Hal Greer

[GeorgeMarcus]

10x All Star, 7x All-NBA, won a ring as the clear #2... He has a resume that seems worthy of recognition on RealGM's Top 100 list but is nowhere to be found. His game didn't really have any weaknesses; He was a strong defender, stronger creator, and elite shot maker. So what gives?

1 - To those who participated, was he a fringe omission or a complete after thought?
2 - What were the biggest reasons for keeping him off the list? Compared to a guy like Gus Williams who was a 2x All-Star/2x All-NBAer?

[penbeast0]

I don't have him as an elite shot maker; his efficiency was just average for a guard and nowhere close to the top shot makers (Robertson and West). He was a tough defender and could do everything you wanted a 2 guard to do and is competitive with Sam Jones for the 3rd best guard of his era. That said, I probably don't have him in my top 100 either though he's a name I'd consider at that level. He always seemed more of a complimentary player rather than a prime mover (as was Sam Jones). I have Jones ahead of him because of Jones's better rep for playoff heroics.

[eminence]

Voted 'Probably should've made the list' - I think he'd be on mine if I went out that far (I usually quit somewhere in the 30s), though not sure how high. Certainly considered him when voting/nominating. Basically agreeing with Pen that I see him as the 3B guard of the era. Not aggrieved that he missed out though. Just not that big of a gap between the 60s on the list and the low 100s.

Awards in particular probably overstate his case relative to more modern players, just a lot easier to rack up in a smaller league.

Been fiddling with what I've called bingo board tiering system. Letter stands for how I see their prime (on a semi consistent talent scale, being #5 in 1951 is less impressive than it is today), and then a number to quantify their longevity. Greer would be D2 group guy.

A - ATG tier prime (+6 or higher guy)
B - MVP vote getter (+5)
C - Clear All-NBA, 1st Team Contender (+4)
D - Lower All-NBA (+3)
E - Allstar (+2)

1 - Elite longevity
2 - Good longevity
3 - Below Average longevity
4 - Poor longevity

[kcktiny]

has a resume that seems worthy of recognition on RealGM's Top 100 list but is nowhere to be found... was he a fringe omission or a complete after thought?

I did not participate, but on any Top List there is going to be someone(s) who falls through the cracks, and when you think to include him the question on who to demote is even harder.

He was a tough defender and could do everything you wanted a 2 guard to do

Hal Greer was the epitome of the hard-nosed two-way SG in the 60s. Didn't miss games, played maximum minutes.

He always seemed more of a complimentary player rather than a prime mover (as was Sam Jones).

Hal Greer was far far more than just a complimentary player.

Greer lead his team in per game scoring 3 times, was second 7 times (3 of those times 2nd to Wilt). Although an SG he lead his team in assists 4 times.

From 1960-61 to 1970-71 (11 seasons) Greer among all guards in the NBA:

- played the 2nd most minutes (32926, 38 min/g). Only Oscar played more. During this time Oscar played 3000+ minutes in a season 9 times, Greer 7 times. No other guard did so more than 4 times.

- scored the 3rd most points (18736). Only Oscar (23578) and Jerry (21003) scored more. No other guard scored even 14000 points during that time.

- grabbed the 2nd most rebounds among all guards (4789). Only Oscar grabbed more.

- although never his team's starting PG threw for the 5th most assists (3824) among all guards in the league. Only Oscar, Guy, Lenny, and Jerry threw for more.

As a matter of fact, when he retired after the 1972-73 season, Hal Greer among all guards in NBA history ranked:

- 3rd in points scored
- 2nd in rebounds
- 6th in assists
- 5th in FTAs

I have Jones ahead of him because of Jones's better rep for playoff heroics.

If you compare Greer and Jones for just the age range Jones was in the league (Greer played 3 more seasons than Jones did), from the ages of 24-35:

- Greer played 46% more minutes than did Jones. That's a huge difference. Greer averaged 2945 minutes/season (37 min/g), Jones just 2024 minutes/season (28 min/g).

- they were similar shooters, 45.2% vs. 45.6% on 2s, 80.2% vs. 80.3% FT%, Jones the better per minute scorer 25.4 vs. 22.3 pts/40min, Greer the better scorer because he played far more minutes.

If there was a star guard in the league during this time not named West or Robertson, it was Hal Greer. Third in most points scored among all guards while also being a top defender. And while Greer and Jones were both great defenders, I'll take the guy that played 9 min/g more over 11 full seasons.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't have him as an elite shot maker; his efficiency was just average for a guard and nowhere close to the top shot makers (Robertson and West). He was a tough defender and could do everything you wanted a 2 guard to do and is competitive with Sam Jones for the 3rd best guard of his era. That said, I probably don't have him in my top 100 either though he's a name I'd consider at that level. He always seemed more of a complimentary player rather than a prime mover (as was Sam Jones). I have Jones ahead of him because of Jones's better rep for playoff heroics.

I don't really understand the bolded part. Greer's ts+ from 59-69 was between 103 & 111 every year. Which for a guard is even better I would say since I would think that bigs generally had a higher ts%.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think I'd have him in the top 75 for sure. In the 2020 project I was one of his bigger proponents and had him in the low 70's I think.

[penbeast0]

I don't really understand the bolded part. Greer's ts+ from 59-69 was between 103 & 111 every year. Which for a guard is even better I would say since I would think that bigs generally had a higher ts%.

My mistake if that's the case; I trust the stats more than my memory.

[Jaivl]

I lean towards "yes", but it's not a big deal either way. Wouldn't be mad if he got in from #60 or so, wouldn't be mad if he got in at, like, #130 on an extended list.

Then again, Ginóbili is #39...