2025 NBA Draft Discussion Part 6

[ConSarnit]

I am saying a 25th ranked offense is getting significantly worse replacing RJ with a 3&D player, do you disagree?

They probably would do that trade if they could move off Green's contract and get some value for him. I think that's probably difficult to do though and a RJ + Green pairing isn't ideal.

RJ was about neutral as a defender last season, probably slightly above average as a man defender.

If you think RJ isn't valuable to the FO, Gradey must be completely useless to them.

Players shot +1.7% fg against RJ this year, which is not good. Opponents averaged 1.33ppp in isolation against RJ, which is terrible (2nd percentile league wide). There were 123 players who defended 50+ iso possessions this year. RJ was dead last in points per possession allowed.

So no, RJ was not above average as a man defender.

Eye Test and Numbers can say different things sometimes too I guess. Hard to believe he was in the 2nd percentile defending in isolation really and I think most people would probably say he looked improved as a man defender this past season. Am curious what he ranked in previous seasons.

Barrett had the exact same dfg% last year (1.7%). Last season his iso ppp was 0.96 (45th percentile). He was 93rd percentile with the Raptors last year over 32 possessions but was terrible with the Knicks.

By most accounts RJ was a better man defender last year than he was this year.

[dohboy_24]

When did RJ Barrett become a draft eligible prospect?

[ConSarnit]

He might end up going between 8-10 in a re-draft. RJ is still going top 6 in his. The harder part is predicting which 3&D players can get to OG's level, which is why you don't take them in the top 10.

If you went and named the top 10 3&D players, how many would have been drafted in the top 10? KCP might be the only one.

Are you talking about their respective drafts? Because OG’s draft is much stronger than RJ’s so it’s not exactly fair to compare them to their respective drafts.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Players shot +1.7% fg against RJ this year, which is not good. Opponents averaged 1.33ppp in isolation against RJ, which is terrible (2nd percentile league wide). There were 123 players who defended 50+ iso possessions this year. RJ was dead last in points per possession allowed.

So no, RJ was not above average as a man defender.

Eye Test and Numbers can say different things sometimes too I guess. Hard to believe he was in the 2nd percentile defending in isolation really and I think most people would probably say he looked improved as a man defender this past season. Am curious what he ranked in previous seasons.

Barrett had the exact same dfg% last year (1.7%). Last season his iso ppp was 0.96 (45th percentile). He was 93rd percentile with the Raptors last year over 32 possessions but was terrible with the Knicks.

By most accounts RJ was a better man defender last year than he was this year.

This is probably a noisy stat. Same stat identifies Scottie, OG and Jrue Holiday as below average man defenders, and Zach LaVine as elite. I'm not going to quibble that RJ is a bad defender, though. I think the team seems happy with his 2nd half effort, though.

I have nothing against adding defense as a primary skill in the mid lottery, but it'd better come with scoring potential. This Carter Bryant spamming has got to GTFO.

[PushDaRock]

Players shot +1.7% fg against RJ this year, which is not good. Opponents averaged 1.33ppp in isolation against RJ, which is terrible (2nd percentile league wide). There were 123 players who defended 50+ iso possessions this year. RJ was dead last in points per possession allowed.

So no, RJ was not above average as a man defender.

Eye Test and Numbers can say different things sometimes too I guess. Hard to believe he was in the 2nd percentile defending in isolation really and I think most people would probably say he looked improved as a man defender this past season. Am curious what he ranked in previous seasons.

Barrett had the exact same dfg% last year (1.7%). Last season his iso ppp was 0.96 (45th percentile). He was 93rd percentile with the Raptors last year over 32 possessions but was terrible with the Knicks.

By most accounts RJ was a better man defender last year than he was this year.

0.96 ppp to 1.33 ppp is horrific, not sure why that feels so off to me from the eye test. Even Masai was saying he got much better defensively too so it's a bit odd that the numbers say he got significantly worse instead.

[ATLTimekeeper]

He might end up going between 8-10 in a re-draft. RJ is still going top 6 in his. The harder part is predicting which 3&D players can get to OG's level, which is why you don't take them in the top 10.

If you went and named the top 10 3&D players, how many would have been drafted in the top 10? KCP might be the only one.

Are you talking about their respective drafts? Because OG’s draft is much stronger than RJ’s so it’s not exactly fair to compare them to their respective drafts.

To be clear, OG isn't cracking top 6 in RJ's draft.

[PushDaRock]

Eye Test and Numbers can say different things sometimes too I guess. Hard to believe he was in the 2nd percentile defending in isolation really and I think most people would probably say he looked improved as a man defender this past season. Am curious what he ranked in previous seasons.

Barrett had the exact same dfg% last year (1.7%). Last season his iso ppp was 0.96 (45th percentile). He was 93rd percentile with the Raptors last year over 32 possessions but was terrible with the Knicks.

By most accounts RJ was a better man defender last year than he was this year.

This is probably a noisy stat. Same stat identifies Scottie, OG and Jrue Holiday as below average man defenders, and Zach LaVine as elite. I'm not going to quibble that RJ is a bad defender, though. I think the team seems happy with his 2nd half effort, though.

I have nothing against adding defense as a primary skill in the mid lottery, but it'd better come with scoring potential. This Carter Bryant spamming has got to GTFO.

Interesting, yeah probably need to take any stat that has OG as a below average man defender with a grain of salt.

[WuTang_CMB]

Is some hypothetical trade rumor now considered fact?

Define difference maker. On our team that struggles to generate rim pressure, yes I think he makes a difference offensively for us.

The gushing over RJ is cute. Not sure why this board has such a hard on for him.


I don't think you understand the conversation if you are suggesting that HOU will trade Jalen Green for RJ and not Dillon Brooks. I think that cements my argument even with the "they struggled to score in game 7". Teams absolutely want offensive difference makers in the playoffs - guys that can create their own shot, be efficient and be somewhat neutral on defense. The better the offense, the more the team will be willing to accept less on the defensive end. Houston got to a game 7 because of their defense. Steph Curry admitted that was the toughest defense he has ever played against. The Rockets wouldn't even give up a role player like Brooks to bring in RJ because RJ's offense would not give them an edge and would lesser their team defense. It's pretty much that simple. He doesn't shoot the 3 all that well (especially contested), doesn't hit his free throws and his defense is subpar. Now going back to my point, teams absolutely love 3 and D guys in the playoffs because that's what matters from role players, not what RJ is doing. Good player but doesn't give you want you want out of a role player and not good enough to be a top 3 option in a playoff series which is why IMO Toronto would gladly move off of him for a better role player that fits (or eventually will over time like a CB)

lol not wanting to trade him for a 3&D player (Dorian Finney-Smith type) on a team that's already offensively challenged is considered gushing?

You admitting they wouldn't deal a defensive 3 and D type in Brooks for RJ proves my point of what these teams want in the playoffs.

[WuTang_CMB]

He might end up going between 8-10 in a re-draft. RJ is still going top 6 in his. The harder part is predicting which 3&D players can get to OG's level, which is why you don't take them in the top 10.

If you went and named the top 10 3&D players, how many would have been drafted in the top 10? KCP might be the only one.

Who cares where RJ would go in a re-draft? Lol
I'm talking about player A vs player B and what teams value in the playoffs. They absolutely value production from OG over RJ. Does NY regret doing that deal? No, they don't. Last night vs BOS he was 6/11 from 3, 75% from the line, with 29 points and guarding up and down the lineup. Lol what are we even talking about here.

[PushDaRock]

The gushing over RJ is cute. Not sure why this board has such a hard on for him.


I don't think you understand the conversation if you are suggesting that HOU will trade Jalen Green for RJ and not Dillon Brooks. I think that cements my argument even with the "they struggled to score in game 7". Teams absolutely want offensive difference makers in the playoffs - guys that can create their own shot, be efficient and be somewhat neutral on defense. The better the offense, the more the team will be willing to accept less on the defensive end. Houston got to a game 7 because of their defense. Steph Curry admitted that was the toughest defense he has ever played against. The Rockets wouldn't even give up a role player like Brooks to bring in RJ because RJ's offense would not give them an edge and would lesser their team defense. It's pretty much that simple. He doesn't shoot the 3 all that well (especially contested), doesn't hit his free throws and his defense is subpar. Now going back to my point, teams absolutely love 3 and D guys in the playoffs because that's what matters from role players, not what RJ is doing. Good player but doesn't give you want you want out of a role player and not good enough to be a top 3 option in a playoff series which is why IMO Toronto would gladly move off of him for a better role player that fits (or eventually will over time like a CB)

lol not wanting to trade him for a 3&D player (Dorian Finney-Smith type) on a team that's already offensively challenged is considered gushing?

You admitting they wouldn't deal a defensive 3 and D type in Brooks for RJ proves my point of what these teams want in the playoffs.

k

[ATLTimekeeper]

He might end up going between 8-10 in a re-draft. RJ is still going top 6 in his. The harder part is predicting which 3&D players can get to OG's level, which is why you don't take them in the top 10.

If you went and named the top 10 3&D players, how many would have been drafted in the top 10? KCP might be the only one.

Who cares where RJ would go in a re-draft? Lol
I'm talking about player A vs player B and what teams value in the playoffs. They absolutely value production from OG over RJ. Does NY regret doing that deal? No, they don't. Last night vs BOS he was 6/11 from 3, 75% from the line, with 29 points and guarding up and down the lineup. Lol what are we even talking about here.

This is the draft thread? Go get some sunlight.

[WuTang_CMB]

He might end up going between 8-10 in a re-draft. RJ is still going top 6 in his. The harder part is predicting which 3&D players can get to OG's level, which is why you don't take them in the top 10.

If you went and named the top 10 3&D players, how many would have been drafted in the top 10? KCP might be the only one.

Who cares where RJ would go in a re-draft? Lol
I'm talking about player A vs player B and what teams value in the playoffs. They absolutely value production from OG over RJ. Does NY regret doing that deal? No, they don't. Last night vs BOS he was 6/11 from 3, 75% from the line, with 29 points and guarding up and down the lineup. Lol what are we even talking about here.

This is the draft thread? Go get some sunlight.

Take your own medicine. Don't respond if you can't get into it

[WuTang_CMB]

Read on Twitter

Both Fears and Tre Johnson will be getting looks even higher than this slot -- potentially starting at No. 3, as there is quite a bit of enthusiasm in NBA circles around both prospects' long-term futures. Fears' late-season performances in the SEC and NCAA tournaments highlighted the significant star power and potential he possesses as a primary shot creator who can get paint touches at will, score in a variety of ways and find teammates creatively on the move.

Johnson's superior positional fit (alongside Tyrese Maxey and Jared McCain), readiness to contribute and his size and length will keep him firmly in conversations here, too, with the outcome of workouts, interviews and background research likely to have significant sway in which direction the Sixers (or other teams picking in this range) end up going. -- Givony

[Dalek]

Read on Twitter

Both Fears and Tre Johnson will be getting looks even higher than this slot -- potentially starting at No. 3, as there is quite a bit of enthusiasm in NBA circles around both prospects' long-term futures. Fears' late-season performances in the SEC and NCAA tournaments highlighted the significant star power and potential he possesses as a primary shot creator who can get paint touches at will, score in a variety of ways and find teammates creatively on the move.

Johnson's superior positional fit (alongside Tyrese Maxey and Jared McCain), readiness to contribute and his size and length will keep him firmly in conversations here, too, with the outcome of workouts, interviews and background research likely to have significant sway in which direction the Sixers (or other teams picking in this range) end up going. -- Givony

It is funny because NBA draft people obsess over length, but when we watch the playoffs often the big game changers are the guards who can self-create. The big factor of how teams get away with flooding their line-ups with guards is the use of zone defense. Obviously from time to time you can get burned, but the benefits of having creators is real.

Both Fears and Johnson are dynamic and can score in different ways. I still don't know if anyone bites in the top five, but they are clearly top 8.

[LoveMyRaps]

Traore was in top 5 talks prior to the season. His slow start tanked his stock, even though he was playing against grown men and not college players.

Nolan Traore last 13 games:
13ppg, 5apg, 2.7TOV, while shooting 44% from 3 and 83% from the FT line.

If these were his season numbers, he'd still be in top 5 talks. But now he seems like an afterthought and most mocks have him outside their top 10.

I'm glad the Raps FO haven't stopped believing in him and continue to attend his games. Masai & Bobby see the vision.

[Indeed]

The gushing over RJ is cute. Not sure why this board has such a hard on for him.


I don't think you understand the conversation if you are suggesting that HOU will trade Jalen Green for RJ and not Dillon Brooks. I think that cements my argument even with the "they struggled to score in game 7". Teams absolutely want offensive difference makers in the playoffs - guys that can create their own shot, be efficient and be somewhat neutral on defense. The better the offense, the more the team will be willing to accept less on the defensive end. Houston got to a game 7 because of their defense. Steph Curry admitted that was the toughest defense he has ever played against. The Rockets wouldn't even give up a role player like Brooks to bring in RJ because RJ's offense would not give them an edge and would lesser their team defense. It's pretty much that simple. He doesn't shoot the 3 all that well (especially contested), doesn't hit his free throws and his defense is subpar. Now going back to my point, teams absolutely love 3 and D guys in the playoffs because that's what matters from role players, not what RJ is doing. Good player but doesn't give you want you want out of a role player and not good enough to be a top 3 option in a playoff series which is why IMO Toronto would gladly move off of him for a better role player that fits (or eventually will over time like a CB)

lol not wanting to trade him for a 3&D player (Dorian Finney-Smith type) on a team that's already offensively challenged is considered gushing?

You admitting they wouldn't deal a defensive 3 and D type in Brooks for RJ proves my point of what these teams want in the playoffs.

We already have one in Barnes (without the 3).

[gerrit4]

Read on Twitter

Both Fears and Tre Johnson will be getting looks even higher than this slot -- potentially starting at No. 3, as there is quite a bit of enthusiasm in NBA circles around both prospects' long-term futures. Fears' late-season performances in the SEC and NCAA tournaments highlighted the significant star power and potential he possesses as a primary shot creator who can get paint touches at will, score in a variety of ways and find teammates creatively on the move.

Johnson's superior positional fit (alongside Tyrese Maxey and Jared McCain), readiness to contribute and his size and length will keep him firmly in conversations here, too, with the outcome of workouts, interviews and background research likely to have significant sway in which direction the Sixers (or other teams picking in this range) end up going. -- Givony

It is funny because NBA draft people obsess over length, but when we watch the playoffs often the big game changers are the guards who can self-create. The big factor of how teams get away with flooding their line-ups with guards is the use of zone defense. Obviously from time to time you can get burned, but the benefits of having creators is real.

Both Fears and Johnson are dynamic and can score in different ways. I still don't know if anyone bites in the top five, but they are clearly top 8.

Is that true? I'd argue that the most dominant playoff performers of the past ten years have been Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Jokic, Giannis and Curry - so that only really means one of the top 6 (and arguably the sixth best playoff performer of the group). So while smaller guards are valuable, it's easy to see why someone would rather want the next KD instead of the next Kyrie (although either is very valuable).

[WuTang_CMB]

Watch on YouTube

[Dalek]

I think the sleeper lotto pick of the draft has to be Nique Clifford. I get that he is 23 but he tests out as the most versatile player in the draft for me.

He can defend from 1-4 just given his strength and smarts on defense. (Defensive rating of 95.5 and a box plus-minus of 11.2)
He can run pick and roll and a great playmaker (2.5 AST to TO; while having a 27.7 percent usage)
He can play offball and spot-up shoot.

This season, CSU's had an 11-game winning streak and Clifford has averaged 21.4 points per game, 8.9 rebounds per game and 5.2 assists per game. A feat that no other Div1 player has done before.

Hardworking and skilled player who is really engaging.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=LeagueHim

I know there are a lot of lotto options, but he is now in my top 10 for Toronto.

[WuTang_CMB]

You admitting they wouldn't deal a defensive 3 and D type in Brooks for RJ proves my point of what these teams want in the playoffs.

We already have one in Barnes (without the 3).

Barnes is not a role player.