nice things about Thibs is hardly the same as former players spilling the beans and telling it like it is.

You can't go by what his nephew Jalen Brunson says about Thibs.

I take whatever Brunson and Hart say about Thibs and drop it into the trash can. It is meaningless.

What about Rose, Taj, Noah, Deng, KG, Pierce, Butler, etc...

Jeff Teague's opinion counts for more than all of them?

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

So Thibs has a system.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[spree8]

What about Rose, Taj, Noah, Deng, KG, Pierce, Butler, etc...

Jeff Teague's opinion counts for more than all of them?

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

So Thibs has a system.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

[GONYK]

Guys playing for him now saying nice things about Thibs is hardly the same as former players spilling the beans and telling it like it is.

You can't go by what his nephew Jalen Brunson says about Thibs.

I take whatever Brunson and Hart say about Thibs and drop it into the trash can. It is meaningless.

What about Rose, Taj, Noah, Deng, KG, Pierce, Butler, etc...

Jeff Teague's opinion counts for more than all of them?

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

I feel like you are drawing more out of my posts than I'm writing and responding to things I never said.

I will state my personal feelings plainly so there is no confusion:
- I don't think Thibs has maximized the offensive potential of this team and I don't think he will
- I think me made a big bet on Mitch being a source of significant defensive improvement and its had mixed results at best
- I think the team may have outgrown him this season
- I think the players also have to own their role in this

Now that we can put that aside, I also think it is fair to acknowledge that players all over the league who have worked with him says nobody is more committed, works harder or has prepared them better than Thibs. Some of these are the same players who echo the criticisms many on this board have.

So my point is that while he has a set of flaws he also has strengths that those guys praise him for and credit a portion of their success to so let's take all that into account when discussing him.

[DOT]

If Thibs is the best coach in the league at preparation, why are we always so unprepared?

[kNicksGmen]

If Thibs is the best coach in the league at preparation, why are we always so unprepared?

I never understand what this even means. Most prepared in what regard? They watched a lot of film and know what the defensive coverage will be in XYZ scenario? They know if there's 7 seconds left in the quarter what play they're going to run?

It just sounds like a catch phrase at this point. "He has them ready to play" WTF does that even mean?

Results matter at the end of the day. Several games/quarters the knicks come out and have a shot clock violation. It's hilarious.

[GONYK]

If Thibs is the best coach in the league at preparation, why are we always so unprepared?

I have the same question

Especially in a playoff series against the same team.

It's a constant endorsement he gets though.

[HEZI]

In the playoffs Knicks rank 4th in isolation possessions and 9th in points per possession

Want to see the interesting part?

We are actually 2nd in transition possessions right behind OKC but 15th in points per possession which is 2nd worst and our opponent is actually worse as they are last

Middle of the pack in pick and roll plays for the ball handler

Dead last in pick and rolls for the roll man

Detroit has destroyed us in the pick and roll involving their bigs as they are top 5 in possessions and points per possession.

We are ok in isolation
Awful in transition
Awful in rolling to the basket
Awful in protecting the paint on defense

Oh and we can’t shoot

Kind of the same story it’s been all season

[GONYK]

In the playoffs Knicks rank 4th in isolation possessions and 9th in points per possession

Want to see the interesting part?

We are actually 2nd in transition possessions right behind OKC but 15th in points per possession which is 2nd worst and our opponent is actually worse as they are last

Middle of the pack in pick and roll plays for the ball handler

Dead last in pick and rolls for the roll man

Detroit has destroyed us in the pick and roll involving their bigs as they are top 5 in possessions and points per possession.

We are ok in isolation
Awful in transition
Awful in rolling to the basket
Awful in protecting the paint on defense

Oh and we can’t shoot

Kind of the same story it’s been all season

In order of how frequently we run these types of plays

We're 9th in PPP for spot ups (21% FREQ)
We're 6th in PPP (0.1 behind OKC) in PnR for the ball handler (17% FREQ)
We're 9th in PPP for ISO (13% FREQ)
We're 5th in PPP for post ups (6% FREQ)


So basically we're missing a bunch of 3s and otherwise only converting on Brunson finishing PnRs and Towns postups.

We're generating more spot ups than anything else though, because DET is packing the paint. I think the answer is very clearly we should be getting significantly more threes up.

That in turn will open up the 2 play types we are good at converting.

[MrDollarBills]

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

So Thibs has a system.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

I dunno if I can compare Tex Winter's triangle to whatever this is

[MrDollarBills]

In the playoffs Knicks rank 4th in isolation possessions and 9th in points per possession

Want to see the interesting part?

We are actually 2nd in transition possessions right behind OKC but 15th in points per possession which is 2nd worst and our opponent is actually worse as they are last

Middle of the pack in pick and roll plays for the ball handler

Dead last in pick and rolls for the roll man

Detroit has destroyed us in the pick and roll involving their bigs as they are top 5 in possessions and points per possession.

We are ok in isolation
Awful in transition
Awful in rolling to the basket
Awful in protecting the paint on defense

Oh and we can’t shoot

Kind of the same story it’s been all season

In order of how frequently we run these types of plays

We're 9th in PPP for spot ups (21% FREQ)
We're 6th in PPP (0.1 behind OKC) in PnR for the ball handler (17% FREQ)
We're 9th in PPP for ISO (13% FREQ)
We're 5th in PPP for post ups (6% FREQ)


So basically we're missing a bunch of 3s and otherwise only converting on Brunson finishing PnRs and Towns postups.

We're generating more spot ups than anything else though, because DET is packing the paint. I think the answer is very clearly we should be getting significantly more threes up.

That in turn will open up the 2 play types we are good at converting.

Agreed 100%