PG - this is the opposite of fun

[prophet_of_rage]

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

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What purpose does he serve if his system is simply to put the ball in his best players' hand and just live with the results? Couldn't any coach do that?

All coaches do. It isn't about the ball. It's about the off ball movement and how you get your best player into position. Thibs' system needs you to be very high IQ.

The Nova boys ran a similar system in college. Four out one in. Figure it out with a couple rules like the two bigs never being on the same side of the floor.

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[HopelessKnick]

I feel like you are drawing more out of my posts than I'm writing and responding to things I never said.

I will state my personal feelings plainly so there is no confusion:
- I don't think Thibs has maximized the offensive potential of this team and I don't think he will
- I think me made a big bet on Mitch being a source of significant defensive improvement and its had mixed results at best
- I think the team may have outgrown him this season
- I think the players also have to own their role in this

Now that we can put that aside, I also think it is fair to acknowledge that players all over the league who have worked with him says nobody is more committed, works harder or has prepared them better than Thibs. Some of these are the same players who echo the criticisms many on this board have.

So my point is that while he has a set of flaws he also has strengths that those guys praise him for and credit a portion of their success to so let's take all that into account when discussing him.

Fair enough. The bolded leads me though to the question which I asked numerous times since Mitch's return. I remember just prior to his return Thibs gave an interview saying that he hasn't had his projected starting Center the entire season etc. It sounded like, after an initial ramp up etc. he would try the line-up with Mitch and KAT but it never happened. Why? Some guys that like and defend Thibs sid he is likely saving it up for the playoffs to have that surprise effect but clearly this is not the case.

What adds to me being frustrated by this is: The team has been playing progressivley worse since december. We are a .500 team after the all-star break while being pretty much locked into our position for months. He had ample opportunity to try stuff like Mitch in the line-up. Heck we had OG out, we had Brunson out but he simply refused to do it after complaining not having his projected starting Center. Really made zero sense and I have yet to see anybody make any sense out of it. Has Precious been so bad that he is truly unplayable off the bench (even for 15minutes) that he needed to keep Mitch as the only bench big?

Personally, I always took the "projected starting C" comment to mean that Mitch was the projected C before we got KAT. The whole point of KAT is to play him at the 5, where he's a walking mismatch. If we traded for KAT just to recreate the Timberwolves, that is a failure, so I don't think the plan was ever for Mitch to start. I do think the plan was to lean into Mitch lineups when the matchups/siutations called for it though.

We have been playing progressively worse because we haven't made any adjustments to counteract teams guarding KAT with a wing. There are things to counteract that and get us back to a great offense and there are things to do on defense. Thibs has chosen to do neither nor experiment with lineups to know what he has in his back pocket. He's basically asked KAT to become a different player and I think the team's inconsistency all kind of stems from that particular point of stubbornness.

Instead we got a bastardized lineup where Hart is the 5 instead of Mitch or KAT, which has effects on both ends.

Ah ok, I really got this differently but like I said in my previous post---not following the "around the game" as tight as others here so I may have missed it. If what you are say is true I genuinely have to say I feel even more negative on the whole direction the team has taken:

The Wolves took KAT with the first pick of the draft and played him at the 5 for like 6-7 straight seasons (with LaVine and Butler at times in the line-up and Thibs as coach) but they had little to no success with it really. They decided KAT could only work at the 4 because he provides zero rim protection and little defense....like you could hide those deficiencies next to a true starting 5 providing rim protection and defense. And it worked out for them. They won close to 60 games and went to the WCF. That was literally their most successful season since they went to the WCF with Garnett. Something even KG accomplished just once in his tenure there I believe.

So why would the Knicks go back and try something which the Wolves tried for 7 straight seasons, with very good star players around KAT but failed to make work? I truly hope this is not what the FO is envisioning because if that is the thinking they'll likely throw away next season as well. KAT at the 5 is NOT going to work out. The defense with him there looks completely putrid. Like I have zero confidence of the Knicks making stops there. Damn GoNYK, you made me even less confident about the Knicks going forward. I at least hope this is only a Thibs thing...but given his preference for defensive 5s , even I have trouble attributing this to him alone. Depressing. Wow...I was waiting for Mitch back because I thought the idea is to impose size and wing-stops on the Celtics:

JB
Bridges
OG
KAT
Mitch

with Hart, Deuce, Precious, Payne off the bench....looks I have completely living in an illusion....

[prophet_of_rage]

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

Everyone knows who Tex Winter is and what he did, but you’re using that to diminish Phil and calling him merely a talent manager who couldn’t change, just so you can put Thibs on his level… that’s truly insane and screams “I don’t know what I’m talking about” when it comes to Phil Jackson.

Call me when Thibs is forward thinking enough to get an innovator of an offense as his assistant and studies his system, has the balls to implement it, has his players be students of the game, thinks outside the box and does unorthodox things to get his players to put their ego aside and buy in, play together, and perform on another level than they have been for years, becomes a master of strategy and in-game management/adjustments, and wins 11 championships with 2 franchises and 3 rosters.

“Ball in my best players hands, read and react” couldn’t be further from a winning system. Please stop

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Phil is a talent manager. He is not an offensive guru. That doesn't mean I'm putting Thibs on his level. Thibs is above average. He isn't a talent manager. He is a film nerd of the Riley tree.

But his system is read and react and get the ball to my best player. If every one of his teams looks like this then it is his system. Read and react won for Golden State. The system is like the Princeton. Everybody has to be high IQ and move. It's an okay system. But it is a system. People failed copying the triangle because they don't have the personnel.

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[GONYK]

Fair enough. The bolded leads me though to the question which I asked numerous times since Mitch's return. I remember just prior to his return Thibs gave an interview saying that he hasn't had his projected starting Center the entire season etc. It sounded like, after an initial ramp up etc. he would try the line-up with Mitch and KAT but it never happened. Why? Some guys that like and defend Thibs sid he is likely saving it up for the playoffs to have that surprise effect but clearly this is not the case.

What adds to me being frustrated by this is: The team has been playing progressivley worse since december. We are a .500 team after the all-star break while being pretty much locked into our position for months. He had ample opportunity to try stuff like Mitch in the line-up. Heck we had OG out, we had Brunson out but he simply refused to do it after complaining not having his projected starting Center. Really made zero sense and I have yet to see anybody make any sense out of it. Has Precious been so bad that he is truly unplayable off the bench (even for 15minutes) that he needed to keep Mitch as the only bench big?

Personally, I always took the "projected starting C" comment to mean that Mitch was the projected C before we got KAT. The whole point of KAT is to play him at the 5, where he's a walking mismatch. If we traded for KAT just to recreate the Timberwolves, that is a failure, so I don't think the plan was ever for Mitch to start. I do think the plan was to lean into Mitch lineups when the matchups/siutations called for it though.

We have been playing progressively worse because we haven't made any adjustments to counteract teams guarding KAT with a wing. There are things to counteract that and get us back to a great offense and there are things to do on defense. Thibs has chosen to do neither nor experiment with lineups to know what he has in his back pocket. He's basically asked KAT to become a different player and I think the team's inconsistency all kind of stems from that particular point of stubbornness.

Instead we got a bastardized lineup where Hart is the 5 instead of Mitch or KAT, which has effects on both ends.

Ah ok, I really got this differently but like I said in my previous post---not following the "around the game" as tight as others here so I may have missed it. If what you are say is true I genuinely have to say I feel even more negative on the whole direction the team has taken:

The Wolves took KAT with the first pick of the draft and played him at the 5 for like 6-7 straight seasons (with LaVine and Butler at times in the line-up and Thibs as coach) but they had little to no success with it really. They decided KAT could only work at the 4 because he provides zero rim protection and little defense....like you could hide those deficiencies next to a true starting 5 providing rim protection and defense. And it worked out for them. They won close to 60 games and went to the WCF. That was literally their most successful season since they went to the WCF with Garnett. Something even KG accomplished just once in his tenure there I believe.

So why would the Knicks go back and try something which the Wolves tried for 7 straight seasons, with very good star players around KAT but failed to make work? I truly hope this is not what the FO is envisioning because if that is the thinking they'll likely throw away next season as well. KAT at the 5 is NOT going to work out. The defense with him there looks completely putrid. Like I have zero confidence of the Knicks making stops there. Damn GoNYK, you made me even less confident about the Knicks going forward. I at least hope this is only a Thibs thing...but given his preference for defensive 5s , even I have trouble attributing this to him alone. Depressing. Wow...I was waiting for Mitch back because I thought the idea is to impose size and wing-stops on the Celtics:

JB
Bridges
OG
KAT
Mitch

with Hart, Deuce, Precious, Payne off the bench....looks I have completely living in an illusion....

I think the bet is that to beat Boston, you have to be able to score with them. Even our squad last year was not going to be able to put up 125ppg. You have to play 5 out really and you have to shoot with volume. Mitch will get played off the floor in a Boston series.

So they got KAT, who is the best offensive stretch 5 they could have possibly hoped to acquire. He's a bad fit defensively, but the gamble was that Mikal and OG are switch enough to keep wings from consistently breaking down the defense. If we would just get to a top 15 defense in the league, then we're following the Denver model pretty closely.

Thibs did not adjust his gameplan to this philosophy. He continued to play drop defense, which is probably because he didn't want to run two defensive systems all season (one without Mitch and one with Mitch), but it put KAT in a bad position, which means Mikal had to become a POA defender when he's really better on the wing, which then has affects all down the line, because Jalen is now on a wing.

Then Thibs didn't adjust when teams started guarding Hart with their C.

So all in all, we only had KAT as true 5 for the first 3 months of the season, where we were the 2nd best scoring offense in NBA history, and then after that the league adjusted and we didn't counter.

So I don't think the Knicks FO will feel like they really got to prove out the concept this season.

[Capn'O]

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

Everyone knows who Tex Winter is and what he did, but you’re using that to diminish Phil and calling him merely a talent manager who couldn’t change, just so you can put Thibs on his level… that’s truly insane and screams “I don’t know what I’m talking about” when it comes to Phil Jackson.

Call me when Thibs is forward thinking enough to get an innovator of an offense as his assistant and studies his system, has the balls to implement it, has his players be students of the game, thinks outside the box and does unorthodox things to get his players to put their ego aside and buy in, play together, and perform on another level than they have been for years, becomes a master of strategy and in-game management/adjustments, and wins 11 championships with 2 franchises and 3 rosters.

“Ball in my best players hands, read and react” couldn’t be further from a winning system. Please stop

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Phil is a talent manager. He is not an offensive guru. That doesn't mean I'm putting Thibs on his level. Thibs is above average. He isn't a talent manager. He is a film nerd of the Riley tree.

But his system is read and react and get the ball to my best player. If every one of his teams looks like this then it is his system. Read and react won for Golden State. The system is like the Princeton. Everybody has to be high IQ and move. It's an okay system. But it is a system. People failed copying the triangle because they don't have the personnel.

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Do you have a read on why he doesn't use KAT in the pinch much? I think he'd be very effective there with his ability to post, shoot, pass as a stationary, cut... Thibs obviously values those actions vis a vis iHart and Noah.

[prophet_of_rage]

Everyone knows who Tex Winter is and what he did, but you’re using that to diminish Phil and calling him merely a talent manager who couldn’t change, just so you can put Thibs on his level… that’s truly insane and screams “I don’t know what I’m talking about” when it comes to Phil Jackson.

Call me when Thibs is forward thinking enough to get an innovator of an offense as his assistant and studies his system, has the balls to implement it, has his players be students of the game, thinks outside the box and does unorthodox things to get his players to put their ego aside and buy in, play together, and perform on another level than they have been for years, becomes a master of strategy and in-game management/adjustments, and wins 11 championships with 2 franchises and 3 rosters.

“Ball in my best players hands, read and react” couldn’t be further from a winning system. Please stop

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Phil is a talent manager. He is not an offensive guru. That doesn't mean I'm putting Thibs on his level. Thibs is above average. He isn't a talent manager. He is a film nerd of the Riley tree.

But his system is read and react and get the ball to my best player. If every one of his teams looks like this then it is his system. Read and react won for Golden State. The system is like the Princeton. Everybody has to be high IQ and move. It's an okay system. But it is a system. People failed copying the triangle because they don't have the personnel.

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Do you have a read on why he doesn't use KAT in the pinch much? I think he'd be deadly. Thibs obviously values those actions vis a vis iHart and Noah.

I don't think KAT likes it there or at least isn't used to playing there. I think hi lo is the best play in the game. Maybe KAT can't move fast enough in the pinch due to his feet. Or maybe JB doesn't like playing pinch post.

It's definitely an option. But I don't see Thibs fighting a player to run a specific action. That's his biggest weakness.

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[Capn'O]

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Phil is a talent manager. He is not an offensive guru. That doesn't mean I'm putting Thibs on his level. Thibs is above average. He isn't a talent manager. He is a film nerd of the Riley tree.

But his system is read and react and get the ball to my best player. If every one of his teams looks like this then it is his system. Read and react won for Golden State. The system is like the Princeton. Everybody has to be high IQ and move. It's an okay system. But it is a system. People failed copying the triangle because they don't have the personnel.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

Do you have a read on why he doesn't use KAT in the pinch much? I think he'd be deadly. Thibs obviously values those actions vis a vis iHart and Noah.

I don't think KAT likes it there or at least isn't used to playing there. I think hi lo is the best play in the game. Maybe KAT can't move fast enough in the pinch due to his feet. Or maybe JB doesn't like playing pinch post.

It's definitely an option. But I don't see Thibs fighting a player to run a specific action. That's his biggest weakness.

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You could be on to something with player preferences. JB's not really an entry passer or lob thrower and KAT loves his threes/straight line drives. I've seen KAT be so successful with pinch actions and other hi/lo that I keep expecting us to spam it after it works and we never do.

[prophet_of_rage]

Do you have a read on why he doesn't use KAT in the pinch much? I think he'd be deadly. Thibs obviously values those actions vis a vis iHart and Noah.

I don't think KAT likes it there or at least isn't used to playing there. I think hi lo is the best play in the game. Maybe KAT can't move fast enough in the pinch due to his feet. Or maybe JB doesn't like playing pinch post.

It's definitely an option. But I don't see Thibs fighting a player to run a specific action. That's his biggest weakness.

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You could be on to something with player preferences. JB's not really an entry passer or lob thrower and KAT loves his threes/straight line drives. I've seen KAT be so successful with pinch actions and other hi/lo that I keep expecting us to spam it after it works and we never do.

If you listen to the players they say they talk about the best passes, etc. And then if you go back and remember Thibs spent a year with GS learning modern offence to get a job again you can put it together that Thibs has given the offence to his players.

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[spree8]

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

Everyone knows who Tex Winter is and what he did, but you’re using that to diminish Phil and calling him merely a talent manager who couldn’t change, just so you can put Thibs on his level… that’s truly insane and screams “I don’t know what I’m talking about” when it comes to Phil Jackson.

Call me when Thibs is forward thinking enough to get an innovator of an offense as his assistant and studies his system, has the balls to implement it, has his players be students of the game, thinks outside the box and does unorthodox things to get his players to put their ego aside and buy in, play together, and perform on another level than they have been for years, becomes a master of strategy and in-game management/adjustments, and wins 11 championships with 2 franchises and 3 rosters.

“Ball in my best players hands, read and react” couldn’t be further from a winning system. Please stop

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Phil is a talent manager. He is not an offensive guru. That doesn't mean I'm putting Thibs on his level. Thibs is above average. He isn't a talent manager. He is a film nerd of the Riley tree.

But his system is read and react and get the ball to my best player. If every one of his teams looks like this then it is his system. Read and react won for Golden State. The system is like the Princeton. Everybody has to be high IQ and move. It's an okay system. But it is a system. People failed copying the triangle because they don't have the personnel.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

What aren’t you saying at all? I never said Phil was an offensive guru, but he’s a whole helluva lot more than just a talent manager. You keep repeating that which is showing you’re missing the whole picture. To think someone could just trivialize such an accomplished coach to that degree is astounding.

Thibs never coached under Riley either.

I said what Thibs is running couldn’t be further from a winning system.

I also don’t think I’d call what we’re running the Princeton offense. Too much stagnation, selfishness, iso, poor/low IQ decisions, and jacking up last second shots to beat the clock. Sure there’s some backdoor cuts, DHO’s, screens, etc, but a lot of times these guys look lost out there… like last game where KAT n Hart were looking at each other deciding what to do and KAT tossed his hands up like “I dunno” … it’s a shyt show at times.

The Warriors never do just any one thing… it’s not just a rigid read n react offense… they run a lot of different concepts and principles… even triangle, motion, split action, etc.

[HopelessKnick]

Personally, I always took the "projected starting C" comment to mean that Mitch was the projected C before we got KAT. The whole point of KAT is to play him at the 5, where he's a walking mismatch. If we traded for KAT just to recreate the Timberwolves, that is a failure, so I don't think the plan was ever for Mitch to start. I do think the plan was to lean into Mitch lineups when the matchups/siutations called for it though.

We have been playing progressively worse because we haven't made any adjustments to counteract teams guarding KAT with a wing. There are things to counteract that and get us back to a great offense and there are things to do on defense. Thibs has chosen to do neither nor experiment with lineups to know what he has in his back pocket. He's basically asked KAT to become a different player and I think the team's inconsistency all kind of stems from that particular point of stubbornness.

Instead we got a bastardized lineup where Hart is the 5 instead of Mitch or KAT, which has effects on both ends.

Ah ok, I really got this differently but like I said in my previous post---not following the "around the game" as tight as others here so I may have missed it. If what you are say is true I genuinely have to say I feel even more negative on the whole direction the team has taken:

The Wolves took KAT with the first pick of the draft and played him at the 5 for like 6-7 straight seasons (with LaVine and Butler at times in the line-up and Thibs as coach) but they had little to no success with it really. They decided KAT could only work at the 4 because he provides zero rim protection and little defense....like you could hide those deficiencies next to a true starting 5 providing rim protection and defense. And it worked out for them. They won close to 60 games and went to the WCF. That was literally their most successful season since they went to the WCF with Garnett. Something even KG accomplished just once in his tenure there I believe.

So why would the Knicks go back and try something which the Wolves tried for 7 straight seasons, with very good star players around KAT but failed to make work? I truly hope this is not what the FO is envisioning because if that is the thinking they'll likely throw away next season as well. KAT at the 5 is NOT going to work out. The defense with him there looks completely putrid. Like I have zero confidence of the Knicks making stops there. Damn GoNYK, you made me even less confident about the Knicks going forward. I at least hope this is only a Thibs thing...but given his preference for defensive 5s , even I have trouble attributing this to him alone. Depressing. Wow...I was waiting for Mitch back because I thought the idea is to impose size and wing-stops on the Celtics:

JB
Bridges
OG
KAT
Mitch

with Hart, Deuce, Precious, Payne off the bench....looks I have completely living in an illusion....

I think the bet is that to beat Boston, you have to be able to score with them. Even our squad last year was not going to be able to put up 125ppg. You have to play 5 out really and you have to shoot with volume. Mitch will get played off the floor in a Boston series.

So they got KAT, who is the best offensive stretch 5 they could have possibly hoped to acquire. He's a bad fit defensively, but the gamble was that Mikal and OG are switch enough to keep wings from consistently breaking down the defense. If we would just get to a top 15 defense in the league, then we're following the Denver model pretty closely.

Thibs did not adjust his gameplan to this philosophy. He continued to play drop defense, which is probably because he didn't want to run two defensive systems all season (one without Mitch and one with Mitch), but it put KAT in a bad position, which means Mikal had to become a POA defender when he's really better on the wing, which then has affects all down the line, because Jalen is now on a wing.

Then Thibs didn't adjust when teams started guarding Hart with their C.

So all in all, we only had KAT as true 5 for the first 3 months of the season, where we were the 2nd best scoring offense in NBA history, and then after that the league adjusted and we didn't counter.

So I don't think the Knicks FO will feel like they really got to prove out the concept this season.

OK, thanks for clearing it up. If what you are explaining was/is indeed the strategy then I completely disagree with it. Simply put: We are not going to beat a team consisting of 6 two-way players that can defend and score and mostly shoot while countering it with 2-3 guys that play only offense and 2-3 additional guys that are inconsistent scorers. If you want to beat Boston you have to throw a different look at them. The Buck won the title with Lopez and Giannis in there, the Lakers won with Davis in there, the Wolves had their most successful season in decades with Gobert/KAT, OKC had a historic season with Hartenstein in there, Dallas went to the finals with 2 non shooting big men....most elite teams have a defensive big in there...Golden State won 5 titles with Looney and Green in there...you can win in this league with non-shooting big man.....if what you are saying is really what the Knicks FO is planning and thinking then we are in for this type of outcome unttil they change their thinking....this is not going to be successful....now if KAT was at least a competent defender that could guard the switch and protect the rim a little I could see how one would try it...but it won't work out with KAT's level of defense...like Minnesota proved for 7 years before abandoning it.

[HopelessKnick]

Watch on YouTube

This is what really irks me in the whole Thibs discussion. I watched the entie postgame show with CP. He was really impolite to callers criticizing Thibs and really come off as super unfriendly. Then his whole argument is: "This is on the players. They came out flat and they didn't bring it." It revolves around the old "Play harder" type of argument. What is the solution? "Play harder, fight harder. Rebound. Whatever." There is like no real solution, just the "do things harder" "Bring it" "Play with energy" type of line.

At one point he was adament on Thibs having outcoached Bickerstaff.

1) Everyone here and around the game agrees that the Knicks are more talented than the Pistons. Some (including me) see a big talent gap some a smaller one but I have yet to find anyone suggesting the Pistons are even or more talented. We have played the Pistons 9 times this season and lost 5, and really 6 times with the missed Hardaway call. Like are you going to put all 9 games on the players? Like every sane person....if you underperform against a team so many times would be looking at the guy calling the shots right? It would make no sense at some point blaming the players.

2) And then he and George (watch the Clip) proceed to put it on the players. "I would put it on the players...." ---and then George proceeds to identify fatigue as the main reason behind it. Like reeaaalllyy? You are putting it on the players and excusing Thibs and then give fatigue as the underlying cause which completely destroys your own argument. Like can fatigue be the players fault? Isn't the line "Thibs runs his players in to the ground, so they have nothing left for the playoffs....he overvalues the regular season and underachieves in the playoffs.." isn't that like the main main main criticism on Thibs? How can you blissfully ignore it, make no coherent argument and then put it out there? If you identify fatigue as the main reason then surely you must be looking at the Thibs experience, right? Really this incoherent type of arguments where a guy completely contradicts himself within two minutes of argument really irk me.

[prophet_of_rage]

Everyone knows who Tex Winter is and what he did, but you’re using that to diminish Phil and calling him merely a talent manager who couldn’t change, just so you can put Thibs on his level… that’s truly insane and screams “I don’t know what I’m talking about” when it comes to Phil Jackson.

Call me when Thibs is forward thinking enough to get an innovator of an offense as his assistant and studies his system, has the balls to implement it, has his players be students of the game, thinks outside the box and does unorthodox things to get his players to put their ego aside and buy in, play together, and perform on another level than they have been for years, becomes a master of strategy and in-game management/adjustments, and wins 11 championships with 2 franchises and 3 rosters.

“Ball in my best players hands, read and react” couldn’t be further from a winning system. Please stop

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Phil is a talent manager. He is not an offensive guru. That doesn't mean I'm putting Thibs on his level. Thibs is above average. He isn't a talent manager. He is a film nerd of the Riley tree.

But his system is read and react and get the ball to my best player. If every one of his teams looks like this then it is his system. Read and react won for Golden State. The system is like the Princeton. Everybody has to be high IQ and move. It's an okay system. But it is a system. People failed copying the triangle because they don't have the personnel.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

What aren’t you saying at all? I never said Phil was an offensive guru, but he’s a whole helluva lot more than just a talent manager. You keep repeating that which is showing you’re missing the whole picture. To think someone could just trivialize such an accomplished coach to that degree is astounding.

Thibs never coached under Riley either.

I said what Thibs is running couldn’t be further from a winning system.

I also don’t think I’d call what we’re running the Princeton offense. Too much stagnation, selfishness, iso, poor/low IQ decisions, and jacking up last second shots to beat the clock. Sure there’s some backdoor cuts, DHO’s, screens, etc, but a lot of times these guys look lost out there… like last game where KAT n Hart were looking at each other deciding what to do and KAT tossed his hands up like “I dunno” … it’s a shyt show at times.

The Warriors never do just any one thing… it’s not just a rigid read n react offense… they run a lot of different concepts and principles… even triangle, motion, split action, etc.

You're stuck wanting an argument. Tree Riley-JVG-Thibs.

Phil Javkson's main sttength is as a talent manager, getting people to buy in and sacrific for the group. You kniw this. What else isnhe famous for? The triangle is Tex Winter's offence and we see teams like Cleveland who tried to duplicate it failed. Hotnacek and Pgil tried it here. Failed.

No team in the league runs a pattern offence any more. It's all rrad and react. The Warriors look better because they've been together longer and are smarter.

I don't care if you think Phil is a greater coach than Thibs. I agree, but Phil could only coach one way, too. And didn't have offe sive versatility. Go find me some Phil special plays, please.

And ai don't care if you bought into the mysticism of the triangle. Thibs still has a system. You juat hate it.

Peace.

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[K_ick_God]

The main culprit if you want to find one is Bridges. If dude was an assertive player with guts and reliable shots, the Knicks would be 5x better. KAT has his quirks as a player but so does like Jaylen Brown. Or even Brunson with his periodic outages and weak ankles.

If Mikal was good, it would cover up all the crap that Thibs can’t do and give the two main guys help. Bridges is playing like a guy who should be out of your rotation, let alone not being a quality third scorer. A total fold.

[JayTWill]

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

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What purpose does he serve if his system is simply to put the ball in his best players' hand and just live with the results? Couldn't any coach do that?

All coaches do. It isn't about the ball. It's about the off ball movement and how you get your best player into position. Thibs' system needs you to be very high IQ.

The Nova boys ran a similar system in college. Four out one in. Figure it out with a couple rules like the two bigs never being on the same side of the floor.

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Yeah, I have been critical of Thibs offense for years but I thought some that may have been the bball IQ of some of the players he has had on his rosters. When we obtained the Nova guys I expected a different type of offense seeing as they came from a 4 or 5 out motion offense yet it still devolves into a slow ugly grind it out offense with one guy generating a difficult shot while everyone else stands around far too often. It rarely looks fluid or functional against tougher matchups.

Villanova's offense was a high volume 3 point offense with constant spacing and re-locating off-ball. When I think of read and react offense I think of
a lot of motion and screening. You will see a ton of possessions for the Knicks where someone like OG just runs to the corner and stands there the entire possession. No matter the personnel they never seem to play like a high IQ team imo which makes me wonder how much of it is just because of Thibs.

[prophet_of_rage]

What purpose does he serve if his system is simply to put the ball in his best players' hand and just live with the results? Couldn't any coach do that?

All coaches do. It isn't about the ball. It's about the off ball movement and how you get your best player into position. Thibs' system needs you to be very high IQ.

The Nova boys ran a similar system in college. Four out one in. Figure it out with a couple rules like the two bigs never being on the same side of the floor.

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Yeah, I have been critical of Thibs offense for years but I thought some that may have been the bball IQ of some of the players he has had on his rosters. When we obtained the Nova guys I expected a different type of offense seeing as they came from a 4 or 5 out motion offense yet it still devolves into a slow ugly grind it out offense with one guy generating a difficult shot while everyone else stands around far too often. It rarely looks fluid or functional against tougher matchups.

Villanova's offense was a high volume 3 point offense with constant spacing and re-locating off-ball. When I think of read and react offense I think of
a lot of motion and screening. You will see a ton of possessions for the Knicks where someone like OG just runs to the corner and stands there the entire possession. No matter the personnel they never seem to play like a high IQ team imo which makes me wonder how much of it is just because of Thibs.

I think it devolves. We don't practice a lot so you're really reinforcing during play. It's to fall into a few repetitive actions.

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[spree8]

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Phil is a talent manager. He is not an offensive guru. That doesn't mean I'm putting Thibs on his level. Thibs is above average. He isn't a talent manager. He is a film nerd of the Riley tree.

But his system is read and react and get the ball to my best player. If every one of his teams looks like this then it is his system. Read and react won for Golden State. The system is like the Princeton. Everybody has to be high IQ and move. It's an okay system. But it is a system. People failed copying the triangle because they don't have the personnel.

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What aren’t you saying at all? I never said Phil was an offensive guru, but he’s a whole helluva lot more than just a talent manager. You keep repeating that which is showing you’re missing the whole picture. To think someone could just trivialize such an accomplished coach to that degree is astounding.

Thibs never coached under Riley either.

I said what Thibs is running couldn’t be further from a winning system.

I also don’t think I’d call what we’re running the Princeton offense. Too much stagnation, selfishness, iso, poor/low IQ decisions, and jacking up last second shots to beat the clock. Sure there’s some backdoor cuts, DHO’s, screens, etc, but a lot of times these guys look lost out there… like last game where KAT n Hart were looking at each other deciding what to do and KAT tossed his hands up like “I dunno” … it’s a shyt show at times.

The Warriors never do just any one thing… it’s not just a rigid read n react offense… they run a lot of different concepts and principles… even triangle, motion, split action, etc.

You're stuck wanting an argument. Tree Riley-JVG-Thibs.

Phil Javkson's main sttength is as a talent manager, getting people to buy in and sacrific for the group. You kniw this. What else isnhe famous for? The triangle is Tex Winter's offence and we see teams like Cleveland who tried to duplicate it failed. Hotnacek and Pgil tried it here. Failed.

No team in the league runs a pattern offence any more. It's all rrad and react. The Warriors look better because they've been together longer and are smarter.

I don't care if you think Phil is a greater coach than Thibs. I agree, but Phil could only coach one way, too. And didn't have offe sive versatility. Go find me some Phil special plays, please.

And ai don't care if you bought into the mysticism of the triangle. Thibs still has a system. You juat hate it.

Peace.

Sent from my SM-S938W using RealGM mobile app

iight bet… Phil special play… 1994 PO vs us, designed play to have rookie Kukoc take the game winner over Pippen.

You’re straw manning like crazy here tho… I never bought into the mysticism of the triangle lol and I dunno why you gotta keep repeating “Thibs has a system!”… I don’t hate it, it just doesn’t work.

You’re the one that brought up the Warriors winning a championship using read n react out of the blue, if every team is doing the exact same thing, why bring them up? And then why call what Thibs is running the Princeton offense?

Today’s game is more like MMA… yes no pattern offenses/Boxer vs Kickboxer, Wrestler vs BJJ, etc, guys are just well rounded with almost everything, and every team uses a kind of blended system built on interlocking concepts and shared principles instead of Triangle vs SSOL. Some use certain things more than others and also play to their personnel’s strengths. Which is why we need a new coach because Thibs doesn’t know how to use what he’s got to work worth.

[prophet_of_rage]

What aren’t you saying at all? I never said Phil was an offensive guru, but he’s a whole helluva lot more than just a talent manager. You keep repeating that which is showing you’re missing the whole picture. To think someone could just trivialize such an accomplished coach to that degree is astounding.

Thibs never coached under Riley either.

I said what Thibs is running couldn’t be further from a winning system.

I also don’t think I’d call what we’re running the Princeton offense. Too much stagnation, selfishness, iso, poor/low IQ decisions, and jacking up last second shots to beat the clock. Sure there’s some backdoor cuts, DHO’s, screens, etc, but a lot of times these guys look lost out there… like last game where KAT n Hart were looking at each other deciding what to do and KAT tossed his hands up like “I dunno” … it’s a shyt show at times.

The Warriors never do just any one thing… it’s not just a rigid read n react offense… they run a lot of different concepts and principles… even triangle, motion, split action, etc.

You're stuck wanting an argument. Tree Riley-JVG-Thibs.

Phil Javkson's main sttength is as a talent manager, getting people to buy in and sacrific for the group. You kniw this. What else isnhe famous for? The triangle is Tex Winter's offence and we see teams like Cleveland who tried to duplicate it failed. Hotnacek and Pgil tried it here. Failed.

No team in the league runs a pattern offence any more. It's all rrad and react. The Warriors look better because they've been together longer and are smarter.

I don't care if you think Phil is a greater coach than Thibs. I agree, but Phil could only coach one way, too. And didn't have offe sive versatility. Go find me some Phil special plays, please.

And ai don't care if you bought into the mysticism of the triangle. Thibs still has a system. You juat hate it.

Peace.

Sent from my SM-S938W using RealGM mobile app

iight bet… Phil special play… 1994 PO vs us, designed play to have rookie Kukoc take the game winner over Pippen.

You’re straw manning like crazy here tho… I never bought into the mysticism of the triangle lol and I dunno why you gotta keep repeating “Thibs has a system!”… I don’t hate it, it just doesn’t work.

You’re the one that brought up the Warriors winning a championship using read n react out of the blue, if every team is doing the exact same thing, why bring them up? And then why call what Thibs is running the Princeton offense?

Today’s game is more like MMA… yes no pattern offenses/Boxer vs Kickboxer, Wrestler vs BJJ, etc, guys are just well rounded with almost everything, and every team uses a kind of blended system built on interlocking concepts and shared principles instead of Triangle vs SSOL. Some use certain things more than others and also play to their personnel’s strengths. Which is why we need a new coach because Thibs doesn’t know how to use what he’s got to work worth.

Lawd Jesus, when did I call our offence the Princeton? I said it is like the Princeton where you hsve to have a high IQ to make it look good.

The one play you can think of is an ATO? When has the triangle not been working and Phil switched the offence? When did he go in the lab and tweak the system. Not ever.

I brought up the Warriors because Thibs studied their offence for a year to modernise his coaching. Our offence is pretty much theirs. We don't run as many actions because we haven't been together so long and we're not that smart.

Ironically you say I am trivialising Phil as you trivialise Thibs. Arguing to win rather than to learn.

You started this being upset that I compared Thibs and Phil with a wrongheaded thought that I was saying they were equal. I never said any such thing. And now you're still going. Whatever it is you want to read pretend I wrote it and piss off with your attitude.



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[spree8]

You're stuck wanting an argument. Tree Riley-JVG-Thibs.

Phil Javkson's main sttength is as a talent manager, getting people to buy in and sacrific for the group. You kniw this. What else isnhe famous for? The triangle is Tex Winter's offence and we see teams like Cleveland who tried to duplicate it failed. Hotnacek and Pgil tried it here. Failed.

No team in the league runs a pattern offence any more. It's all rrad and react. The Warriors look better because they've been together longer and are smarter.

I don't care if you think Phil is a greater coach than Thibs. I agree, but Phil could only coach one way, too. And didn't have offe sive versatility. Go find me some Phil special plays, please.

And ai don't care if you bought into the mysticism of the triangle. Thibs still has a system. You juat hate it.

Peace.

Sent from my SM-S938W using RealGM mobile app

iight bet… Phil special play… 1994 PO vs us, designed play to have rookie Kukoc take the game winner over Pippen.

You’re straw manning like crazy here tho… I never bought into the mysticism of the triangle lol and I dunno why you gotta keep repeating “Thibs has a system!”… I don’t hate it, it just doesn’t work.

You’re the one that brought up the Warriors winning a championship using read n react out of the blue, if every team is doing the exact same thing, why bring them up? And then why call what Thibs is running the Princeton offense?

Today’s game is more like MMA… yes no pattern offenses/Boxer vs Kickboxer, Wrestler vs BJJ, etc, guys are just well rounded with almost everything, and every team uses a kind of blended system built on interlocking concepts and shared principles instead of Triangle vs SSOL. Some use certain things more than others and also play to their personnel’s strengths. Which is why we need a new coach because Thibs doesn’t know how to use what he’s got to work worth.

Lawd Jesus, when did I call our offence the Princeton? I said it is like the Princeton where you hsve to have a high IQ to make it look good.

The one play you can think of is an ATO? When has the triangle not been working and Phil switched the offence? When did he go in the lab and tweak the system. Not ever.

I brought up the Warriors because Thibs studied their offence for a year to modernise his coaching. Our offence is pretty much theirs. We don't run as many actions because we haven't been together so long and we're not that smart.

Ironically you say I am trivialising Phil as you trivialise Thibs. Arguing to win rather than to learn.

You started this being upset that I compared Thibs and Phil with a wrongheaded thought that I was saying they were equal. I never said any such thing. And now you're still going. Whatever it is you want to read pretend I wrote it and piss off with your attitude.



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Learn? What exactly?

I didn’t have an attitude at all tho lol. You asked for a play from Phil so I gave you one off the top that everyone knows, now you’re moving the goalposts. Because at first, he wasn’t an x’s n o’s guy, he’s just a talent manager, but now that I reference something he drew up to beat us, now you want me to go thru the history books to dig out more. Ok.

And now we have the same offense as the Warriors? My god man, what are you watching? They shoot like a dozen more 3’s per game in the PO than we do for starters lol (they’re top 2 in the RS, we’re bottom 3). Thibs learned some things, but if you think it’s a carbon copy, then this is worse than I thought.

Go watch the game man..