Does the amount of Teams he played for hurt Lebron's legacy?

[Ainosterhaspie]

There have been several posts in this thread from people saying something like, "it's ok that he moved, it's just not ok where he moved". Of course, we never get told where it would have been acceptable for him to go. It's OK to go somewhere else, but not to go anywhere where he might have a strong roster. It's OK to move as long as he can't win when he does.

Ironically this is the argument advanced, often by LeBron fans, against KD.

I don’t have a problem with LeBron’s moves. I do have a problem with his fans attributing the success of other great players to ‘advantages’ they had over LeBron. Staying at the one franchise may not be intrinsically more worthy that making multiple moves, but I don’t see how it is less worthy either.. and if he is allowed to make whatever FA moves he chooses, as he is imo, then so is every other player.

Not really the same thing.

Brooklyn and Phoenix were superteams by the silly definition (x# of "stars"). I don’t think many LeBron people care about those moves because they weren't teams with a consistent championship pedigree. In that regard those moves were similar to each of LeBron's moves. You can't be consistent in supporting LeBron's moves and opposing those ones.

Golden state however was already a champion with their existing core, had just put together the greatest season ever, had the two time reigning MVP, didn't have to sacrifice meaningful depth to acquire Durant, and had just knocked Durant out of the playoffs.

Comparing that move to any of LeBron's moves is not an honest comparison.

[NbaAllDay]

Yea i dont buy any of that at all. Not sure why anybody would want to leave Miami to go back to Cleveland that makes no sense. HOF head coach, Riley running the organization, no state taxes in Florida. Been to the finals twice since he left.

Makes no sense yet you parrot exactly what you "believe" Lebron was thinking.

The ironic hindsight of thinking joining a bottom feeder with 'Kyrie Irving' (pretending like he is a top 10 league player at the time to reinforce your narrative) with a number 1 pick that apparently is 'easy' to trade as if that's a better move than staying in Miami as you claim with a HOF coach, Riley, no state taxes and multiple finals runs.

Yet refuse that part of the decision was he wanted to go back to Cleveland as its his home town?

What narrative are you choosing here? Hard to keep up with the clown show.

Oh my gosh i don’t believe the narrative of why Lebron James went back to Cleveland……why are you so offended? Why does it bother you that people don’t believe everything that guy says? Chill man

Now that the double standard is called out you make a claim that I am offended and bothered?

Sounds like a classic deflection. Just because it bothers you, doesn't mean it bothers me. It just makes me laugh.

[ShootersShoot]

Yea i dont buy any of that at all. Not sure why anybody would want to leave Miami to go back to Cleveland that makes no sense. HOF head coach, Riley running the organization, no state taxes in Florida. Been to the finals twice since he left.

I can understand wanting to go back to cleveland, especially with their blue chip assets at the time. But what him leaving a few years later after coming back paints the narrative that he only went back because cle had very strong assets at the time. A few years later, once the teams outlook did not look as good, he left again. It makes him look more like a mercenary than some loyal to cleveland guy.

Now personally I dont care that bron did that nor do I think it was a bad move ethically, morally, or whatever. He is free to do as he wishes in regards to his career. But folks saying he is so loyal for going back to cleveland are being disingenuous imo. It was a great story but lets not pretend that he did it mainly because he missed cleveland that much.

You are going to get hammered by his fan club just hold on

Eh, I call things like I see it. If anyone can convince me otherwise using a solid argument then I got no problems with admitting I am wrong or changing my opinion.

I do believe bron wanted to establish goodwill with cleveland again and saw that the team could contend for a chip with him. I think it was a great decision honestly. I just dont believe he did it solely out of loyalty however but a combination of factors.

[Cavsfansince84]

The whole thing of using the word mercenary for LeBron is silly and has always been silly because a mercenary is primarily motivated by money and LeBron in some of these cases of moving teams got paid less(such as with going to Miami). The word mercenary also is used to imply lack of loyalty but the problem is that we are talking about pro sports and the word loyalty means almost nothing to the people who own the teams. So again, its a silly thing to imply with some kind moral underpinning because teams will trade guys whenever it benefits them 99.9% of the time. The only time it really means anything is when a team gives a guy who stayed with them a bonus contract towards the end to make up for him maybe making less before that. So again, all of this is silly with regard to LeBron or any nba player who switches teams.
We all know his primary motivation since leaving Clev in 2010 has been rings. So you can judge him by how he's played but again, what is the difference in LeBron trying to play on strong teams by pressuring a front office to make moves or a front office simply doing its job and doing things to build strong teams around mvp level players? What is the difference other than you think LeBron isn't doing it the same way that Russell, Magic, Bird or others who played for teams with great gms? I don't think there is any difference at all other than people hate that a player had the ability to do it for himself to some degree by recruiting or telling a gm to make a trade.

[Lala870]

The whole thing of using the word mercenary for LeBron is silly and has always been silly because a mercenary is primarily motivated by money and LeBron in some of these cases of moving teams got paid less(such as with going to Miami). The word mercenary also is used to imply lack of loyalty but the problem is that we are talking about pro sports and the word loyalty means almost nothing to the people who own the teams. So again, its a silly thing to imply with some kind moral underpinning because teams will trade guys whenever it benefits them 99.9% of the time. The only time it really means anything is when a team gives a guy who stayed with them a bonus contract towards the end to make up for him maybe making less before that. So again, all of this is silly with regard to LeBron or any nba player who switches teams.
We all know his primary motivation since leaving Clev in 2010 has been rings. So you can judge him by how he's played but again, what is the difference in LeBron trying to play on strong teams by pressuring a front office to make moves or an front office simply doing its job and doing things to build strong teams around mvp level players? What is the difference other than you think LeBron isn't doing it the same way that Russell, Magic, Bird or others who played for teams with great gms? I don't think there is any difference at all other than people hate that a player had the ability to do it for himself to some degree by recruiting or telling a gm to make a trade.

I dont think Lebron is solely motivated by splitting hairs on contract dollars. He has plenty of sponsors and outside PR groups that clearly compensate him.

isnt he a billionaire at this point?

Hes one of those athletes that transcends the sport itself in the likeness of Kobe, Jordan etc. I think he was on Jay-Z's athlete roster at one point but i dont remember.

[michaelm]

There have been several posts in this thread from people saying something like, "it's ok that he moved, it's just not ok where he moved". Of course, we never get told where it would have been acceptable for him to go. It's OK to go somewhere else, but not to go anywhere where he might have a strong roster. It's OK to move as long as he can't win when he does.

Ironically this is the argument advanced, often by LeBron fans, against KD.

I don’t have a problem with LeBron’s moves. I do have a problem with his fans attributing the success of other great players to ‘advantages’ they had over LeBron. Staying at the one franchise may not be intrinsically more worthy that making multiple moves, but I don’t see how it is less worthy either.. and if he is allowed to make whatever FA moves he chooses, as he is imo, then so is every other player.

Not really the same thing.

Brooklyn and Phoenix were superteams by the silly definition (x# of "stars"). I don’t think many LeBron people care about those moves because they weren't teams with a consistent championship pedigree. In that regard those moves were similar to each of LeBron's moves. You can't be consistent in supporting LeBron's moves and opposing those ones.

Golden state however was already a champion with their existing core, had just put together the greatest season ever, had the two time reigning MVP, didn't have to sacrifice meaningful depth to acquire Durant, and had just knocked Durant out of the playoffs.

Comparing that move to any of LeBron's moves is not an honest comparison.

QED. It’s different because it is LeBron.

[michaelm]

Bosh joined same time. It was a discussion between the 3.
Love was traded for by the Cavs after LeBron arrived.
Davis was traded for by the Lakers after LeBron arrived.

There were many more ready made teams he could have joined right?

Let's not act like Lebron didn't know exactly what was happening.

Even when he went to LA, my two friends (lebron fans, poor things) were bummed because they thought he ruined his winning chances.

I said "Don't worry, he's planning for either Davis or Kawhi to come to LA to form another ridiculous duo".

lo and behold.

Ok but even LeBron and AD isn’t some super stacked team. LeBron absolutely could’ve joined other teams and been almost guaranteed rings but he didn’t. Just like when he went back to Cleveland he could’ve joined other teams and had a better chance of winning but he wanted to make things right in Cleveland.

I think he deserves **** for the Miami move but going back to Cleveland and going to LA were far from stacking the deck and he could’ve if he wanted to.

No one has ever listed all the other realistic options he didn’t take. Joining the Big 3 Celtics after their last hurrah wouldn’t have been a good choice for him if he wanted not 4, not 5 etc even if salary cap rules allowed it.

He chose advantageous situations as a Free Agent which he was absolutely entitled to do, but I have seen any evidence that he has ever self-handicapped or placed any limitations in regard to which players he is prepared to join up with. He has his own player agency ffs which had AD as a client.

[ScrantonBulls]

Let's not act like Lebron didn't know exactly what was happening.

Even when he went to LA, my two friends (lebron fans, poor things) were bummed because they thought he ruined his winning chances.

I said "Don't worry, he's planning for either Davis or Kawhi to come to LA to form another ridiculous duo".

lo and behold.

Ok but even LeBron and AD isn’t some super stacked team. LeBron absolutely could’ve joined other teams and been almost guaranteed rings but he didn’t. Just like when he went back to Cleveland he could’ve joined other teams and had a better chance of winning but he wanted to make things right in Cleveland.

I think he deserves **** for the Miami move but going back to Cleveland and going to LA were far from stacking the deck and he could’ve if he wanted to.

No one has ever listed all the other realistic options he didn’t take. Joining the Big 3 Celtics after their last hurrah wouldn’t have been a good choice for him if he wanted not 4, not 5 etc even if salary cap rules allowed it.

He chose advantageous situations as a Free Agent which he was absolutely entitled to do, I have seen no evidence that he has ever self-handicapped or placed any limitations on which players he is prepared to join up with. He has his own player agency ffs which had AD as a client.

Is that owned by the same LLC of LeBron's that owns significant real estate in your head?

[michaelm]

The whole thing of using the word mercenary for LeBron is silly and has always been silly because a mercenary is primarily motivated by money and LeBron in some of these cases of moving teams got paid less(such as with going to Miami). The word mercenary also is used to imply lack of loyalty but the problem is that we are talking about pro sports and the word loyalty means almost nothing to the people who own the teams. So again, its a silly thing to imply with some kind moral underpinning because teams will trade guys whenever it benefits them 99.9% of the time. The only time it really means anything is when a team gives a guy who stayed with them a bonus contract towards the end to make up for him maybe making less before that. So again, all of this is silly with regard to LeBron or any nba player who switches teams.
We all know his primary motivation since leaving Clev in 2010 has been rings. So you can judge him by how he's played but again, what is the difference in LeBron trying to play on strong teams by pressuring a front office to make moves or a front office simply doing its job and doing things to build strong teams around mvp level players? What is the difference other than you think LeBron isn't doing it the same way that Russell, Magic, Bird or others who played for teams with great gms? I don't think there is any difference at all other than people hate that a player had the ability to do it for himself to some degree by recruiting or telling a gm to make a trade.

I believe mercenary is being used in the military sense, that he is a sword for hire, rather than making these moves mainly for his own financial benefit. He could be seen as a mercenary in that sense I guess, but I could see a case for the reverse, that he has perhaps employed several teams for his own ends, and good luck to him for doing so, the owners of NBA teams have made a fortune off the back of players such as him and Curry in the LeBron era.

Imo there is a dichotomy among NBA fandom between people who are fans of individual players and people who are fans teams/franchises with neither side seeing the perspective of the other, which I try to do but probably not very well.
I actually agree he has been the leader of an era of player empowerment, including a long term role with the Players’ Association. By and large his team mates have gotten paid rather than him asking them to take pay cuts which would probably have helped him in constructing his teams.

[Cavsfansince84]

I believe mercenary is being used in the military sense, that he is a sword for hire, rather than making these moves mainly for his own financial benefit. He could be seen as a mercenary in that sense I guess, but I could see a case for the reverse, that he has perhaps employed several teams for his own ends, and good luck to him for doing so, the owners of NBA teams have made a fortune off the back of players such as him and Curry in the LeBron era. Imo there is a dichotomy among NBA fandom between people who are fans of individual players and people who are fans teams/franchises with neither side seeing the perspective of the other, which I try to do but probably not very well.

I actually agree he has been the leader of an era of player empowerment, and had a long term role with the Players’ Association. By and large his team mates have gotten paid rather than him asking them to take pay cuts which would probably have helped him in constructing his teams.

The military sense is exactly what I was referring to which is a soldier whose main priority is money rather than loyalty to a country or a certain ruler. That's the standard definition. Nothing else you're saying above really needs a response. The whole idea of loyalty in professional sports was outdated 30 years ago when Roger Clemens and Wade Boggs spent 10+ years with the Red Sox then ended up going to the Yankees to win rings. It's not a real thing anymore, its only brought up with LeBron because some people have this endless axe to grind with him on message boards or in social media. It's also silly when people act like he left the Cavs high and dry in 2018 when the Cavs in their 40 years without LeBron have 0 finals appearance and with him have 5 finals and 1 ring. So our only mvp level player in franchise history had us trade some frps for actual team success as opposed to a previous owner who was trading them only for his own personal gain(Ted Stepien). As a Cavs fan, I think I'm ok with that.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Ironically this is the argument advanced, often by LeBron fans, against KD.

I don’t have a problem with LeBron’s moves. I do have a problem with his fans attributing the success of other great players to ‘advantages’ they had over LeBron. Staying at the one franchise may not be intrinsically more worthy that making multiple moves, but I don’t see how it is less worthy either.. and if he is allowed to make whatever FA moves he chooses, as he is imo, then so is every other player.

Not really the same thing.

Brooklyn and Phoenix were superteams by the silly definition (x# of "stars"). I don’t think many LeBron people care about those moves because they weren't teams with a consistent championship pedigree. In that regard those moves were similar to each of LeBron's moves. You can't be consistent in supporting LeBron's moves and opposing those ones.

Golden state however was already a champion with their existing core, had just put together the greatest season ever, had the two time reigning MVP, didn't have to sacrifice meaningful depth to acquire Durant, and had just knocked Durant out of the playoffs.

Comparing that move to any of LeBron's moves is not an honest comparison.

QED. It’s different because it is LeBron.

Yes, if you ignore everything that's different, it's the same.

[michaelm]

Ok but even LeBron and AD isn’t some super stacked team. LeBron absolutely could’ve joined other teams and been almost guaranteed rings but he didn’t. Just like when he went back to Cleveland he could’ve joined other teams and had a better chance of winning but he wanted to make things right in Cleveland.

I think he deserves **** for the Miami move but going back to Cleveland and going to LA were far from stacking the deck and he could’ve if he wanted to.

No one has ever listed all the other realistic options he didn’t take. Joining the Big 3 Celtics after their last hurrah wouldn’t have been a good choice for him if he wanted not 4, not 5 etc even if salary cap rules allowed it.

He chose advantageous situations as a Free Agent which he was absolutely entitled to do, I have seen no evidence that he has ever self-handicapped or placed any limitations on which players he is prepared to join up with. He has his own player agency ffs which had AD as a client.

Is that owned by the same LLC of LeBron's that owns significant real estate in your head?

I have repeatedly said on this and other threads that I have no problems with any of LeBron’s FA moves. But if those of your ilk are going to complain about the ‘advantages’ of other players he is afaik the only player to own a player agency while an active player, and AD who was a client of that agency and a top 5 player in the NBA at the time did leave another team mid contract to join LeBron. Both of those phenomena are actually factual in this reality rather than hypothetical and required no intrusion of LeBron into my headspace for me to notice them.

[zimpy27]

Let's not act like Lebron didn't know exactly what was happening.

Even when he went to LA, my two friends (lebron fans, poor things) were bummed because they thought he ruined his winning chances.

I said "Don't worry, he's planning for either Davis or Kawhi to come to LA to form another ridiculous duo".

lo and behold.

Ok but even LeBron and AD isn’t some super stacked team. LeBron absolutely could’ve joined other teams and been almost guaranteed rings but he didn’t. Just like when he went back to Cleveland he could’ve joined other teams and had a better chance of winning but he wanted to make things right in Cleveland.

I think he deserves **** for the Miami move but going back to Cleveland and going to LA were far from stacking the deck and he could’ve if he wanted to.

No one has ever listed all the other realistic options he didn’t take. Joining the Big 3 Celtics after their last hurrah wouldn’t have been a good choice for him if he wanted not 4, not 5 etc even if salary cap rules allowed it.

He chose advantageous situations as a Free Agent which he was absolutely entitled to do, but I have seen any evidence that he has ever self-handicapped or placed any limitations in regard to which players he is prepared to join up with. He has his own player agency ffs which had AD as a client.

Well Wade, Bosh union was player driven to succeed. It didn't matter that it was Miami.

The other 2 places he went to were about the location and historical connotations.

[michaelm]

Ok but even LeBron and AD isn’t some super stacked team. LeBron absolutely could’ve joined other teams and been almost guaranteed rings but he didn’t. Just like when he went back to Cleveland he could’ve joined other teams and had a better chance of winning but he wanted to make things right in Cleveland.

I think he deserves **** for the Miami move but going back to Cleveland and going to LA were far from stacking the deck and he could’ve if he wanted to.

No one has ever listed all the other realistic options he didn’t take. Joining the Big 3 Celtics after their last hurrah wouldn’t have been a good choice for him if he wanted not 4, not 5 etc even if salary cap rules allowed it.

He chose advantageous situations as a Free Agent which he was absolutely entitled to do, but I have seen any evidence that he has ever self-handicapped or placed any limitations in regard to which players he is prepared to join up with. He has his own player agency ffs which had AD as a client.

Well Wade, Bosh union was player driven to succeed. It didn't matter that it was Miami.

The other 2 places he went to were about the location and historical connotations.

As I have said I am absolutely fine with all LeBron’s FA moves. I found the move by AD a little malodorous given he was on a max contract elsewhere with several remaining years, but if he saw no future with his then current team and management and wanted to leave I guess that could be seen as his prerogative as well.

I started a discourse with someone who posited that non LeBron partisans had no right to expect LeBron to go somewhere where he wouldn’t be competitive, with which I absolutely agree. The poster then pivoted to arguing the opposite about KD, with him alone among FAs not having free choice, in particular from what I can glean apparently it not being allowable for his choice to result in a team LeBron’s team couldn’t beat.

[michaelm]

Not really the same thing.

Brooklyn and Phoenix were superteams by the silly definition (x# of "stars"). I don’t think many LeBron people care about those moves because they weren't teams with a consistent championship pedigree. In that regard those moves were similar to each of LeBron's moves. You can't be consistent in supporting LeBron's moves and opposing those ones.

Golden state however was already a champion with their existing core, had just put together the greatest season ever, had the two time reigning MVP, didn't have to sacrifice meaningful depth to acquire Durant, and had just knocked Durant out of the playoffs.

Comparing that move to any of LeBron's moves is not an honest comparison.

QED. It’s different because it is LeBron.

Yes, if you ignore everything that's different, it's the same.

There are differences admittedly, including that KD and a team of fellow 22 and 23 year olds had been beaten by the Heatles with no sympathy for being opposed by elite veteran players who had clubbed together on the Heatles roster, and that KD had sustained a career threatening injury while on his second contract with OKC which appeared not to have been overly well managed. The franchise to which he had given 8 years before becoming a FA was also in an entirely different city when he was drafted, so why any loyalty on his part was due to a franchise which had literally been hi-jacked to OKC has never been explained to me.

[Jta444]

He wasted that potential with Westbrook 3 years ago. Look at an older Westbrook now still flourishing on a great team. Lebron makes a lot of players worse with his brand of basketball. It racks up all the stats for him but at the cost of winning.

Look at most of his teams - full of talent and stacked rosters yet they usually underwhelm. Even 2 of his championship rosters needed bail out shots and Game 7’s. Lebron teams rarely dominate in the Finals. His ball dominant style makes him look good, but it makes winning harder. 4/22

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[Lalouie]

i don't think ring chasing has ever hurt anyone but then again he's the first goat candidate to do it

[MrTribbiani]

He wasted that potential with Westbrook 3 years ago. Look at an older Westbrook now still flourishing on a great team. Lebron makes a lot of players worse with his brand of basketball. It racks up all the stats for him but at the cost of winning.

Look at most of his teams - full of talent and stacked rosters yet they usually underwhelm. Even 2 of his championship rosters needed bail out shots and Game 7’s. Lebron teams rarely dominate in the Finals. His ball dominant style makes him look good, but it makes winning harder. 4/22

Westbrook is not flourishing lol. When he was with the Lakers he objectively played terribly. This past season he was better, but he isn't even a top 70 player in the NBA.

Most of the teams that LeBron has played on have not been "stacked" either.

[MavsDirk41]

He wasted that potential with Westbrook 3 years ago. Look at an older Westbrook now still flourishing on a great team. Lebron makes a lot of players worse with his brand of basketball. It racks up all the stats for him but at the cost of winning.

Look at most of his teams - full of talent and stacked rosters yet they usually underwhelm. Even 2 of his championship rosters needed bail out shots and Game 7’s. Lebron teams rarely dominate in the Finals. His ball dominant style makes him look good, but it makes winning harder. 4/22

Westbrook is not flourishing lol. When he was with the Lakers he objectively played terribly. This past season he was better, but he isn't even a top 70 player in the NBA.

Most of the teams that LeBron has played on have not been "stacked" either.

Luka, Wade, Bosh, Davis, Irving, Love….name a superstar who has played with more talent….