2024-25 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread

[Texas Chuck]

Definitely fair. But even if he wasn't allow to sell off for futures, he is responsible for his talent evaluation and putting a lineup together and he's absolutely butchered that. Even if you have to try and be competitive, you shouldn't acquire those players, and well they were the absolute worst team in the league. They couldn't even Chicago Bulls their way to 9th --another team that doesn't know how to rebuild, but there we know the problem is at the very top. Much like Sacramento.

Masai is supposed to have near unilateral authority though so I'm not as sold on its being forced on him, though you are correct I can't rule it out.

[AEnigma]

I think the reality is that VanVleet, Siakam & OG remain valuable commodities so it's not that he waited too long on an asset and it stopped having any value, but that Masai seemed to just decide that Scottie Barnes was his franchise player, and so if the team wasn't winning with Barnes and those other guys, those other guys were the problem.

This feels like a needlessly simplistic mischaracterisation. We can fairly question the logic of picking Barnes over Siakam, and that decision will be worse for every year Siakam remains a better player than Barnes, but there is no reason to assume the motivation there was some secret belief that Barnes was already better and more valuable than Siakam.

Of course they still have value but he realized none of it. He made really bad trades with the two forwards after waiting too long(that Knicks trade in particular is just so so bad)

This stance is ludicrous to me. Anunoby is not worth his contract or particularly close to it (great Game 1 against the Celtics though!), and abstract non-lottery picks are not more valuable than receiving two decent starters.

The Siakam trade is the one you could justifiably frame as “bad” in the sense that 1) he was traded for less than he was worth, and 2) there was no real need to trade him rather than just keep him as the face of the franchise, but both of those are criticisms of the decision to trade him at all. What exactly suggests to you that a better offer was on the table, or that Siakam’s market was appreciably better if he had been traded earlier — at least in any sense beyond “our team is not a contender, therefore we should immediately trade all our best assets.”

just let FVV walk when they are desperate for a guy just like him.

??? Why exactly should they have paid VanVleet $40 million??????

Then he doubles down by extending IQ to a big number

Seems like if he did not, you would be complaining about that too.

and trading for BI

I do not like Ingram much, but this very obviously does not hurt the team in any way beyond how it makes their lottery odds worse.

and trading for Poeltl.

This one was definitely a misstep… but it is likely that the eighth pick in a typical draft does not end up representing anything more valuable than Poeltl anyway.

Its just a masterclass in how not to rebuild.

Successful rebuilds depend on hitting on an elite draft prospect, which is not really in a GM’s control, receiving a gross overpay for superstar assets, which the Raptors did not have, or managing to sign (or “sign”) a transformational superstar, which is not realistically in the cards for the Raptors. There is no secret trick otherwise. Without stars, there is no “successful rebuild” — and here you are advocating they should have been more desperate to trade the star they actually did have.

This is what happens when player providence does not shine upon you. How many teams do you think can be said to have managed a truly successful rebuild in the past fifteen years, and what path did they take that the Raptors somehow failed to take. Did they have the option to rebuild the way the Celtics did after 2013? No. Seeing as they have failed to draft MVP-level players, the rebuild “strategies” of the Nuggets, Warriors, Bucks, 76ers, and Spurs are all out, and hey, throw the Mavericks in there too. No superstar seems to have actively sought to join the team in free agency, so that Lakers/Heat/Clippers/Knicks (and 2015-18 Cavaliers) strategy is out. Unless Quickley or Ingram suddenly surprise everyone, they have not managed to make a cheap trade for an undervalued star like we saw with the 2022-23 Pacers, the 2020-21 Suns, or the 2012-13 Rockets, or like the Raptors themselves did twice with Lowry (star level) and then Kawhi (superstar level); also, on the Suns note, it is not like the Raptors have drafted a Booker-level talent either.

This is the reality for over half the league. Most GMing is work done on the margins while setting yourself up to take advantage of one of those truly transformative opportunities. If those opportunities do not manifest, then your “rebuild” is hard-capped from the outset. And any decent fan, executive, or owner should understand that dynamic.

[Doctor MJ]

I think the reality is that VanVleet, Siakam & OG remain valuable commodities so it's not that he waited too long on an asset and it stopped having any value, but that Masai seemed to just decide that Scottie Barnes was his franchise player, and so if the team wasn't winning with Barnes and those other guys, those other guys were the problem.

This feels like a needlessly simplistic mischaracterisation. We can fairly question the logic of picking Barnes over Siakam, and that decision will be worse for every year Siakam remains a better player than Barnes, but there is no reason to assume the motivation there was some secret belief that Barnes was already better and more valuable than Siakam.

So, perfectly fine to say "They chose Barnes over the others because they thought he'd get better than them in the future". I'm being critical because I'm skeptical this was a reasonable projection.

To be clear: Not saying Pascal should have been the alpha of the rebuild either, only that Pascal's spent most of his career as being very effective on winning teams as something other than an alpha, whereas by contrast Barnes has been positioned by Masai as an alpha and to this point it just hasn't worked.

[Doctor MJ]

So the official EOY results were released:

1. Sam Presti (OKC)
2. Koby Altman (CLE)
3. Trajan Langdon (DET)

Followed by: Rafael Stone (HOU), Lawrence Frank (LAC)

I find it absolutely fascinating that Rob Pelinka isn't on here given the Luka. Understandable for any individual voter to say "It wasn't really about that GM, he just got lucky", but that's not my sense of how GMs in the past have voted for EOY. Feels like there was some bitterness against Pelinka and the Lakers.

Perhaps similarly, no love for Mike Dunleavy for bringing Jimmy Butler to GS.

[Special_Puppy]

So the official EOY results were released:

1. Sam Presti (OKC)
2. Koby Altman (CLE)
3. Trajan Langdon (DET)

Followed by: Rafael Stone (HOU), Lawrence Frank (LAC)

I find it absolutely fascinating that Rob Pelinka isn't on here given the Luka. Understandable for any individual voter to say "It wasn't really about that GM, he just got lucky", but that's not my sense of how GMs in the past have voted for EOY. Feels like there was some bitterness against Pelinka and the Lakers.

Perhaps similarly, no love for Mike Dunleavy for bringing Jimmy Butler to GS.

Seems like they are mostly rewarding cumulative work with the Presti and Altman picks with a nod towards Langdon's roster additions saving the Pistons rebuild.

[AEnigma]

I think the reality is that VanVleet, Siakam & OG remain valuable commodities so it's not that he waited too long on an asset and it stopped having any value, but that Masai seemed to just decide that Scottie Barnes was his franchise player, and so if the team wasn't winning with Barnes and those other guys, those other guys were the problem.

This feels like a needlessly simplistic mischaracterisation. We can fairly question the logic of picking Barnes over Siakam, and that decision will be worse for every year Siakam remains a better player than Barnes, but there is no reason to assume the motivation there was some secret belief that Barnes was already better and more valuable than Siakam.

So, perfectly fine to say "They chose Barnes over the others because they thought he'd get better than them in the future". I'm being critical because I'm skeptical this was a reasonable projection.

To be clear: Not saying Pascal should have been the alpha of the rebuild either, only that Pascal's spent most of his career as being very effective on winning teams as something other than an alpha, whereas by contrast Barnes has been positioned by Masai as an alpha and to this point it just hasn't worked.

Agree with this. The Raptors are not an information sieve the way some teams are, so it is possible that Siakam communicated he did not want to go through a lengthy rebuild, but generally it seems like the bigger issue was Masai wanting to avoid a situation where he was paying. 33/34-year-old Siakam $50 million… which ultimately demands he form a team that puts that cap percentage to significantly better use.

[Special_Puppy]

I think the reality is that VanVleet, Siakam & OG remain valuable commodities so it's not that he waited too long on an asset and it stopped having any value, but that Masai seemed to just decide that Scottie Barnes was his franchise player, and so if the team wasn't winning with Barnes and those other guys, those other guys were the problem.

This feels like a needlessly simplistic mischaracterisation. We can fairly question the logic of picking Barnes over Siakam, and that decision will be worse for every year Siakam remains a better player than Barnes, but there is no reason to assume the motivation there was some secret belief that Barnes was already better and more valuable than Siakam.

Of course they still have value but he realized none of it. He made really bad trades with the two forwards after waiting too long(that Knicks trade in particular is just so so bad)

This stance is ludicrous to me. Anunoby is not worth his contract or particularly close to it (great Game 1 against the Celtics though!), and abstract non-lottery picks are not more valuable than receiving two decent starters.

The Siakam trade is the one you could justifiably frame as “bad” in the sense that 1) he was traded for less than he was worth, and 2) there was no real need to trade him rather than just keep him as the face of the franchise, but both of those are criticisms of the decision to trade him at all. What exactly suggests to you that a better offer was on the table, or that Siakam’s market was appreciably better if he had been traded earlier — at least in any sense beyond “our team is not a contender, therefore we should immediately trade all our best assets.”

just let FVV walk when they are desperate for a guy just like him.

??? Why exactly should they have paid VanVleet $40 million??????

Then he doubles down by extending IQ to a big number

Seems like if he did not, you would be complaining about that too.

and trading for BI

I do not like Ingram much, but this very obviously does not hurt the team in any way beyond how it makes their lottery odds worse.

and trading for Poeltl.

This one was definitely a misstep… but it is likely that the eighth pick in a typical draft does not end up representing anything more valuable than Poeltl anyway.

Its just a masterclass in how not to rebuild.

Successful rebuilds depend on hitting on an elite draft prospect, which is not really in a GM’s control, receiving a gross overpay for superstar assets, which the Raptors did not have, or managing to sign (or “sign”) a transformational superstar, which is not realistically in the cards for the Raptors. There is no secret trick otherwise. Without stars, there is no “successful rebuild” — and here you are advocating they should have been more desperate to trade the star they actually did have.

This is what happens when player providence does not shine upon you. How many teams do you think can be said to have managed a truly successful rebuild in the past fifteen years, and what path did they take that the Raptors somehow failed to take. Did they have the option to rebuild the way the Celtics did after 2013? No. Seeing as they have failed to draft MVP-level players, the rebuild “strategies” of the Nuggets, Warriors, Bucks, 76ers, and Spurs are all out, and hey, throw the Mavericks in there too. No superstar seems to have actively sought to join the team in free agency, so that Lakers/Heat/Clippers/Knicks (and 2015-18 Cavaliers) strategy is out. Unless Quickley or Ingram suddenly surprise everyone, they have not managed to make a cheap trade for an undervalued star like we saw with the 2022-23 Pacers, the 2020-21 Suns, or the 2012-13 Rockets, or like the Raptors themselves did twice with Lowry (star level) and then Kawhi (superstar level); also, on the Suns note, it is not like the Raptors have drafted a Booker-level talent either.

This is the reality for over half the league. Most GMing is work done on the margins while setting yourself up to take advantage of one of those truly transformative opportunities. If those opportunities do not manifest, then your “rebuild” is hard-capped from the outset. And any decent fan, executive, or owner should understand that dynamic.

Agree with most of this. Main criticisms of Masai for me are
-Blowing it up too late. If he blew it up after the 2022 season, he would have gotten something for FVV instead of nothing. Also would have gotten more for Siakam and OG as they wouldn't be on expiring contracts. Also would have saved them from the Poeltl trade and would have given them a chance of winning the Wemby lottery
-Not completely bottoming out. They're in the hell zone of being bad, but not being bad enough to get access to the true bluechip prospects.

Totally possible that they would have still not been in a good position (building a contender is hard!).

[Texas Chuck]

just let FVV walk when they are desperate for a guy just like him.

??? Why exactly should they have paid VanVleet $40 million??????

Then he doubles down by extending IQ to a big number

Seems like if he did not, you would be complaining about that too.

.

I hate the giant quote every line and try and pick it apart approach. Never understood that. So just going to focus on these because my position seems so clear and yet you try and change it.

I think FVV at $40M is much better than IQ at $30M because now the lineup makes a lot more sense and clearly they are trying to win now handing out all these long-term deals and getting right up against tax. So if you are spending big money get a player who helps. And save the $10M elsewhere.

And no, I criticize the trade then I criticize the contract and your takeaway is that I would be mad if they didn't pay a guy I didn't want them to trade for and didn't want them to pay?

Yeah its easy to call other takes ludicrous when you just make up the opposite stance from what they took and assign to them with absolutely no basis other than your own imagination. Because it "seems like it". Even though I only said the opposite. Bizarre.

Take issue with my post. Maybe this is a great rebuild despite the lack of results and flexibility. But at least don't assign me opposite positions from the ones I actually take lol.

[AEnigma]

just let FVV walk when they are desperate for a guy just like him.

??? Why exactly should they have paid VanVleet $40 million??????

Then he doubles down by extending IQ to a big number

Seems like if he did not, you would be complaining about that too.

.

I hate the giant quote every line and try and pick it apart approach. Never understood that. So just going to focus on these because my position seems so clear and yet you try and change it.

I think FVV at $40M is much better than IQ at $30M because now the lineup makes a lot more sense and clearly they are trying to win now handing out all these long-term deals and getting right up against tax. So if you are spending big money get a player who helps. And save the $10M elsewhere.

They are trying to build a core for the future. VanVleet being a better player than Quickley now does not do anything for them long term. Extremely basic rebuilding concept, and extremely self-evident by basically every move they have made over the past two years.

And no, I criticize the trade then I criticize the contract and your takeaway is that I would be mad if they didn't pay a guy I didn't want them to trade for and didn't want them to pay?

No, my takeaway is that you have no principled criticism here and are just backforming explanations for why the rebuild is not succeeding, when the painfully obvious answer for anyone who is actually interested in thinking about GM strategy is “they are pursuing young players with theoretical upside in the hope that one of them blossoms into an actual star… and none of them have.”

On that note, while I do not think I have ever seen any absolute confirmation that this was on the table, if rumours are accurate, then the worst “failure” of the rebuild process was not trading Lowry for Maxey in 2021.

Yeah its easy to call other takes ludicrous when you just make up the opposite stance from what they took and assign to them with absolutely no basis other than your own imagination. Because it "seems like it". Even though I only said the opposite. Bizarre.

Take issue with my post. Maybe this is a great rebuild despite the lack of results and flexibility. But at least don't assign me opposite positions from the ones I actually take lol.

Hilarious.

[Texas Chuck]

Yeah so I don't like the players and don't think they have upside. Hence the criticism. You think they are higher upside guys. Great we disagree.

Right now the results are in my favor. Bad team, no flexibility. Maybe we see large internal growth from players who've been in the league long enough and haven't shown us any reason to believe other than I guess young? But I'm going to go with track record, poor fit, and lack of flexibility and say I don't believe Masai has done a very good job the last several seasons putting it together.

Enough of my derail though.

[AEnigma]

Yeah so I don't like the players and don't think they have upside. Hence the criticism.

It is empty criticism. At no point in this chain have you articulated a legitimate rebuilding path which would have the Raptors as a consistent playoff presence.

You think they are higher upside guys. Great we disagree.

Nope, once again, you invented a position that was easier for you to write off.

Right now the results are in my favor.

The “failed rebuild” results are in the favour of any team without a legitimate star player. Rather than recognise that, you incoherently attacked this specific attempt to search for those stars because you have no appreciation for the realities of long-term rebuilds.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm really perplexed by people who vote for GM of the Year while believing the NBA secretly forces teams to make trades and manipulates the draft lottery. If you believe the later it is impossible to evaluate GMs. Indeed if you believe a really strong version of the "NBA dictates trades/manipulates lottery outcomes" theory GMing is a sham since all decisions secretly goes through whoever controls Silver.

[AEnigma]

Initial thoughts.

Player of the Year
1. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
2. Nikola Jokic
3. Giannis Antetokounmpo
4. Jayson Tatum
5. TBD

Top three are reasonably secure, and Shai specifically will be on the ballot regardless of what happens in the postseason. Tatum needs to make the conference finals, because right now I just have him as something of a de facto fourth by yet again playing significant minutes and not missing much time for a top three team in the league, but he has the inside track in a way I do not think anyone else does.

Through two rounds, the top three seems secure; if Shai severely disappoints then Jokic to move ahead, but nothing in their series did all to much to affect either’s candidacy for me. Final two will be whichever of Haliburton/Brunson makes the Finals, and then either Edwards or the eastern conference finals loser.

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Draymond Green
2. Evan Mobley
3. TBD

I expect the top two will stay top two in some order. In consideration for the other spot are JJJ, Gobert, Giannis, Zubac (hard for me to take him over Gobert though), maybe Amen… Chet is in the back of my mind but would essentially need to win Finals MVP for me to overlook all the missed time.

Feel shakier about this. Gobert probably has secured a spot. Mobley and Draymond both took a hit, but how much of one is at least partially influenced by these last three series (e.g. if the Pacers/Wolves win the title, that makes the Cavaliers/Warriors’ loss easier to forgive).

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Nikola Jokic
2. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
3. Tyrese Haliburton
HM: Luka Doncic

Not much change from last year, with Luka picking up an injury penalty and Shai elevating his scoring to legendary levels. Luka can excuse the missed time with an impressive postseason and/or some Haliburton postseason faltering. Anyone else would require at minimum a Finals run, although for bracket reasons I suppose I could see myself considering Trae in a (ludicrous) hypothetical where he upsets the Cavaliers, out-duels Haliburton in a second upset, and then continues playing like a superstar in a conference finals loss.

Top three is nearly locked. Right now I have moved Haliburton above Shai, but that can change. Brunson the new dark horse over Luka (path is outperforming at least one of Haliburton and Shai, and preferably both).

[Doctor MJ]

Replying to my post from after Round 1 with new Round 2 thoughts in magenta.

Alright so checking in after the 1st round and with us also having a good sense of how the official regular season awards ended up.

MVP voting (likely):
1. SGA
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Tatum
5. Mitchell

Was a pretty definitive Top 5 for the official voters at least - people should break in where they feel like rebelling! - and I feel like not much happened to shake this up in the 1st round, and it's unlikely that anyone (other than Giannis) already eliminated will make a serious POY run. Stars of other teams that are left:

Knicks: Brunson or KAT
Pacers: Haliburton or Siakam
Wolves: Ant
Warriors: Steph

Feels like the Wolves vs Warriors series will likely make either Ant or Steph a strong Top 5 contender with Mitchell in particular looking vulnerable.
For Knicks & Pacers, seems like it would take a lot for one of their guys to break into the Top 5.

Well now how 'bout that? Mitchell played like a damn martyr out there, but yeah, I think we're going to be considering the stars of the low seeded teams that got to this round, and at least one of those will lead his team to the final.

I'm not going to say that the top 3 are locks, because the final 2 rounds are always HUGE in our consideration, but they feel like a trio that could very easily still feel like the best 3 players in the league to most regardless of what the non-SGA stars do going forward.

I do need to pour one out specifically for Steph, whose injury may have been all that kept him from being on this list, and who we never really know if we're going to get to see him be HIM one more time. I'll be really pulling for Golden State to have their best possible run next year - I don't expect it to lead to a title even in that scenario, but I'd like to see them doing what they do and see how far that takes them against this next-gen Western Conference buzzsaw.

I'll also offer best wishes to Tatum, who I think can recover and still get better as a player.

OPOY of course doesn't have an official award but for the modern NBA probably tends to align pretty well with the MVP.

I felt like Jokic & SGA were a pretty clear 1 & 2 here respectively in the RS and after that it was tricky. I was shouting out Garland for the 3rd spot, but his placement was precarious.

Welp, Garland's out. Guys still in have a real good shot to make my ballot. I'll give a particular shout out to Tyrese Haliburton here, because I could see some magic happening in Indiana.

DPOY voting:

1. Mobley
2. Dyson
3. Draymond

Followed by: Dort, Amen, Zubac, JJJ

So Dyson, Amen, Zubac & JJJ's teams all got eliminated, leaving only Mobley, Draymond & Dort from this group.

Zubac & Amen were my top 2 guys in the regular season and I didn't think they seriously disappointed with their playoff run, but Draymond doing his playoff thing and moving forward makes him a very serious candidate for me. Mobley also has an open runway to impress...but first they'll need to come back against the Pacers.

In terms of guys from the other teams still in it:

OKC - will mention because of how dominant they were, anyone want to champion someone other than Dort?
BOS - White?
NYK - OG?
IND - Pascal?
DEN - Gordon?
MIN - Gobert!

Well, now Draymond & Mobley's seasons are over too. This is going to get really interesting, and Gobert looms large.

btw, on OKC & Dort: It's real tough to be a DPOY candidate when you get supplanted during a playoff series like Caruso & Wallace did to him. Doesn't necessarily mean those guys are better defenders of course, but I mean, it's Caruso, the argument against him is supposed to be that the coach plays you more.

ROY voting:

1. Castle
2. Risacher
3. Wells

Followed by: Sarr, Edey & Kel'el

Honestly, I'm quite apathetic about this, anyone have passionate thoughts?

Is there any rookie left we should be talking about?

MIP voting:

1. Dyson (ATL)
2. Zubac (LAC)
3. Cade (DET)

Followed by: Braun, Reaves, Mobley, Amen

This is an award where statistical differences tend to really pop so I expect we'll get there along the way.

I have some skepticism toward Dyson that I'd appreciate people try to win me over on - lots of steals on a bad defense on a disappointing team?

On the other hand, I think Zubac hasn't gotten anywhere near enough love for the leap he's made. He's my #1 right now.

I like all the other guys that are listed above, but I do have a bias toward guys I see as reaching all-star level for the first time. I think Zubac reached that level even if he didn't get picked, and of course Cade & Mobley did make it. Love Braun & Reaves but they're a tier lower...Amen I'd listen to the case for.

Not sure I have new feelings here. Still leaning Zubac here.

6MOY voting:

1. Pritchard (BOS)
2. Beasley (DET)
3. Jerome (CLE)

Followed by: Hunter, Naz, NAW, Westbrook, Caruso

Pritchard & Jerome are to me classic strong candidates.

I struggle in taking seriously 6th Men from middling teams like Beasley. I can acknowledge the possibility that such a player might actually be the most effective 6th man in the league, but it just seems to me that if a player really is that good, he should be starting for that team.

Hunter had a weird season, but if he ends up seeming the better guy on a great Cavs playoff run relative to Jerome, I could see it.

Naz' lack of hype for this award this year is telling. He won it last year, remained eligible and got better, yet it seems like people were content to think "Ah, he already got his"...but that's weird! Historically there hasn't been a great reluctance to have back-to-back winners in this award, but this year it feels like that's effectively what happened outcome-wise. (The fact that fellow Wolf NAW is on this list further showcases that there wasn't passionate support for Naz.)

Let's note Caruso's mention is just a single 3rd place vote, but I think it's at least chewing on who OKC's 6th man candidate should be, and how highly we should view Caruso given his minutes being limited even relative to 6MOY competition.

So, Caruso now is now acting as a clear cut 6th man level for the Thunder. Seriously thinking about him, though Pritchard had a hell of a year.

Beyond them, all the guys who got official votes are gone except for the Timberwolves duo (Naz & NAW). As mentioned, I think Naz is a strong candidate.

Looking at the other teams, seems like Toppin for the Pacers and McBride for the Knicks are worth considering but aren't super-compelling.

COY voting (likely):

1. Atikinson (CLE)
2. Bickerstaff (DET)
3. Udoka (HOU)

Follwed by: Lue (LAC)

Of these guys, only Atkinson is still going after the first round. That hurts for my assessment definitely, but then I'm also prone to favoring guys with elite teams because I just don't want to give the nod to coaches doing good work reaching mediocrity who may struggle hanging with the big boys in June.

Much will depend on how it all plays out, but I do feel like Daigneault will be hard not to vote for if OKC just plows through the playoffs - and while maybe that's true of any coach who does that - OKC seems like the state-of-the-art.

Thinking a lot about Carlisle for what he's doing in Indiana as well as Finch for Minny.

Feel like Thibs didn't so much out-adjust the Celtics but benefitted from his players being settled. Maybe I'm overestimating it, but Brunson seems to have a safety-blanket like effect on his teammates.

EOY we don't have access to any voting data so far but key guys on my mind:

Rob Pelinka (LAL) - got Luka
Mike Dunleavy (GS) - got Jimmy
Koby Altman (CLE) - hired Atkinson, possible cumulative achievement edge
Sam Presti (OKC) - got iHart & Caruso, possible cumulative achievement edge

Pelinka, Dunleavy & Presti remain strong candidates for me. Not sure if the GMs of the other remain teams impressed me that much in the past 12 months, though the fact that both KAT & Randle's teams are still going could end up really as a feather in whoever seems like they got the upper hand.

[iggymcfrack]

I still feel like POY is open between SGA and Jokic depending on how the rest of the playoffs go.

- If SGA plays well the rest of the way and the Thunder win the title, he's definitely POY.
- If SGA plays poorly the rest of the way and the Thunder blow it, I'm definitely giving it to Jokic.

The edge cases are where he plays well in a loss or poorly in a championship. SGA does have a slight lead, but I don't think he gets an automatic free pass the rest of the way just because he got by Jokic. The difference in supporting cast play was massive and it's not really Joker's fault he's not advancing. If SGA doesn't maintain his current level of play, I'm very open to dropping him. With that said, I fully expect him to play well and the Thunder to not really get challenged the rest of the way.

[iggymcfrack]

Replying to my post from after Round 1 with new Round 2 thoughts in magenta.

6MOY voting:

1. Pritchard (BOS)
2. Beasley (DET)
3. Jerome (CLE)

Followed by: Hunter, Naz, NAW, Westbrook, Caruso

Pritchard & Jerome are to me classic strong candidates.

I struggle in taking seriously 6th Men from middling teams like Beasley. I can acknowledge the possibility that such a player might actually be the most effective 6th man in the league, but it just seems to me that if a player really is that good, he should be starting for that team.

Hunter had a weird season, but if he ends up seeming the better guy on a great Cavs playoff run relative to Jerome, I could see it.

Naz' lack of hype for this award this year is telling. He won it last year, remained eligible and got better, yet it seems like people were content to think "Ah, he already got his"...but that's weird! Historically there hasn't been a great reluctance to have back-to-back winners in this award, but this year it feels like that's effectively what happened outcome-wise. (The fact that fellow Wolf NAW is on this list further showcases that there wasn't passionate support for Naz.)

Let's note Caruso's mention is just a single 3rd place vote, but I think it's at least chewing on who OKC's 6th man candidate should be, and how highly we should view Caruso given his minutes being limited even relative to 6MOY competition.

So, Caruso now is now acting as a clear cut 6th man level for the Thunder. Seriously thinking about him, though Pritchard had a hell of a year.

Beyond them, all the guys who got official votes are gone except for the Timberwolves duo (Naz & NAW). As mentioned, I think Naz is a strong candidate.

Looking at the other teams, seems like Toppin for the Pacers and McBride for the Knicks are worth considering but aren't super-compelling.

Excellent point on Caruso. It seems like the Thunder were largely letting their young guys get experience through the year while keeping their older injury prone guy healthy and the minutes weren't really reflective of how they saw him. I don't think you can really blame him for a strategy thing like that when he was playing so well through the regular season. During the regular season, Caruso would have been tied for 19th in BPM if he'd qualified along with J-Will and Dame, slightly ahead of Cade. In the postseason, that's up to 6th trailing only Giannis, Jokic, SGA, LeBron, and Tatum.

His on/off was +2.9 in the regular season and is now up to +12.1 in the playoffs, good for second on the team behind Cason Wallace. If it were another player, you might be worried about small sample size in the limited minutes, but we all know how good Caruso is. He's been a monster for a solid 6 years now. Honestly, I have a hard time seeing him get caught for 6MOY unless he has an injury or something. Pritchard was excellent, but Caruso's been on another level in the playoffs. He's basically been the 2nd best player on the best on the team in the league once the games started mattering.

[iggymcfrack]

I would like to officially announce that I’m moving up Haliburton to #4 after tonight

[EmpireFalls]

I still feel like POY is open between SGA and Jokic depending on how the rest of the playoffs go.

- If SGA plays well the rest of the way and the Thunder win the title, he's definitely POY.
- If SGA plays poorly the rest of the way and the Thunder blow it, I'm definitely giving it to Jokic.

The edge cases are where he plays well in a loss or poorly in a championship. SGA does have a slight lead, but I don't think he gets an automatic free pass the rest of the way just because he got by Jokic. The difference in supporting cast play was massive and it's not really Joker's fault he's not advancing. If SGA doesn't maintain his current level of play, I'm very open to dropping him. With that said, I fully expect him to play well and the Thunder to not really get challenged the rest of the way.

The way SGA is playing right now seems like he’s fully exorcised those zone demons he kept seeing earlier this postseason. Composed, early, on-balanced attacks. No flummoxed poor decisions. The reads are becoming more second nature, and he’s leaning into a bit of a post game too. He’d have to turn into a pumpkin out of nowhere for them to lose imo.

[iggymcfrack]

I still feel like POY is open between SGA and Jokic depending on how the rest of the playoffs go.

- If SGA plays well the rest of the way and the Thunder win the title, he's definitely POY.
- If SGA plays poorly the rest of the way and the Thunder blow it, I'm definitely giving it to Jokic.

The edge cases are where he plays well in a loss or poorly in a championship. SGA does have a slight lead, but I don't think he gets an automatic free pass the rest of the way just because he got by Jokic. The difference in supporting cast play was massive and it's not really Joker's fault he's not advancing. If SGA doesn't maintain his current level of play, I'm very open to dropping him. With that said, I fully expect him to play well and the Thunder to not really get challenged the rest of the way.

The way SGA is playing right now seems like he’s fully exorcised those zone demons he kept seeing earlier this postseason. Composed, early, on-balanced attacks. No flummoxed poor decisions. The reads are becoming more second nature, and he’s leaning into a bit of a post game too. He’d have to turn into a pumpkin out of nowhere for them to lose imo.

Oh yeah, for sure. I thought getting through that tough series with the Nuggets would give the Thunder confidence and it certainly seems like they’re playing much better ball now. Realistically, an SGA injury is probably the only thing that keeps them from winning the title or keeps SGA from winning POY at this point.

[iggymcfrack]

Really starting to go back and forth on Giannis and Haliburton for 3rd place for POY. The thing is if you look at the numbers, Giannis had a higher average game score in the playoffs than Hali's best game until tonight, but it feels like Hali is massively more impactful and he certainly looked like he was providing more lift in the head-to-head series where the Pacers won 4-1. I feel like the right move is to leave Giannis #3 for now. If Hali's really that good, he should be able to show the same kind of value against the elite defense of the Thunder that he's currently showing against the Knicks. If he can do that, I think he deserves the #3 spot.