RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[pepe1991]

Messi vs Ronaldo was something that you could watch on regular bases. Both players in same era, dominating sport, often clashing against each other.

Jordan vs Lebron has no comparison, it's two different basketball worlds that can't be compared.

Lebron still can put up 25 ppg because you have random 130 points games every week. In Jordan era scoring 20 ppg would make you top 10 scorer. Today 20 ppg doesn't make you top 30 scorer. Putting up (empty) stats is simply easier now because of no defense in regular season , pace, 3 point shooting etc.

So what else you can compare but stats? Championships as biggest and ultimate sport's goal. In that case Lebron has nothing on Jordan, played almost twice as many seasons, still won two rings less. With book on him closing, it's safe to say he already won his last title in 2020.
Matter of fact everything post- bubble for Lebron is equal to Wizards Jordan. Just sad old man getting his a*** handed in playoffs every year, if he goes there.

[Ainosterhaspie]

No one that watched both of their careers closely would ever say Lebron is better than Michael Jordan.

Nostalgia is a powerful drug, but plenty of people have proven resistant to its effects and see LeBron as the better player after having watched both careers closely.

Other than passing what is he better at? Jordan had better handles, better post moves, better mid range game, better free throw shooter, better defensively throughout his career, and if i needed a basket to win or tie a game with a few seconds left i know who im giving the ball to between the two players. I watched both careers.

Congrats on seeing both. So did many people who have LeBron ranked over Jordan.

[Iwasawitness]

lol no. That's literally a narrative started by Lebron fans as an excuse to compare the two. It was never a narrative in the 90s.

Even the PC forum ranked Rodman as a top 100 player. Only insane people try to rank him higher. Those of us who watched know.

Um, yeah it absolutely was. I know you didn't watch during the 90s, but the Bulls were considered a powerhouse during the 90s and were absolutely considered a stacked team. I just can't with this revisionist history from people who clearly weren't watching during that time frame (and don't pretend you did because no you didn't).

Go ahead and show me any clip from the 90s referring to the Bulls squad as a superteam, because not of their dominance but their actual assembly.
Not CURRENT from lebron fans or whatever, but actually existing in the 90s and at the time.

I'll wait for as long as it takes.

And what about 91-93 three-peat? Are you going to refer to Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ, Paxson, etc as the makings of a superteam as well?

Did Jordan ever get to play with a player who equaled or came near his production?

Never said they were a super team.

[Iwasawitness]

No one that watched both of their careers closely would ever say Lebron is better than Michael Jordan.

And Bron knew that was an impossibility the moment he started forming super teams in the weakest era of the eastern conference.

Nearly every year was a cakewalk to the finals in the east. Look what happened when he moved west.

If you wanted to talk about cakewalks put on any Bulls finals from 90s. Jordan dominated expansion league that was watered down talent wise, having the benefit of having superteam behind him and a coach that was way ahead of his time in a league where half of the teams basically employed caveman tactics.

But I'm not going to die on this hill, you're free to pick your goat, I just got irked with the way op presented this topic

Nope, average wins of eastern teams Jordan faced nearly 50, LeBron's was just 46. LeBron also played in what is historically the worst Eastern Conference of the last 40 years in 2007. Jordan also never played a team as bad as the 8th seed Heat in the finals.

Jordan also never faced a team in the finals as good as the Spurs or Warriors…

[Iwasawitness]

Go ahead and show me any clip from the 90s referring to the Bulls squad as a superteam, because not of their dominance but their actual assembly.
Not CURRENT from lebron fans or whatever, but actually existing in the 90s and at the time.

I'll wait for as long as it takes.

And what about 91-93 three-peat? Are you going to refer to Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ, Paxson, etc as the makings of a superteam as well?

Did Jordan ever get to play with a player who equaled or came near his production?

Imagie acting like you know anything about MJ and 80s/90s basketball while writing the quote in my sig. You're out of your league, son. Just quit with the act.

Okay, so I lived in the Chicago area throughout the 1990s and watched virtually all their games and generally paid a lot of attention to them. Grant and Rodman were definitely seen as the third-best players on those three-peat teams, but they were not considered serious stars, and people really did not think that the Bulls were a stacked superteam. Of course, people understood that Pippen was an elite player and that the Bulls had a good supporting cast, but the Bulls were absolutely understood as a team that was clearly led by Jordan, who had a great sidekick in Pippen, and some well-fitting pieces around them. They weren’t considered a “superteam” any more than a team like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were. Anyone calling those Bulls a “superteam” really is just trying to go back post-hoc and apply a concept to them that no one thought applied at the time, as a way to counter arguments against LeBron.

No one is calling them a super team. Not a single person. Stacked team on the other hand? Yes, they were definitely considered stacked.

[ScrantonBulls]

No one that watched both of their careers closely would ever say Lebron is better than Michael Jordan.

And Bron knew that was an impossibility the moment he started forming super teams in the weakest era of the eastern conference.

Nearly every year was a cakewalk to the finals in the east. Look what happened when he moved west.

If you wanted to talk about cakewalks put on any Bulls finals from 90s. Jordan dominated expansion league that was watered down talent wise, having the benefit of having superteam behind him and a coach that was way ahead of his time in a league where half of the teams basically employed caveman tactics.

But I'm not going to die on this hill, you're free to pick your goat, I just got irked with the way op presented this topic

Nope, average wins of eastern teams Jordan faced nearly 50, LeBron's was just 46. LeBron also played in what is historically the worst Eastern Conference of the last 40 years in 2007. Jordan also never played a team as bad as the 8th seed Heat in the finals.

Lol at using average win totals. It's not like they played during an expansion era where there were loads of lousy expansion teams to beat up on, right? Rust Cohle ladies and gentlemen!

[Petergrifindor]

When healthy, R9 was way better than both Messi and CR7.

No , and not even close.

I saw him playing live at the stadium with Barcelona. I saw all his games that year.

He was fantastic, unique and memorable, but both Messi and CR7 have several seasons better than Ronaldo’s best.

Complete different levels.

[The4thHorseman]

NBA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Soccer

[Rust_Cohle]

If you wanted to talk about cakewalks put on any Bulls finals from 90s. Jordan dominated expansion league that was watered down talent wise, having the benefit of having superteam behind him and a coach that was way ahead of his time in a league where half of the teams basically employed caveman tactics.

But I'm not going to die on this hill, you're free to pick your goat, I just got irked with the way op presented this topic

Nope, average wins of eastern teams Jordan faced nearly 50, LeBron's was just 46. LeBron also played in what is historically the worst Eastern Conference of the last 40 years in 2007. Jordan also never played a team as bad as the 8th seed Heat in the finals.

Lol at using average win totals. It's not like they played during an expansion era where there were loads of lousy expansion teams to beat up on, right? Rust Cohle ladies and gentlemen!

And yet the east LeBron played in was STILL worse, I mean some of the worst teams in NBA HISTORY played in that Eastern conference. But keep melting down Taj, your king is dead.

[Rust_Cohle]

When healthy, R9 was way better than both Messi and CR7.

Never ever ever, pre injury he was amazing, but Messi destroys him playmaking wise. Had a far higher IQ too.

[Tracymcgoaty]

When healthy, R9 was way better than both Messi and CR7.

No , and not even close.

I saw him playing live at the stadium with Barcelona. I saw all his games that year.

He was fantastic, unique and memorable, but both Messi and CR7 have several seasons better than Ronaldo’s best.

Complete different levels.

Put pre injury R9 in modern football right now he's averaging 50+ goals in every competition.

I remember watching Messi and Ronaldo having problems with cafu Nesta/maldini when they were ancient. Same R9 who made them crap their pants when they were in their prime.

R9 played against the greatest defenders you could play against and put fear in their hearts the way Cristiano or Messi never did. And i say that as someone who put Messi as the Goat.

there isn't a single scenario where i pick Cristiano over a healthy R9.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YgfhODasIoI

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/E1XVqL13GrU

And you're talking about kid Ronaldo who dominated in barcelona. Ronaldo in Inter was the most complete football player you've ever seen in a 9.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Lm_ZlF78k_0

All of these players were GOAT level defenders in their prime and R9 had them shaking in their boots.

R9 facing todays defenders would score goals for fun. They'd have nothing for him.

[wegotthabeet]

Is one World Cup truly that big of a deal to separate what were pretty equal careers up to that stage?

Or was the gap between Messi and Ronaldo already enormous before 2022?

No. Winning the WC with Argentina is like winning the NBA championship with the Heat.

It's impressive, but much easier than winning as the Pelicans. Portugal has never had a viable chance at winning the World Cup.

Messi is better, but not because of this. It's a lame argument.

They were like top 8 in 2022. Thats not having no viable chance. Thats being a contender. That 2022 squad was amongst the most talented squads Portugal has had.

That 2022 team wasn't even amongst the most talented argentinian teams. A lot of those players were unproven in the biggest stage and Messi was older. The DIFFERENCE was our coach Scaloni. He completely changed the trajectory of the national team. Prior to him coming the national team was dysfunctional.

Yeah only 8 nations have won the World Cup for a reason. Not saying it’s completely impossible for a country like Portugal to win it, but they likely won’t ever.

[ScrantonBulls]

Nope, average wins of eastern teams Jordan faced nearly 50, LeBron's was just 46. LeBron also played in what is historically the worst Eastern Conference of the last 40 years in 2007. Jordan also never played a team as bad as the 8th seed Heat in the finals.

Lol at using average win totals. It's not like they played during an expansion era where there were loads of lousy expansion teams to beat up on, right? Rust Cohle ladies and gentlemen!

And yet the east LeBron played in was STILL worse, I mean some of the worst teams in NBA HISTORY played in that Eastern conference. But keep melting down Taj, your king is dead.

You literally just used "average win total" of opponents to make a claim that Jordan faced better teams That's the type of "in depth" analysis you use to come to these conclusions.

[Rust_Cohle]

Lol at using average win totals. It's not like they played during an expansion era where there were loads of lousy expansion teams to beat up on, right? Rust Cohle ladies and gentlemen!

And yet the east LeBron played in was STILL worse, I mean some of the worst teams in NBA HISTORY played in that Eastern conference. But keep melting down Taj, your king is dead.

You literally just used "average win total" of opponents to make a claim that Jordan faced better teams That's the type of "in depth" analysis you use to come to these conclusions.

As oppose to? Vibes? I mean jesus christ the east in 2013 and 2014 was laughably bad, don't even get me started on 2007. MJ was always in the harder conference when he played, LeBron the exact opposite.

[Tracymcgoaty]

NBA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Soccer

Not even close and wont ever be. Not even in the same stratosphere. Kids in war torn countries wear soccer jerseys.

People play football with potatoes and tomatoes on poverty ridden streets. Fans align their entire identity with their home town team.

There is not a single sport in this world that will usurp Football.

Football is irrational passion bordering on damn near dangerous. Just go and watch a Derby della madonnina game live in Milan and you'll see NBA wont ever come close.

[Rust_Cohle]

No. Winning the WC with Argentina is like winning the NBA championship with the Heat.

It's impressive, but much easier than winning as the Pelicans. Portugal has never had a viable chance at winning the World Cup.

Messi is better, but not because of this. It's a lame argument.

They were like top 8 in 2022. Thats not having no viable chance. Thats being a contender. That 2022 squad was amongst the most talented squads Portugal has had.

That 2022 team wasn't even amongst the most talented argentinian teams. A lot of those players were unproven in the biggest stage and Messi was older. The DIFFERENCE was our coach Scaloni. He completely changed the trajectory of the national team. Prior to him coming the national team was dysfunctional.

Yeah only 8 nations have won the World Cup for a reason. Not saying it’s completely impossible for a country like Portugal to win it, but they likely won’t ever.

Ronaldo played in 5 world cups and zero knock out goals. Portugal had plenty of viable chances, in the WC Ronaldo was not that guy. Amazing club player, but his team even won a euros with him on the bench. He was great those Euros, don't get me wrong, but Pepe was their best player that tourney.

[Tracymcgoaty]

They were like top 8 in 2022. Thats not having no viable chance. Thats being a contender. That 2022 squad was amongst the most talented squads Portugal has had.

That 2022 team wasn't even amongst the most talented argentinian teams. A lot of those players were unproven in the biggest stage and Messi was older. The DIFFERENCE was our coach Scaloni. He completely changed the trajectory of the national team. Prior to him coming the national team was dysfunctional.

Yeah only 8 nations have won the World Cup for a reason. Not saying it’s completely impossible for a country like Portugal to win it, but they likely won’t ever.

Ronaldo played in 5 world cups and zero knock out goals. Portugal had plenty of viable chances, in the WC Ronaldo was not that guy. Amazing club player, but his team even won a euros with him on the bench. He was great those Euros, don't get me wrong, but Pepe was their best player that tourney.

There is no legit comparison between Messi and Cristiano. Maybe if Cristiano continues to make his case on his youtube channel for 20 more years people might forget how much **** better Messi was.

Or maybe if he scores 200 more goals and his fans act like he's facing prime Maldini/Baresi in that farmer league things might change.

[Rust_Cohle]

Yeah only 8 nations have won the World Cup for a reason. Not saying it’s completely impossible for a country like Portugal to win it, but they likely won’t ever.

Ronaldo played in 5 world cups and zero knock out goals. Portugal had plenty of viable chances, in the WC Ronaldo was not that guy. Amazing club player, but his team even won a euros with him on the bench. He was great those Euros, don't get me wrong, but Pepe was their best player that tourney.

There is no legit comparison between Messi and Cristiano. Maybe if Cristiano continues to make his case on his youtube channel for 20 more years people might forget how much **** better Messi was.

Or maybe if he scores 200 more goals and his fans act like he's facing prime Maldini/Baresi in that farmer league things might change.

Who wins CL this year? I have PSG as the slight favourite but it really does feel wide open.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Ronaldo played in 5 world cups and zero knock out goals. Portugal had plenty of viable chances, in the WC Ronaldo was not that guy. Amazing club player, but his team even won a euros with him on the bench. He was great those Euros, don't get me wrong, but Pepe was their best player that tourney.

There is no legit comparison between Messi and Cristiano. Maybe if Cristiano continues to make his case on his youtube channel for 20 more years people might forget how much **** better Messi was.

Or maybe if he scores 200 more goals and his fans act like he's facing prime Maldini/Baresi in that farmer league things might change.

Who wins CL this year? I have PSG as the slight favourite but it really does feel wide open.

It really is wide open. I hate to say it but i think Inter to be honest. Barca with their high line and suspect defense is a legit liability. But inter are old and seem to be dead tired at the moment. I wonder if they'll sacrifice one league game by resting their players for the 2nd leg.

PSG have been phenomenal in UCL but they also are very suspect with their defense. Arsenal had chances to get a draw. I just think on paper right now Inter has the most complete team.

They have the best defense imo. Their Midfield is class and Lautaro/Thuram are formidable duo.

So i'll go inter. But like you said WIDE OPEN.

[Rust_Cohle]

Hard Truth is that LeBron benefitted from a weakened Eastern Conference for years.

He's a great player, but by moving his biggest competitors onto his own teams, he had a much easier path to the Finals every year.

Celtics and Heat have had similar easy paths the past few years.

Not even a hard truth, lebron did that by design. The whole Miami crap was trying to game the system.

Not 5, not 6, not 7,

Didn’t realize he meant finals losses.