Run it Back or Upgrade?

[Snakebites]

Great, thanks Sherlock…the McGruder part was actually a joke.

Not the entire post then?

Reference to the previous Bol Bol deal you uncultured swine.

Either this is extremely poorly delivered tongue and cheek humor or outright hostility.

Either way knock it off.

[SuperBad]

Bol Bol is always intriguing in theory, he could be the third center too which would help close out the roster if Reed leaves. He’s on the list, but Ausar can play PF 90% of time when Tobias is out and we have Schroeder, so I just think we need a bigger defensive pf for those occasional moments, Bol Bol must be flawed in more ways than we see on the court.

[Snakebites]

I do feel like this is relevant here:

What extensions/new contracts do you expect Duren, Ivey, and (eventually) Ausar to command?

That might be a factor in whether or not we keep these guys or move them in the coming months or years. It’s the same dilemma the Rockets have given they added young talent via draft in a similar time frame. It’s also why they could be open to moving Smith.

[GreekAlex]

I do feel like this is relevant here:

What extensions/new contracts do you expect Duren, Ivey, and (eventually) Ausar to command?

That might be a factor in whether or not we keep these guys or move them in the coming months or years. It’s the same dilemma the Rockets have given they added young talent via draft in a similar time frame. It’s also why they could be open to moving Smith.

Ivey is a wildcard because of the injury and how he fits with the new chemistry.

Ausar can’t be extended until after next season so it completely depends on his improvement and it his shooting gets closer to neutral.

Duren should be 4-$110M give or take a few million.

[LaSheed]

I do feel like this is relevant here:

What extensions/new contracts do you expect Duren, Ivey, and (eventually) Ausar to command?

That might be a factor in whether or not we keep these guys or move them in the coming months or years. It’s the same dilemma the Rockets have given they added young talent via draft in a similar time frame. It’s also why they could be open to moving Smith.

Ivey is a wildcard because of the injury and how he fits with the new chemistry.

Ausar can’t be extended until after next season so it completely depends on his improvement and it his shooting gets closer to neutral.

Duren should be 4-$110M give or take a few million.

I wish it's 4/110. I'm predicting something close to something around 5/150. Using Sengun AAV and probably slightly less.

Willing to bet Ivey will be 4/120. Something around Tyler Herros deal.

My reason is the cap rising over the next years.

4/110 I would be ecstatic about.

[zeebneeb]

Cade
Ivey
Ausar
Aldama
Duren

That is a 50+ win team next season, and perhaps even an ECF appearance.

Ivey is a great fit with Cade.

[Snakebites]

I do feel like this is relevant here:

What extensions/new contracts do you expect Duren, Ivey, and (eventually) Ausar to command?

That might be a factor in whether or not we keep these guys or move them in the coming months or years. It’s the same dilemma the Rockets have given they added young talent via draft in a similar time frame. It’s also why they could be open to moving Smith.

Ivey is a wildcard because of the injury and how he fits with the new chemistry.

Ausar can’t be extended until after next season so it completely depends on his improvement and it his shooting gets closer to neutral.

Duren should be 4-$110M give or take a few million.

I wish it's 4/110. I'm predicting something close to something around 5/150. Using Sengun AAV and probably slightly less.

Willing to bet Ivey will be 4/120. Something around Tyler Herros deal.

My reason is the cap rising over the next years.

4/110 I would be ecstatic about.

If Duren is gonna command 30 million dollars per year then we should look to move him.

Which is kind of the larger point here, right?

[MotownMadness]

Cade
Ivey
Ausar
Aldama
Duren

That is a 50+ win team next season, and perhaps even an ECF appearance.

Ivey is a great fit with Cade.

I like it

Aldama is a RFA though correct? Dude is kinda breaking out and I wonder how much they match

[LaSheed]

Ivey is a wildcard because of the injury and how he fits with the new chemistry.

Ausar can’t be extended until after next season so it completely depends on his improvement and it his shooting gets closer to neutral.

Duren should be 4-$110M give or take a few million.

I wish it's 4/110. I'm predicting something close to something around 5/150. Using Sengun AAV and probably slightly less.

Willing to bet Ivey will be 4/120. Something around Tyler Herros deal.

My reason is the cap rising over the next years.

4/110 I would be ecstatic about.

If Duren is gonna command 30 million dollars per year then we should look to move him.

Which is kind of the larger point here, right?

Agreed. Loved what I seen from Duren the 2nd half of the season to the end. No way he gets 30 million from me especially with his self admitted lack of effort in the beginning of the season.

[MrBigShot]

I’d pass quickly on that deal.

Same. Deal is so lop sided it looks like something a fan of another team would post. Ausar is our 2nd most valuable piece.

I don’t understand the hype around Ausar Thompson. Yes, he’s a good defender and a decent rebounder, but the offensive consistency will ultimately be detrimental to his career. Also, his foul rate is very alarming. As a comparison, Amen reminds me of Andre Iguodala while Ausar reminds me of Matisse Thybulle when he was in the All-Defensive team. Do you guys think he could be someone like Jaden McDaniels or Aaron Gordon? While the league, as well as most of us here, values Ausar highly, we should sell high. I don’t want to hold on to a player because of potential and then having to trade him for peanuts later. Once upon a time, I thought free throw shooting as well as hiring a defensive coach can unlock a certain player’s potential as well, but it never happened. Now we have a player who’s a good defender that is still viewed with potential, we can scour around to see what his value is. A solid point guard along with a young prospect would be a start. The most ideal player I’d love to have is Trey Murphy.

We have to build around Cunningham, Duren and Ivey (Amen is 4th in behind those 3). It’s infuriating to watch Cade getting blitz on offense without having anyone besides Ivey/Schroeder (if he stays) who can make a sound decision. So we still need to have solid point guard, such as a younger Mike Conley, who can calm things down.

The kid just plays winning basketball. He's not a good shooter, he has no range, he sucks at FT shooting, his handle is shoddy and yet...he just finds ways to make plays and impact the game.

We were dead in the water in both games 5 and 6 until he came in and made a series of big plays. He is an elite athlete and has instincts that you can't teach. The blood clots ended his season last year & derailed his start to this year. I wanna see how he continues to develop.

If we were gonna trade him it would have to be for a legit all star, not a guy like Jabari Smith who is a serviceable starter with a questionable motor.

[Cowology]

Ivey is a wildcard because of the injury and how he fits with the new chemistry.

Ausar can’t be extended until after next season so it completely depends on his improvement and it his shooting gets closer to neutral.

Duren should be 4-$110M give or take a few million.

I wish it's 4/110. I'm predicting something close to something around 5/150. Using Sengun AAV and probably slightly less.

Willing to bet Ivey will be 4/120. Something around Tyler Herros deal.

My reason is the cap rising over the next years.

4/110 I would be ecstatic about.

If Duren is gonna command 30 million dollars per year then we should look to move him.

Which is kind of the larger point here, right?

It's going to be impossible for us to keep everybody. Not an imediate problem, but all these rookie scale contracts will end eventually. That's part of why I'm in favor of consolidating talent. It's not that I'm in a big rush to take shortcuts, it's that I honestly don't think what we're doing is sustainable. And the more we win the harder it becomes. That's just sorta life under the CBA.

[the_l_train]

Cade
Ivey
Ausar
Aldama
Duren

That is a 50+ win team next season, and perhaps even an ECF appearance.

Ivey is a great fit with Cade.

I see the vision but afraid it is better in 2k or on paper….Aldama is awful on defense and teams would feast on him next to Duren.

Need a stretch big who can actually defend if Duren/Ausar are keepers.

[bstein14]

Cade
Ivey
Ausar
Aldama
Duren

That is a 50+ win team next season, and perhaps even an ECF appearance.

Ivey is a great fit with Cade.

I see the vision but afraid it is better in 2k or on paper….Aldama is awful on defense and teams would feast on him next to Duren.

Need a stretch big who can actually defend if Duren/Ausar are keepers.

100% need someone who can both hit threes and also step out and defenders perimeter bigs who can shoot. That's 100% the ideal player to add to our young starting lineup of Cade + Ivey + Ausar + Duren. Evan Mobley type would be ideal.

[zeebneeb]

Cade
Ivey
Ausar
Aldama
Duren

That is a 50+ win team next season, and perhaps even an ECF appearance.

Ivey is a great fit with Cade.

I see the vision but afraid it is better in 2k or on paper….Aldama is awful on defense and teams would feast on him next to Duren.

Need a stretch big who can actually defend if Duren/Ausar are keepers.

Its a chess board move. What your describing doesn't exist, or would be so expensive, it would destroy the team to obtain.(JJJ)

Every contending team has a special player, or two. No contending team, is without its warts. The Pistons have a jumbo PG that is a matchup nightmare for everyone, and just had a record breaking opening playoff stint, only 2 other players have ever done. Ivey is a speedster, who can slice up defenses, and facilitate for others, whilst shooting 40% from three, and is 6'5. Thats the Pistons "super power".

The defense played extremely well, doing its job. Thr Pistons got jammed up on offense, and desperately missed Iveys ability to playmake and score. They also lacked experience, which they just gained.

Don't look at Aldamas weaknesses, look at his strengths. He is a 6'11 shooter, that has limited creation ability. He is a jumbo Harris. The Pistons lacked size in the last series. This will help dramatically. As for RFA, they can drop an offer sheet, that Memphis may not be able to, or unwilling to match.

I firmly believe this team is experience, and a legitimate starting 4, from contending, as is. No huge swings that'll gut the team. Hell, one of the reasons I wanted Klintman playing during the season, is because the answer might be sitting on the bench, signed on a tiny deal for four years.

This of course is my own personal opinion, but make sure the team upgrades from Harris, and this team is going places, fast. Unless Rasheed Wallace(can you imagine how perfect he would fit?) Got cloned, the team will have to make due with a lesser piece.

Unless of course someone has a brilliant idea to land a whale at the 4 just giving up bench pieces and picks, im stumped.

[Snakebites]

I wish it's 4/110. I'm predicting something close to something around 5/150. Using Sengun AAV and probably slightly less.

Willing to bet Ivey will be 4/120. Something around Tyler Herros deal.

My reason is the cap rising over the next years.

4/110 I would be ecstatic about.

If Duren is gonna command 30 million dollars per year then we should look to move him.

Which is kind of the larger point here, right?

It's going to be impossible for us to keep everybody. Not an imediate problem, but all these rookie scale contracts will end eventually. That's part of why I'm in favor of consolidating talent. It's not that I'm in a big rush to take shortcuts, it's that I honestly don't think what we're doing is sustainable. And the more we win the harder it becomes. That's just sorta life under the CBA.

Yeah, this is the thing folks need to realize.

That doesn't mean we can't build a championship team on our current path. But it does mean that it's going to require a lot of smart moves and money management to accomplish that goal. It isn't as simple as keeping young guys together and finding the right pieces around them. That was just the first step- there will be many others.

IF (hypothetically) we win a championship within the next 5 years it probably won't be with more than a few players on the current roster on hand.

[bstein14]

Duren has a lot of chemistry with Cade and he's still super young with upside but anything more than 4 years $100 million is too much we've seen traditional centers who don't have an offensive skillset and aren't elite defenders sign for really cheap lately. You can replace a rim running rebounder pretty easily for less than MLE money.

Even 4 years $100 million is generous and risky at the same time because its assuming he will get better and that's always a risk. The Lakers reportedly made us an offer for him so we clearly want to keep him, but its got to be at the right price or make him go get an offer next summer as a RFA so we can match.

He probably deserves just slightly more than what Stewart got if we're being honest he might have a hard time getting more than MLE $ in FA unless he has a step forward next year. 4 years $80 to $88 million and give him a 4th year player option so he can bet on himself a bit to get a big payday if he out earns that contract.

[Snakebites]

Duren has a lot of chemistry with Cade and he's still super young with upside but anything more than 4 years $100 million is too much we've seen traditional centers who don't have an offensive skillset and aren't elite defenders sign for really cheap lately. You can replace a rim running rebounder pretty easily for less than MLE money.

Even 4 years $100 million is generous and risky at the same time because its assuming he will get better and that's always a risk. The Lakers reportedly made us an offer for him so we clearly want to keep him, but its got to be at the right price or make him go get an offer next summer as a RFA so we can match.

He probably deserves just slightly more than what Stewart got if we're being honest he might have a hard time getting more than MLE $ in FA unless he has a step forward next year. 4 years $80 to $88 million and give him a 4th year player option so he can bet on himself a bit to get a big payday if he out earns that contract.

This.

I have really enjoyed watching Cade and Duren this year. But unless he improves defensively what he offers really isn't all that special or hard to find.

He's the type of guy well run franchises don't invest a large portion of their cap on. I'm not sure how high I'd go, but nowhere near 30 million.

[tmorgan]

Duren’s gonna be a rough call. He’s just about the best lob-catching center in the league, and our star loves lobs. He’s also very athletic, has a real nose for at least basic passing (and thrown lobs, actually!), and rebounds like a demon. He’s also a solid free throw shooter for a member of the non-shooter archetype. That’s actually a fairly unique package.

…but….

How much can you pay a center that doesn’t play good help defense, and isn’t a lockdown man defender either? And that, at least thus far, doesn’t take shots outside the paint? I remain convinced Duren actually has good touch on his jumper, but if it’s not good enough for JBB to let him shoot it, it doesn’t matter what I think.

If Duren kept his same skill package and had Stew’s nose for defense, he’s be getting a max second contract, zero doubt about it. So, can he get better defensively? That’s really the only question that matters here.

If he wants an early extension, I offer 4/90 with a PO. That’s safe enough for what he brings, and he’s definitely getting more than Stewart (two years later, if nothing else) regardless, so it’s an extra 3-4 million a year than the absolute minimum he’ll get. If he wants more, you risk the bad vibes, tell him his defense needs to greatly improve (so he focuses on it in the summer), and wait for RFA.

[Cowology]

Duren’s gonna be a rough call. He’s just about the best lob-catching center in the league, and our star loves lobs. He’s also very athletic, has a real nose for at least basic passing (and thrown lobs, actually!), and rebounds like a demon. He’s also a solid free throw shooter for a member of the non-shooter archetype. That’s actually a fairly unique package.

…but….

How much can you pay a center that doesn’t play good help defense, and isn’t a lockdown man defender either? And that, at thus far, doesn’t take shots outside the paint? I remain convinced Duren actually has good touch on his jumper, but if it’s not good enough for JBB to let him shoot it, it doesn’t matter what I think.

If Duren kept his same skill package and had Stew’s nose for defense, he’s be getting a max second contract, zero doubt about it. So, can he get better defensively? That’s really the only question that matters here.

If he wants an early extension, I offer 4/90 with a PO. That’s safe enough for what he brings, and he’s definitely getting more than Stewart (two years later, if nothing else) regardless, so it’s an extra 3-4 million a year than the absolute minimum he’ll get. If he wants more, you risk the bad vibes, tell him his defense needs to greatly improve (so he focuses on it in the summer), and wait for RFA.

I want to give Duren credit because he's made solid progress through out the season and I want to continue believing in "potential", but I'm not sure he's going to get a whole lot better than he is right now. Maybe he improves a bit offensively and gives you a few more pts around the basket, but he's not a defensive anchor or a floor spacer and I don't see either of those things changing.

Part of the problem is that C is notoriously difficult to upgrade. Guys like Jokic & Embiid don't get moved around a lot and if they do you aren't likely to be involved. Teams are also not coming off the younger guys like Sangun unless there is a major red flag (Mark Williams??) The Sabonis for Hali flip was a bit unusual, but also shows how much you need to be willing to give up to get that sort of player.

So let's say we offer Duren what we think he's worth, and he rejects it. Maybe somebody else gives him a bag or he just overplays his hand, but suppose he decides to go.... then what? No 1st round picks. Some cap space, but there are limits. Still not a great trade market. So... where does that leave you?

I really have no answers, just kinda pointing out that it's a tough spot to be in. Duren has a little more leverage than what he appears to have because of the sunken cost we've already invested in him. That's why teams wind up bidding against themselves and overpaying to keep their own players. You sorta box yourself into a corner and then fans go balistic when we cave and pay the dude, but do you really wanna watch him leave for nothing after 4 years developing him?

[tmorgan]

Hali was traded for Sab because Sacto is run by their owner who is a basketball moron. That was an unusual opportunity.