For today: Curry vs Oscar

[EmpireFalls]

A nice Oscar comp is actualized Cade Cunningham with better athleticism and deadly touch on mid range and finishes

That could absolutely be better than mid-30s year old Steph imo, but not a peak Steph.

[trex_8063]

.......I have made my position before very clear. I’ll explain it again, but you’ve seen me cover this ground many times before.

Yes, and I've never agreed. To hear you talk about it, you'd think it's impossible that one could teach someone as brilliant as Leonardo DaVinci to drive a car, or perhaps even turn on a TV set. Because after all, how many times did we see him do that in reality?

Yes, Russell’s average 3pt shooting was around 30+%. That isn’t good, but it was more passable back then than now. Yes, Westbrook’s MVP season saw him shoot a much higher level from 3; that was my point. You know what isn’t good? Zero percent from 3. That’s what Oscar shot. We’ll come back to that though.

No, techinically he didn't shoot "zero percent". One has to take an attempt to achieve 0%; he has none because it didn't exist (and thus gets an "n/a"). Which [apparently] proves that he COULDN'T shoot 3s (see the DaVinci argument)....


Let me ask you this: who would be the better guard [between Curry and Oscar] if they played in the 1960s (with 1960s shoes/equipment and by 1960s rules/officiating)?

You point to Oscar’s FT or midrange shooting like it should matter, but to me it really doesn’t. DeRozan has great midrange shooting, and he can’t hit 3s.

Have you forgotten which side of the fence you're arguing? Your initial "gotcha" was a challenge to name one modern star guard who can't shoot three's; but because you got yourself turned around on what point you want to prove, you go and give us an example yourself......

DeMar DeRozan: 6-time All-Star (as recently as two years ago), 3-time All-NBA (as recently as three years ago, when he was also top 10 in MVP vote-->league average of 35.2 3PA/game that year, 2nd-highest in NBA history), a guy who has somehow [in the modern era] ascended into the top 30 all-time in career points scored (ahead of such notable prolific scoring guards/wings as Reggie Miller, Rick Barry, Jerry West, Allen Iverson, and Ray Allen)........despite he "can't hit 3s" according to you.


Although here you're not even able to settle on a consistent definition or standard of what it means to "be able to shoot threes" (depending on which point you're wanting to argue, the goalposts appear to be moving).

I'm wrong [apparently] for suggesting Westbrook and McConnell "can't hit 3s". Russ's career 30.5% [peak 34.3%] on mostly very open [because most teams bait him to shoot out there] is good enough; McConnell's 34.5% on <1 wide open attempt per game is good enough.

But DeMar has arguably become [**in recent years] the best 3pt shooter of the three of them.......but you say he "can't hit 3s".

**Though only a 30.0% career 3pt shooter, he's 33.3% over the last four seasons [collectively], on 2.5 3PA/game.......that's a FOUR-year AVERAGE that is better than any ONE season of Westbrook's, except for the outlier '17.
DeRozan peaked at 35.2% [1.9 3PA/game], higher than any Westbrook season; he's currently making 32.8% on 3.3 3PA/game (higher % than all but TWO Westbrook seasons [and in one of those he was taking just 1.3 3PA/game]).

It’s too bad that Demar didn’t play in the 70s, because if he did we’d be hearing from his fans that he’d have been an awesome 3pt shooter today.

Here you're sort of straw-manning us, because that's not what most (any?) of us have said (that Oscar would be an "awesome 3pt shooter"). We challenge the notion that he'd be utterly inept at it (your position), most of us arguing that he's likely to become passable or semi-credible as a 3pt threat......at least to the degree of the modern guards we've been discussing above (who [apparently] prove the point that you don't absolutely need to be a particularly good 3pt shooter to be successful in today's league in the first place).

[One_and_Done]

If you think Demar is a star then we have very different conceptions about what a star is. Demar is one of the most overrated players around.

[tsherkin]

A nice Oscar comp is actualized Cade Cunningham with better athleticism and deadly touch on mid range and finishes

Interesting thought. Hard to grip it, though, because there are differences all across skillset and athleticism. Cade is explicitly a poor finisher in close even in this era, and Oscar shot a comparable FG% to Cade's 2P% even in the 60s. And he was way better at drawing fouls.

They end up looking very different, despite having I guess similar builds.

[tsherkin]

If you think Demar is a star then we have very different conceptions about what a star is. Demar is one of the most overrated players around.

He is, by the most elementary definition, a star. He's a 6-tim All-Star who has made the All-NBA team (2nd or 3rd) on 3 occasions.

He's not a franchise-level player, but that's not really the same thing, and no one suggested he was.

[One_and_Done]

If you think Demar is a star then we have very different conceptions about what a star is. Demar is one of the most overrated players around.

He is, by the most elementary definition, a star. He's a 6-tim All-Star who has made the All-NBA team (2nd or 3rd) on 3 occasions.

He's not a franchise-level player, but that's not really the same thing, and no one suggested he was.

He's pretty much a fake all-star tbh. The guy hurts you as much as helps you.

[70sFan]

Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

TJ McConnell.

Of course, he's an athletic freak and better passer compared to Oscar.......oh, wait.... (green font implied)

Wait, you said "star" guard.
OK: Russell Westbrook.

You just knew deep in your heart that TJ is a star guard

[70sFan]

So another silly take from O_and_D about Oscar being unable to shoot threes because the line didn't exist back then, then concluding that Oscar would definitely be unable to make threes and calling Westbrook a better shooter than Oscar because he takes threes and makes them at bad percentage...

What are we even doing here?

[tsherkin]

If you think Demar is a star then we have very different conceptions about what a star is. Demar is one of the most overrated players around.

He is, by the most elementary definition, a star. He's a 6-tim All-Star who has made the All-NBA team (2nd or 3rd) on 3 occasions.

He's not a franchise-level player, but that's not really the same thing, and no one suggested he was.

He's pretty much a fake all-star tbh. The guy hurts you as much as helps you.

I mean, no. That isn't accurate at all. Demar has been part of a bunch of winning teams and good offenses. He's even improved his defense some over the years. He's explicitly been a net-positive offensive player for the bulk of his time as a 20+ ppg scorer. For most of the seasons from 2017 forward, he's been a +2.0 or better O-EPM guy, and he even peaked in the 3s. So regardless of whether or not you like him, he's been a positive offensive player in the RS. He has his challenges, but that's why he isn't a perennial All-Star.

Demar has his limitations. That's what makes him a poor choice as a focal player, but there's a wide space between "hurts you as much as helps you / fake all-star" and "not a franchise player."

[trex_8063]

TJ McConnell.

.....

Wait, you said "star" guard.
OK: Russell Westbrook.

You just knew deep in your heart that TJ is a star guard

Tell you what, he's pretty darn good. More or less a perennial 6MOY candidate (or at least HM) in the modern league......despite being a pedestrian 6'1" 190 lbs, non-exceptional athlete, adept but not exactly a wizard with the ball, who also is not particularly adept at shooting 3's [in the space & pace era].

Imagine what he would be in the league if he were 4" taller and 15-20 lbs heavier, and more athletic, and about 7% better at the FT-line........that perhaps represents a minimalist, 'reasonable' skeptic's most conservative estimate or baseline for what Oscar could be in the modern league.

[70sFan]

TJ McConnell.

.....

Wait, you said "star" guard.
OK: Russell Westbrook.

You just knew deep in your heart that TJ is a star guard

Tell you what, he's pretty darn good. More or less a perennial 6MOY candidate (or at least HM) in the modern league......despite being a pedestrian 6'1" 190 lbs, non-exceptional athlete, adept but not exactly a wizard with the ball, who also is not particularly adept at shooting 3's [in the space & pace era].

Imagine what he would be in the league if he were 4" taller and 15-20 lbs heavier, and more athletic, and about 7% better at the FT-line........that represents a minimalist, 'reasonable' skeptic's most conservative estimate or baseline for what Oscar could be in the modern league.

TJ has been really good, especially when you consider his physical limitations. He's just a really smart player who hustles his way to impact the game. My comment has been only half-joke, McConnell is legitimately good NBA player.

Of course thinking that Oscar wouldn't make any impact today is silly.

[One_and_Done]

TJ McConnell.

.....

Wait, you said "star" guard.
OK: Russell Westbrook.

You just knew deep in your heart that TJ is a star guard

Tell you what, he's pretty darn good. More or less a perennial 6MOY candidate (or at least HM) in the modern league......despite being a pedestrian 6'1" 190 lbs, non-exceptional athlete, adept but not exactly a wizard with the ball, who also is not particularly adept at shooting 3's [in the space & pace era].

Imagine what he would be in the league if he were 4" taller and 15-20 lbs heavier, and more athletic, and about 7% better at the FT-line........that perhaps represents a minimalist, 'reasonable' skeptic's most conservative estimate or baseline for what Oscar could be in the modern league.

I broadly agree, TJ would have been a star in the 60s no doubt.

[One_and_Done]

So another silly take from O_and_D about Oscar being unable to shoot threes because the line didn't exist back then, then concluding that Oscar would definitely be unable to make threes and calling Westbrook a better shooter than Oscar because he takes threes and makes them at bad percentage...

What are we even doing here?

It's not about whether he definitely could or couldn't make 3s, it's about the fact he never did it. I can't say Len Bias definitely wouldn't have been a top 25 all-time player, but since he never actually played like it I can't give him credit for it. Just like I can't give Bill Walton credit for games he never played.

At any rate, when the comp has become Demar it's clear that a comparison to Curry is misguided.

[trex_8063]

You just knew deep in your heart that TJ is a star guard

Tell you what, he's pretty darn good. More or less a perennial 6MOY candidate (or at least HM) in the modern league......despite being a pedestrian 6'1" 190 lbs, non-exceptional athlete, adept but not exactly a wizard with the ball, who also is not particularly adept at shooting 3's [in the space & pace era].

Imagine what he would be in the league if he were 4" taller and 15-20 lbs heavier, and more athletic, and about 7% better at the FT-line........that perhaps represents a minimalist, 'reasonable' skeptic's most conservative estimate or baseline for what Oscar could be in the modern league.

I broadly agree, TJ would have been a star in the 60s no doubt.

Cute. Not at all what I said (that a 4" shorter, 20 lb lighter, less athletic, and worse shooting Oscar would have been a "star"); so....cute.

Though I'll ask WHY you think this? Or repeat my question regarding Curry vs Oscar in the 1960s (under 60s rules)?

[One_and_Done]

Tell you what, he's pretty darn good. More or less a perennial 6MOY candidate (or at least HM) in the modern league......despite being a pedestrian 6'1" 190 lbs, non-exceptional athlete, adept but not exactly a wizard with the ball, who also is not particularly adept at shooting 3's [in the space & pace era].

Imagine what he would be in the league if he were 4" taller and 15-20 lbs heavier, and more athletic, and about 7% better at the FT-line........that perhaps represents a minimalist, 'reasonable' skeptic's most conservative estimate or baseline for what Oscar could be in the modern league.

I broadly agree, TJ would have been a star in the 60s no doubt.

Cute. Not at all what I said (that a 4" shorter, 20 lb lighter, less athletic, and worse shooting Oscar would have been a "star"); so....cute.

Though I'll ask WHY you think this? Or repeat my question regarding Curry vs Oscar in the 1960s (under 60s rules)?

Obviously I don't think much of the average player in the 60s. The quality was low enough that TJ could have been an all-star back then.

[70sFan]

So another silly take from O_and_D about Oscar being unable to shoot threes because the line didn't exist back then, then concluding that Oscar would definitely be unable to make threes and calling Westbrook a better shooter than Oscar because he takes threes and makes them at bad percentage...

What are we even doing here?

It's not about whether he definitely could or couldn't make 3s, it's about the fact he never did it. I can't say Len Bias definitely wouldn't have been a top 25 all-time player, but since he never actually played like it I can't give him credit for it. Just like I can't give Bill Walton credit for games he never played.

At any rate, when the comp has become Demar it's clear that a comparison to Curry is misguided.

Do you geniuely believe that Oscar never shot from three point distance?

[One_and_Done]

So another silly take from O_and_D about Oscar being unable to shoot threes because the line didn't exist back then, then concluding that Oscar would definitely be unable to make threes and calling Westbrook a better shooter than Oscar because he takes threes and makes them at bad percentage...

What are we even doing here?

It's not about whether he definitely could or couldn't make 3s, it's about the fact he never did it. I can't say Len Bias definitely wouldn't have been a top 25 all-time player, but since he never actually played like it I can't give him credit for it. Just like I can't give Bill Walton credit for games he never played.

At any rate, when the comp has become Demar it's clear that a comparison to Curry is misguided.

Do you geniuely believe that Oscar never shot from three point distance?

He never did it in a reliable, measurable way that we can have any confidence in. Jerry West hit a famous game winner from the other side of the court once too, but it doesn't mean I have any confidence/evidence he could pull that off at will.

[70sFan]

It's not about whether he definitely could or couldn't make 3s, it's about the fact he never did it. I can't say Len Bias definitely wouldn't have been a top 25 all-time player, but since he never actually played like it I can't give him credit for it. Just like I can't give Bill Walton credit for games he never played.

At any rate, when the comp has become Demar it's clear that a comparison to Curry is misguided.

Do you geniuely believe that Oscar never shot from three point distance?

He never did it in a reliable, measurable way that we can have any confidence in. Jerry West hit a famous game winner from the other side of the court once too, but it doesn't mean I have any confidence/evidence he could pull that off at will.

The exact same thing is true regarding today's players and 1960s basketball rules, but you keep shifting narratives at all costs when someone will tell you that again.

[The Explorer]

So another silly take from O_and_D about Oscar being unable to shoot threes because the line didn't exist back then, then concluding that Oscar would definitely be unable to make threes and calling Westbrook a better shooter than Oscar because he takes threes and makes them at bad percentage...

What are we even doing here?

It's not about whether he definitely could or couldn't make 3s, it's about the fact he never did it. I can't say Len Bias definitely wouldn't have been a top 25 all-time player, but since he never actually played like it I can't give him credit for it. Just like I can't give Bill Walton credit for games he never played.

At any rate, when the comp has become Demar it's clear that a comparison to Curry is misguided.

Curry never played with 60s shoes, so how do you know he could do it. Curry never played under a coach who would bench him for taking long distance perimeter shots, so how do you know he could do it. Curry never got racist death threats from the KKK and had things thrown at him, so how do you know he could do it. He simply never did those things so you can't give him credit for it.

[One_and_Done]

Do you geniuely believe that Oscar never shot from three point distance?

He never did it in a reliable, measurable way that we can have any confidence in. Jerry West hit a famous game winner from the other side of the court once too, but it doesn't mean I have any confidence/evidence he could pull that off at will.

The exact same thing is true regarding today's players and 1960s basketball rules, but you keep shifting narratives at all costs when someone will tell you that again.

The ability to dribble badly is a subset of the ability to dribble well. If you can do one, you can do the other. Just like you can crawl if you can run.