RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bovice]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

so if a player wins the balloon d'or 12 times and leads his league is scoring every year and has a bunch of league titles and champions league titles but his home country is Ghana or Switzerland he'll basically have no shot at winning the world cup therefore will never be goat. interesting

[Astaluego]

I'd say Messi over the very overrated Ronaldo myself. Messi has won the World Cup, the most converted trophy in all of world sports. Cry baby Ronnie hasn't.

Also I suspect many LeBron Stans are also Ronaldo lovers and I think this thread will be locked soon when it descends onto an utter **** lol

I also pick MJ over LeBron, but the gap is closer

I also think Messi is considerably better, although I think what CR7 has done is very meritorious and achieved through sweat and work, while Leo was blessed. Surely winning the World Cup is the perfect finishing touch to Messi's career, although it is unfair to compare him to CR7 in that aspect. Football is a team sport, not so much about individuals, and Argentina is a power and a much bigger country than Portugal and they had already won 2 World Cups before Leo was born.

[Drakeem]

Messi and Ronaldo are LeBron and Steph, Jordan and LeBron are Maradona and Messi.

Came to say something along these lines. Ronaldo is great but he's not in that Pele/Messi/Maradona conversation, just ever so slightly below. Bron and Jordan are too comparable and are becoming widely considered the locked in 1/2 greatest (depending on your preference).

[Astaluego]

CR7 is more like Lebron... his greatest virtues are his superior physique, his tireless, almost sickly (without the almost) work ethic, his nutritional gurus, and his very long careers... Leo is MJ... blessed by the gods, with a super aesthetic and effective game.

[-Luke-]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

so if a player wins the balloon d'or 12 times and leads his league is scoring every year and has a bunch of league titles and champions league titles but his home country is Ghana or Switzerland he'll basically have no shot at winning the world cup therefore will never be goat. interesting

I think the World Cup argument is a weak one as well.

For example, many football fans believe that Pelé is the GOAT because he's the only one who won the World Cup three times. I'm not arguing that Pelé doesn't have a GOAT case, he has one for sure. But not because of the three World Cups. In one of them (1962) he got injured in the second match and missed the rest of the tournament. It was Garrincha who led Brazil to the title, not Pelé. Somehow this is rarely mentioned when people make the "only one to ever win three" case. It's like if Jordan gets injured in the first round in 1998 and Pippen leads the Bulls to the title and Jordan gets the credit for the sixth title because he played 50 minutes in a sweep against the Nets.

Also, it's literally a tournament that happens every four years. So seven games every four years decide whether Messi is the GOAT over CR? When Messi played on better teams?

I also don't understand what the number of people watching on TV has to do with it.

[NoStatsGuy]

i go back and forth on the LeBron vs. Jordan debate, because what LeBron did is ofc insane, and his longevity is amazing too, however realistically he hasn't been an impactful winning player for a while now and the idea of a LeBron James team contender hasn't been true since 2021. He just stuck around and played. The longevity argument is great, but at the same time Jordan came back after 3 years of not doing anything, and he was still a very good NBA player. In LeBron's case, he stuck it out, and I don't doubt for a moment that Jordan could not have kept playing like LeBron, but for Jordan his passion was unrivaled and I mean the passion to win and compete is what made him the GOAT. In LeBron's case, he lacked the same pinnacle perfectionism of a Jordan. LeBron was the best version of what an NBA career should be. Jordan is what people will think of when they say "he was the greatest of all time", and the reason why was because of his dominance. So the argument on Jordan vs. LeBron is dominance vs. longevity and when it comes to "GREATEST" dominance tied with enough longevity will beat out pure longevity. LeBron was dominant too, but he wasn't as dominant as Jordan, and Jordan did 6 finals in a row, and I don't doubt for a minute, Jordan could have done 8 in a row comparable to what LeBron did in the 2010s, but his passion outside the game of basketball made him bigger than the game of basketball. LeBron is nothing but the game of basketball.

So going back to the OP comparison, Messi vs. Ronaldo, I don't personally watch much of their sport, but from looking online, the comparison seems much less pronounced. The global game of football is one that is spread into so many different leagues and accomplishments that I don't know how to quantify either of their accomplishments. It seems to consensus is Messi is the better overall player even if Ronaldo scored better? The measure of LeBron vs. Jordan is a more extreme measure of longevity vs. domination and I don't know who was the more dominant player during their peak, but I'd assume Ronaldo? However the sport is vastly different, both players are still playing, it's hard to measure true value in a game like soccer which seems much more team dependent than basketball where 1 guy can carry the team.

Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano. Like Jordan over LeBron at their peaks.

Not at all. Cristiano Ronaldo had one of the most dominant stretches in football history:

- Champions League three-peat: 2016, 2017, 2018
- Ballon d’Or wins: 2016, 2017
- UEFA Euro champion: 2016
- All-time Champions League top scorer
- Most goals in a single UCL season: 17 goals (2013–14)

The Champions League is the equivalent of the NBA playoffs—it eclipses domestic achievements in terms of prestige, with Europe’s best clubs battling it out.

Yes, Messi won the World Cup, which is why I personally rank him ahead overall. But in terms of peak dominance—especially in clutch, high-stakes games—Ronaldo’s peak was more impactful.

i completely agree with you here. they are neck and neck. but honestly? why do people put so much into the world cup? Is it ronaldo's fault, that his generation of portugese footballers couldnt get it done? its not like in basketball. 1 soccer player barely makes a difference. yes, they can have dominant games. but one single basketball player has so much more impact on the game, than one single football player. a baskebtall player is in every play on offense and defense, hes part of every possession (when we talk goats), you cannot say that about football players.

imo both the lebron-mj debate and the messi-ronaldo debate can go both ways. neither in basketball nor in soccer we have a clear cut undisputed goat. we can just give our opinions but we wont find something we all agree on.

i have MJ and Messi but i could not tell which is the bigger gap, because i personally would accept arguments for lebron and ronaldo aswell.

[Iwasawitness]

Did Messi form super teams and still come up short?

Yes, actually. Quite a few times.

Although one could say they both played on superteams basically their entire careers. Messi had a stronger team earlier in his career, then Ronaldo moved to Madrid and eventually caught up, they were both part of trios (MSN, BBC) with star forwards, and then Ronaldo had a slightly stronger team in the late 2010s. And then there’s the international debate. Ultimately both played on elite teams at basically every juncture.

I wouldn’t even attempt to use the superteam argument in a Messi/Ronaldo debate as both played on incredibly rich and stacked teams.

So did Jordan lol

[Got em Coach]

Also, it's literally a tournament that happens every four years. So seven games every four years decide whether Messi is the GOAT over CR? When Messi played on better teams?

This. Messi was born into a country that generally has a stronger national team.

[Gregoire]

i go back and forth on the LeBron vs. Jordan debate, because what LeBron did is ofc insane, and his longevity is amazing too, however realistically he hasn't been an impactful winning player for a while now and the idea of a LeBron James team contender hasn't been true since 2021. He just stuck around and played. The longevity argument is great, but at the same time Jordan came back after 3 years of not doing anything, and he was still a very good NBA player. In LeBron's case, he stuck it out, and I don't doubt for a moment that Jordan could not have kept playing like LeBron, but for Jordan his passion was unrivaled and I mean the passion to win and compete is what made him the GOAT. In LeBron's case, he lacked the same pinnacle perfectionism of a Jordan. LeBron was the best version of what an NBA career should be. Jordan is what people will think of when they say "he was the greatest of all time", and the reason why was because of his dominance. So the argument on Jordan vs. LeBron is dominance vs. longevity and when it comes to "GREATEST" dominance tied with enough longevity will beat out pure longevity. LeBron was dominant too, but he wasn't as dominant as Jordan, and Jordan did 6 finals in a row, and I don't doubt for a minute, Jordan could have done 8 in a row comparable to what LeBron did in the 2010s, but his passion outside the game of basketball made him bigger than the game of basketball. LeBron is nothing but the game of basketball.

So going back to the OP comparison, Messi vs. Ronaldo, I don't personally watch much of their sport, but from looking online, the comparison seems much less pronounced. The global game of football is one that is spread into so many different leagues and accomplishments that I don't know how to quantify either of their accomplishments. It seems to consensus is Messi is the better overall player even if Ronaldo scored better? The measure of LeBron vs. Jordan is a more extreme measure of longevity vs. domination and I don't know who was the more dominant player during their peak, but I'd assume Ronaldo? However the sport is vastly different, both players are still playing, it's hard to measure true value in a game like soccer which seems much more team dependent than basketball where 1 guy can carry the team.

Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano. Like Jordan over LeBron at their peaks.

Not at all. Cristiano Ronaldo had one of the most dominant stretches in football history:

- Champions League three-peat: 2016, 2017, 2018
- Ballon d’Or wins: 2016, 2017
- UEFA Euro champion: 2016
- All-time Champions League top scorer
- Most goals in a single UCL season: 17 goals (2013–14)

The Champions League is the equivalent of the NBA playoffs—it eclipses domestic achievements in terms of prestige, with Europe’s best clubs battling it out.

Yes, Messi won the World Cup, which is why I personally rank him ahead overall. But in terms of peak dominance—especially in clutch, high-stakes games—Ronaldo’s peak was more impactful.

Not close. Peak Messi was another level than peak Ronaldo. Ronaldo was just poacher in the superteam, Messi impact was ball carrier+assists+goals. Its like compare Magic or Curry or LeBron, who creates gravity and make the difference with someone like Dantley or Melo.

In high-stakes games and clutch... lets compare Messi and CR7 stats in WC and Copa/Euro pllayoffs. Messi won more LaLiga titles despite being in generally worse team. And he won comparable CL titles with comparable stats in finals. Actually in most stakes game between them Messi won (CL final). In h2h matches Messi also way ahead.

[bledredwine]

Did Messi form super teams and still come up short?

Yes, actually. Quite a few times.

Although one could say they both played on superteams basically their entire careers. Messi had a stronger team earlier in his career, then Ronaldo moved to Madrid and eventually caught up, they were both part of trios (MSN, BBC) with star forwards, and then Ronaldo had a slightly stronger team in the late 2010s. And then there’s the international debate. Ultimately both played on elite teams at basically every juncture.

I wouldn’t even attempt to use the superteam argument in a Messi/Ronaldo debate as both played on incredibly rich and stacked teams.

Well, that's why Maridona is my GOAT anyway

[bledredwine]

Did Messi form super teams and still come up short?

Yes, actually. Quite a few times.

Although one could say they both played on superteams basically their entire careers. Messi had a stronger team earlier in his career, then Ronaldo moved to Madrid and eventually caught up, they were both part of trios (MSN, BBC) with star forwards, and then Ronaldo had a slightly stronger team in the late 2010s. And then there’s the international debate. Ultimately both played on elite teams at basically every juncture.

I wouldn’t even attempt to use the superteam argument in a Messi/Ronaldo debate as both played on incredibly rich and stacked teams.

So did Jordan lol

lol no. That's literally a narrative started by Lebron fans as an excuse to compare the two. It was never a narrative in the 90s.

Even the PC forum ranked Rodman as a top 100 player. Only insane people try to rank him higher. Those of us who watched know.

[EmpireFalls]

CR7 is more like Lebron... his greatest virtues are his superior physique, his tireless, almost sickly (without the almost) work ethic, his nutritional gurus, and his very long careers... Leo is MJ... blessed by the gods, with a super aesthetic and effective game.

I actually disagree in terms of playstyle. CR7 is the volume scoring play finisher who doesn’t have the ball as much, whereas Messi is the ball dominant creator type where everything runs through him.

Jordan ~ CR7 and Messi ~ LeBron if we were to compare playstyle (but obviously doing cross sport comparisons are very flawed)

[sp6r=underrated]

If we talking about peaks and careers, majority fans and observers have Messi and Jordan as GOATs and LeBron and Cristiano are in 2-5 range (with Russell, Kareem, Wilt ect and Pele, Maradona, Cruyff ect respectively). But which gap are wider now : between Messi and Ronaldo or Jordan and LeBron?

I know nothing about soccer but I have Lebron over MJ and the gap between MJ and Kareem is considerably smaller.

[Snakebites]

This thread takes a very contested point (Jordan over LeBron) as a given.

Which makes it my least favorite kind if thread outside of threads purely intended to troll.

Unless...

[sp6r=underrated]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

so if a player wins the balloon d'or 12 times and leads his league is scoring every year and has a bunch of league titles and champions league titles but his home country is Ghana or Switzerland he'll basically have no shot at winning the world cup therefore will never be goat. interesting

I think the World Cup argument is a weak one as well.

For example, many football fans believe that Pelé is the GOAT because he's the only one who won the World Cup three times. I'm not arguing that Pelé doesn't have a GOAT case, he has one for sure. But not because of the three World Cups. In one of them (1962) he got injured in the second match and missed the rest of the tournament. It was Garrincha who led Brazil to the title, not Pelé. Somehow this is rarely mentioned when people make the "only one to ever win three" case. It's like if Jordan gets injured in the first round in 1998 and Pippen leads the Bulls to the title and Jordan gets the credit for the sixth title because he played 50 minutes in a sweep against the Nets.

Also, it's literally a tournament that happens every four years. So seven games every four years decide whether Messi is the GOAT over CR? When Messi played on better teams?

I also don't understand what the number of people watching on TV has to do with it.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the World Cup's importance but I know nothing about soccer.

Is soccer a high variance game? Most low scoring sports are high variance games. Isn't there a wide talent gap between countries at the world cup?

Deciding the GOAT off a tournament, no matter how popular, that happens every 4 years hits me as nutty. Deciding the GOAT off a tournament, no matter how popular, that has massive talent differences between countries hits me as nutty. Deciding the GOAT off a tournament, no matter how popular, in a high variance sport hits me as nutty.

[sp6r=underrated]

Yes, actually. Quite a few times.

Although one could say they both played on superteams basically their entire careers. Messi had a stronger team earlier in his career, then Ronaldo moved to Madrid and eventually caught up, they were both part of trios (MSN, BBC) with star forwards, and then Ronaldo had a slightly stronger team in the late 2010s. And then there’s the international debate. Ultimately both played on elite teams at basically every juncture.

I wouldn’t even attempt to use the superteam argument in a Messi/Ronaldo debate as both played on incredibly rich and stacked teams.

So did Jordan lol

lol no. That's literally a narrative started by Lebron fans as an excuse to compare the two. It was never a narrative in the 90s.

Even the PC forum ranked Rodman as a top 100 player. Only insane people try to rank him higher. Those of us who watched know.

The Bulls won 55 games and went to the ECSF G7 without Jordan. That is a considerably stronger supporting cast than most ATGs have had.

[EmpireFalls]

This thread takes a very contested point (Jordan over LeBron) as a given.

Which makes it my least favorite kind if thread outside of threads purely intended to troll.

Unless….

Eh the poll is 28-28, perfectly even, which is very rare for RealGM

[michaelm]

Hard Truth is that LeBron benefitted from a weakened Eastern Conference for years.

He's a great player, but by moving his biggest competitors onto his own teams, he had a much easier path to the Finals every year.

Celtics and Heat have had similar easy paths the past few years.

I don’t entirely agree. There was an element of teams such as Toronto just not believing they could beat him imo. I don’t think OKC would have beaten the Cavs in 2016 had they beaten GSW either.

[Snakebites]

This thread takes a very contested point (Jordan over LeBron) as a given.

Which makes it my least favorite kind if thread outside of threads purely intended to troll.

Unless….

Eh the poll is 28-28, perfectly even, which is very rare for RealGM

Not sure how that's germane to the point I made but alrighty.

[pipfan]

It's an interesting question-Soccer is my 2nd favorite sport now, but I am a casual fan so no way can I have an intelligent opinion. But, in BBall, one player makes a much bigger difference, and is vital on both offense and defense.

I got into a debate 30 years ago with a hockey fan friend about Gretzky vs. Jordan. I argued that MJ played basically the whole game, and therefore was more dominant. He argued Gretzky dominated that much in so many few minutes, making him greater. I do remember he wanted to bet me $1000 that the US bball team would lose an Olympics within 10 years (this was 1996) and I thought he was crazy. Glad I didn't take the bet!

As for MJ/LBJ, they're both good choices. I'm a huge Bulls' fan so I'm biased, but 2011 is SUCH a black mark for LBJ. I just can't see MJ choking away a title like LeBron did that year, so I have to stay with MJ.