The LeBron James All-NBA (2nd) and Luka Doncic - 24-25 Thread

[Ian Scuffling]

His entire Lakers career with the exception of the 2020 postseason where he got over 4 months of rest to recuperate his body before the playoffs, he's been a shell of his prime self. The decline was in full effect starting in 2018-19 but people refused to see it. The general statistical inflation helped his case. People saw similar numbers and assumed a similar level of play but his impact fell off dramatically.

The weirdest thing you see on forums like this is people calling him a top 5 player but then refusing to hold him to that standard.

Completely agree. That goes for the trolls as well. He hasn't been THAT Lebron for a while. He's still a very good NBA player, though, which is amazing for his age.

[nzahir]

I thought Gabe was good. I think Lakers need a starting 3+D guard and a starting C.

PG: -------- | Gabe | Bronny
SG: Reaves | Goodwin
SF: Luka | DFS
PF: LeBron | Rui
C : -------- | Hayes


Trade Vando, Klebe and Knecht for starting guard and center

Gabe had 0 pts the last 2 games and scored 14 POINTS IN 5 **** GAMES

He looked shook, him and Vando

He can be better and was decent at times with Luka, but not for 11M. His best asset is he will be an expiring

I wonder if we try and get Dennis again this summer and consider a Reaves move, but it may be too risky

[DorianRo]

We'll take Luka in San Antone. Watch how fast Pops and team gets his rear end in check and in shape. Luka/Wemby? Forget it.. Instant dynasty

[thebigbird]

His entire Lakers career with the exception of the 2020 postseason where he got over 4 months of rest to recuperate his body before the playoffs, he's been a shell of his prime self. The decline was in full effect starting in 2018-19 but people refused to see it. The general statistical inflation helped his case. People saw similar numbers and assumed a similar level of play but his impact fell off dramatically.

The weirdest thing you see on forums like this is people calling him a top 5 player but then refusing to hold him to that standard.

Giannis is a top 5 player in his prime. He just lost in the first round too. Kawhi is down 3-2 after being up 2-1. Yet the hate is directed toward the 40 year old while the only discourse on Giannis is about if he’ll demand a trade.

LeBron played very well in the playoffs. The numbers have him as a top 5 or so player in the first round. Basketball is a team game, and this Lakers team was not built whatsoever to face a team like Minnesota.

[Mos_Heat]

Lebron got outplayed by Julius Randle. He's clearly not a 5-10 player

[tsherkin]

Lebron got outplayed by Julius Randle. He's clearly not a 5-10 player

Did he, though?

I mean, sure. Lebron isn't a top-5 player anymore. And probably more like top-15 overall at this point. But I don't think Randle outplayed him at all. Maybe in the final game, when he was gassed from trying to be the defensive anchor at 40, but in the series as a whole, definitely not.

[Djoker]

His entire Lakers career with the exception of the 2020 postseason where he got over 4 months of rest to recuperate his body before the playoffs, he's been a shell of his prime self. The decline was in full effect starting in 2018-19 but people refused to see it. The general statistical inflation helped his case. People saw similar numbers and assumed a similar level of play but his impact fell off dramatically.

The weirdest thing you see on forums like this is people calling him a top 5 player but then refusing to hold him to that standard.

Giannis is a top 5 player in his prime. He just lost in the first round too. Kawhi is down 3-2 after being up 2-1. Yet the hate is directed toward the 40 year old while the only discourse on Giannis is about if he’ll demand a trade.

LeBron played very well in the playoffs. The numbers have him as a top 5 or so player in the first round. Basketball is a team game, and this Lakers team was not built whatsoever to face a team like Minnesota.

Hate is directed at Lebron because people are still pretending he's a top 5 or so player. He's nowhere near that and probably hasn't been since 2018-19 with the exception of the 2020 playoffs. Not sure where the numbers have him but him being gassed by the 4th quarters is a big reason the Lakers lost this series. Not the only reason of course but a big reason.

The Lakers were also solid favorites going into the series.

If you'd like to make a case that he's still a top 5 player, I'm all ears but that is an extremely tough case to make IMO. Top 15 is reasonable and where I am comfortable putting him. And in that context, he didn't underperform and yes it is impressive to be a top 15 player at age 40.

[AEnigma]

His entire Lakers career with the exception of the 2020 postseason where he got over 4 months of rest to recuperate his body before the playoffs, he's been a shell of his prime self. The decline was in full effect starting in 2018-19 but people refused to see it. The general statistical inflation helped his case. People saw similar numbers and assumed a similar level of play but his impact fell off dramatically.

The weirdest thing you see on forums like this is people calling him a top 5 player but then refusing to hold him to that standard.

Hate is directed at Lebron because people are still pretending he's a top 5 or so player. He's nowhere near that and probably hasn't been since 2018-19 with the exception of the 2020 playoffs.

Being a fringe top five player is a shell of his prime self. This was the first year that the “dramatic impact fall” was legitimately true (unless you have a dramatic definition of “dramatic”), and even then that requires some of the very popular narrativising where we try to explain significant impact swings which are at substantial odds with the year to year change in league relative production (since you are so concerned about “statistical inflation”).

The bigger issue is that in three of these five Lakers postseasons, Lebron went into the postseason fresh off an injury (I assume you are talking strictly postseason here, because the idea he was not a top five player before the Solomon Hill injury would be too farcical even for someone committed to downplaying him). Which is part of being old and limits how good he is, but this is comical rewriting of his actual quality of play. And then you lazily gesture at “statistical inflation” as if that is somehow unique to Lebron rather than to an entire league which has consistently failed to outpace his production in the postseason over this Lakers stretch.

[Fadeaway_J]

His entire Lakers career with the exception of the 2020 postseason where he got over 4 months of rest to recuperate his body before the playoffs, he's been a shell of his prime self. The decline was in full effect starting in 2018-19 but people refused to see it. The general statistical inflation helped his case. People saw similar numbers and assumed a similar level of play but his impact fell off dramatically.

The weirdest thing you see on forums like this is people calling him a top 5 player but then refusing to hold him to that standard.

Giannis is a top 5 player in his prime. He just lost in the first round too. Kawhi is down 3-2 after being up 2-1. Yet the hate is directed toward the 40 year old while the only discourse on Giannis is about if he’ll demand a trade.

LeBron played very well in the playoffs. The numbers have him as a top 5 or so player in the first round. Basketball is a team game, and this Lakers team was not built whatsoever to face a team like Minnesota.

Hate is directed at Lebron because people are still pretending he's a top 5 or so player. He's nowhere near that and probably hasn't been since 2018-19 with the exception of the 2020 playoffs. Not sure where the numbers have him but him being gassed by the 4th quarters is a big reason the Lakers lost this series. Not the only reason of course but a big reason.

The Lakers were also solid favorites going into the series.

If you'd like to make a case that he's still a top 5 player, I'm all ears but that is an extremely tough case to make IMO. Top 15 is reasonable and where I am comfortable putting him. And in that context, he didn't underperform and yes it is impressive to be a top 15 player at age 40.

OK, I'm not a LeBron fan but the part in bold is comically incorrect.

[thebigbird]

His entire Lakers career with the exception of the 2020 postseason where he got over 4 months of rest to recuperate his body before the playoffs, he's been a shell of his prime self. The decline was in full effect starting in 2018-19 but people refused to see it. The general statistical inflation helped his case. People saw similar numbers and assumed a similar level of play but his impact fell off dramatically.

The weirdest thing you see on forums like this is people calling him a top 5 player but then refusing to hold him to that standard.

Giannis is a top 5 player in his prime. He just lost in the first round too. Kawhi is down 3-2 after being up 2-1. Yet the hate is directed toward the 40 year old while the only discourse on Giannis is about if he’ll demand a trade.

LeBron played very well in the playoffs. The numbers have him as a top 5 or so player in the first round. Basketball is a team game, and this Lakers team was not built whatsoever to face a team like Minnesota.

Hate is directed at Lebron because people are still pretending he's a top 5 or so player. He's nowhere near that and probably hasn't been since 2018-19 with the exception of the 2020 playoffs. Not sure where the numbers have him but him being gassed by the 4th quarters is a big reason the Lakers lost this series. Not the only reason of course but a big reason.

The Lakers were also solid favorites going into the series.

If you'd like to make a case that he's still a top 5 player, I'm all ears but that is an extremely tough case to make IMO. Top 15 is reasonable and where I am comfortable putting him. And in that context, he didn't underperform and yes it is impressive to be a top 15 player at age 40.

I mean it just isn’t true at all that he hasn’t been “anywhere near” a top 5 player since 2018/2019. He had an argument for BITW until Solomon Hill dove on his ankle like a football in 2021. He was first team all-NBA and the Lakers were the 1 seed and dominant the entire 2019-2020 season. The next season he was starting to make an MVP case until he got taken out.

Ever since then he’s been bogged down with injuries, as well as the Westbrick disaster and generally poorly constructed rosters. He was gassed in the fourth quarters in this year’s playoffs because the Lakers crappy roster required him to play defense at an all-NBA level for the team to have a chance. Luka is considered a unanimous top 5 player yet I’d argue LeBron outplayed him by a sizable amount in this series, particular when you consider Luka being an absolute traffic cone defensively.

[AEnigma]

^This is while reliably being and playing like one of the two best defenders on the team.

2020 aside, does that all reflect a dip from his prime years? Absolutely. Is he more likely to have underwhelming or low energy games/quarters? No question. But this being less impressive than what you see from legitimate MVP performers like Jokic and Giannis (who has been entirely absent for several postseason games) does not mean this is not generally top five-to-ten calibre play. The problem with the Lakers is their roster requires a lot more than that to seriously compete for a title with this post-injury version of Lebron. Without elite defence and more than one other capable playoff performer, no one is making this team look like a regular contender.

[Djoker]

Giannis is a top 5 player in his prime. He just lost in the first round too. Kawhi is down 3-2 after being up 2-1. Yet the hate is directed toward the 40 year old while the only discourse on Giannis is about if he’ll demand a trade.

LeBron played very well in the playoffs. The numbers have him as a top 5 or so player in the first round. Basketball is a team game, and this Lakers team was not built whatsoever to face a team like Minnesota.

Hate is directed at Lebron because people are still pretending he's a top 5 or so player. He's nowhere near that and probably hasn't been since 2018-19 with the exception of the 2020 playoffs. Not sure where the numbers have him but him being gassed by the 4th quarters is a big reason the Lakers lost this series. Not the only reason of course but a big reason.

The Lakers were also solid favorites going into the series.

If you'd like to make a case that he's still a top 5 player, I'm all ears but that is an extremely tough case to make IMO. Top 15 is reasonable and where I am comfortable putting him. And in that context, he didn't underperform and yes it is impressive to be a top 15 player at age 40.

I mean it just isn’t true at all that he hasn’t been “anywhere near” a top 5 player since 2018/2019. He had an argument for BITW until Solomon Hill dove on his ankle like a football in 2021. He was first team all-NBA and the Lakers were the 1 seed and dominant the entire 2019-2020 season. The next season he was starting to make an MVP case until he got taken out.

Ever since then he’s been bogged down with injuries, as well as the Westbrick disaster and generally poorly constructed rosters. He was gassed in the fourth quarters in this year’s playoffs because the Lakers crappy roster required him to play defense at an all-NBA level for the team to have a chance. Luka is considered a unanimous top 5 player yet I’d argue LeBron outplayed him by a sizable amount in this series, particular when you consider Luka being an absolute traffic cone defensively.

"Nowhere near" was in reference to this season specifically but he wasn't consistently a top 5 player since 2018-19 (again excluding the 2020 playoffs). Sure he had stretches where you can say that he was but many players have such stretches. In 2020-21, he ended up 2nd Team All-NBA that year and finished 13th in MVP voting. And then had a poor postseason showing against the Suns. Injuries were a big reason for that but looking at that year start to finish, there is hardly an argument for Lebron to be top 5. Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Curry, and KD were all clearly better. It goes back to what I said. He wasn't consistently top 5. Outside of 2020, you could make a good case for half a season or something but not one whole season start to finish. BITW shouts in 2020-21 came from the 2020 postseason (playoff Lebron!) not based on how he was playing in the moment. Kind of how people now say "Man when Kawhi is healthy, he's still top 5 in the world." That doesn't mean Kawhi is actually top 5 right now. Again consistency is my point here and consistency builds expectations.

And yea it's a whole other discussion but I wouldn't agree that Lebron outplayed Luka in this series. With Luka ON Lebron OFF, the Lakers have done a lot better than with Luka OFF Lebron ON. And not just in this series but since the trade in general. Lebron was better defensively but he also took a ton of possessions off on that end and Luka was clearly better offensively. Although I will add that both guys didn't play as well as their stats. Both were getting fatigued and underperforming in 4th quarters of close games and it is a pretty massive negative IMO.

[AEnigma]

Oh so I was giving you too much credit.

Lebron finished second in MVP voting for the 2020 regular season, and if anything, the timing of the COVID shutdown hurt his own chance to win the award (since Giannis had just been injured). And he was right back at it in 2021 until the Hill injury, and it is fine to say he should not get credit for a partial season in that sense, but no, that is not what you are doing, because you would rather push this back to some magical abstraction in 2019 instead of the obvious prime-killing injury we saw just four years ago.

Sad stuff.

[Djoker]

^This is while reliably being and playing like one of the two best defenders on the team.

2020 aside, does that all reflect a dip from his prime years? Absolutely. Is he more likely to have underwhelming or low energy games/quarters? No question. But this being less impressive than what you see from legitimate MVP performers like Jokic and Giannis (who has been entirely absent for several postseason games) does not mean this is not generally top five-to-ten calibre play. The problem with the Lakers is their roster requires a lot more than that to seriously compete for a title with this post-injury version of Lebron. Without elite defence and more than one other capable playoff performer, no one is making this team look like a regular contender.

Think that 2025 data is missing Game 5...

Anyways, pool the numbers from 2021-2025 PS, we get 24.0/8.4/6.8 per 75 on about +2 rTS.

That's not top 5 quality play.

If you want to argue fringe top 10 like he's the #9 or #10 best player in the league, go for it. I can get on board with that and in fact I've called Lebron a top 10 player before this season when he's top 15. But top 10 is a different discussion than top 5.

EDIT: Signs of decline for Lebron were there before the Solomon Hill injury in 2021. I think he was no longer in his prime from 2018-19 onwards. Plausible argument that if the COVID shutdown never happens and he doesn't get a 4-month break, Lebron never has the dominant PS that he had in 2020.

[parsnips33]

The roster construction questions for the Lakers are gonna be very interesting. The idea of Luka taking a huge offensive load to allow LeBron to play more of a secondary role on that end and lock in on defense is compelling, but what does the rest of the roster need to look like? Has Reaves maxed out or is there room for him to grow?

[Special_Puppy]

Where I'd rank LeBron from 2019 to 2023
2019: 12
2020: 3
2021: 8
2022: 7
2023: 13

[AEnigma]

^This is while reliably being and playing like one of the two best defenders on the team.

2020 aside, does that all reflect a dip from his prime years? Absolutely. Is he more likely to have underwhelming or low energy games/quarters? No question. But this being less impressive than what you see from legitimate MVP performers like Jokic and Giannis (who has been entirely absent for several postseason games) does not mean this is not generally top five-to-ten calibre play. The problem with the Lakers is their roster requires a lot more than that to seriously compete for a title with this post-injury version of Lebron. Without elite defence and more than one other capable playoff performer, no one is making this team look like a regular contender.

Think that 2025 data is missing Game 5...

Anyways, pool the numbers from 2021-2025 PS, we get 24.0/8.4/6.8 per 75 on about +2 rTS.

That's not top 5 quality play.

That is Jayson Tatum quality play on a substantially worse roster. I do not think you have actually thought through what these scales are or should be past a gut feeling — and to the extent you have, I suspect it is heavily predicated on the scoring side of things. And hey, the reduced scoring is why he has not been an MVP-level player in the postseason since the Hill injury, but only two or three guys really have been over that stretch.

[Ian Scuffling]

Great conversation and what's crazy about it is that it's about a 35 to 40 year old player. I mean, talk about rewriting the narrative on older NBA players, especially wings. Truly, his GOAT and/or Mt. Rushmore evidence is growing larger. Haters and other assorted trolls hardest hit

[Lakers824]

Disappointing end to Lebrons season. 3rd 1st round exit in the last 4 playoff appearances. And another loss with homecourt advantage.

The title window is closing because he'll be further away from his prime and slower than he was this year.

[mademan]

Zach Lowe brought up a point about DFS...he's gonna have a lot of leverage in negotiating a deal this summer with LA as they really cant lose him. He might be able to get himself a 4/80 Caruso type deal, and with Reaves/Luka's next contract, thats gonna put the Lakers at the cap threshold with three guys (only 1 being a star), even without Lebron