Jalen Brunson vs Derrick Rose

[RCM88x]

I'd say Rose but "easily" is a massive over exaggeration. If there's any difference it's on the defensive side for me. Hard to really isolate Rose's peak because it was so short and he played on a loaded defensive team, but I think he still is ahead of Brunson there by a good margin. Both players have pros/cons on O that put them around the same level for me.

Brunson is probably an easier player to build around despite the defensive concerns because Rose was such a poor shooter for his position even for the time. Don't think either could/can have been #1s on title winning teams in the majority of NBA seasons though.

[tsherkin]

I'd say Rose but "easily" is a massive over exaggeration. If there's any difference it's on the defensive side for me. Hard to really isolate Rose's peak because it was so short and he played on a loaded defensive team, but I think he still is ahead of Brunson there by a good margin. Both players have pros/cons on O that put them around the same level for me.

Brunson is probably an easier player to build around despite the defensive concerns because Rose was such a poor shooter for his position even for the time. Don't think either could/can have been #1s on title winning teams in the majority of NBA seasons though.

Rose is definitely one of those guys for whom raw volume and aesthetic of game overrate him considerably, particularly in context of winning on a supremely high-end defensive squad.

[Clyde Frazier]

Derrick Rose easily.

Jalen Brunson as a no. 1 option for a team with championship aspirations is a pure waste of time. He doesn't have the physical tool needed to be a true no. 1. He generally struggles to beat his man off the dribble in the Playoffs against more tactical defenders, he struggles finishing in traffic in the Playoffs. He has limited court vision for a Point Guard, likely due to his size. Far too much of his game is reliant on BS Foul Grifting(inorganic non-basketball movements).

Derrick Rose has All-Time level explosiveness and down-hill speed, which given a more advantageous roster construction Offensively Rose would be very difficult to handle in a Playoff setting. Would far rather have Rose as a no. 1 for any team attempting contend for championships.

You're a bulls fan so you're gonna pick rose. Ok, obviously not worth arguing the comparison.

That said, your knocks on Brunson simply aren't accurate. Beating guys off the dribble isn't part of his game unless he has a big on him. There's a reason he routinely posts up bigger defenders using his elite footwork to his advantage. He uses that footwork to create space, not blow by his defenders. He also lives around the elbows where he's most efficient. He isn't forcing shots at the rim come playoff time or something.

And yes, he's very good at getting to line which has been a resilient tactic in the playoffs. Many players get to the line less in the playoffs as the refs tighten their whistle. Waxing poetic about "ethical basketball" is meaningless unless we're talking about dirty players.

He also continues to be a proven playoff performer going on several years now. In the 2023 playoffs against the heat who went to the finals, the Knicks were 2 minutes away from forcing a game 7. Brunson put up 31 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, .8 SPG on 63.2% TS. Before breaking his hand in game 7 against the pacers last season, he put up 31.8 PPG, 2.7 RPG, 5.7 APG, 1 SPG on 55.9% TS in the series. He's had plenty of clutch moments beyond that.

[tsherkin]

Derrick Rose easily.

Jalen Brunson as a no. 1 option for a team with championship aspirations is a pure waste of time. He doesn't have the physical tool needed to be a true no. 1. He generally struggles to beat his man off the dribble in the Playoffs against more tactical defenders, he struggles finishing in traffic in the Playoffs. He has limited court vision for a Point Guard, likely due to his size. Far too much of his game is reliant on BS Foul Grifting(inorganic non-basketball movements).

Derrick Rose has All-Time level explosiveness and down-hill speed, which given a more advantageous roster construction Offensively Rose would be very difficult to handle in a Playoff setting. Would far rather have Rose as a no. 1 for any team attempting contend for championships.

You're a bulls fan so you're gonna pick rose. Ok, obviously not worth arguing the comparison.

That said, your knocks on Brunson simply aren't accurate. Beating guys off the dribble isn't part of his game unless he has a big on him. There's a reason he routinely posts up bigger defenders using his elite footwork to his advantage. He uses that footwork to create space, not blow by his defenders. He also lives around the elbows where he's most efficient. He isn't forcing shots at the rim come playoff time or something.

And yes, he's very good at getting to line which has been a resilient tactic in the playoffs. Many players get to the line less in the playoffs as the refs tighten their whistle. Waxing poetic about "ethical basketball" is meaningless unless we're talking about dirty players.

He also continues to be a proven playoff performer going on several years now. In the 2023 playoffs against the heat who went to the finals, the Knicks were 2 minutes away from forcing a game 7. Brunson put up 31 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, .8 SPG on 63.2% TS. Before breaking his hand in game 7 against the pacers last season, he put up 31.8 PPG, 2.7 RPG, 5.7 APG, 1 SPG on 55.9% TS in the series. He's had plenty of clutch moments beyond that.

Mmm. Also worth noting is that this idea of him foul grifting is weird. He's a sub .380 FTr guy in the RS, and sub-.360 in the playoffs. If he's grifting, he's horrible at it. More likely, he's just making plays and trying to get some calls here and there like everyone else, and like every coach ever teaches and preaches.

[FrodoBaggins]

Morant is the best modern Rose comp. It's close enough that it's negligible, IMO. Ja, Derrick, and Jalen all have similar OBPM peaks. Brunson has the TS+ and TS Add advantage. Clearly a better scorer. Playmaking is similar, even if it's stylistically different. I'd give Rose a slight edge here. Defense for Rose, too.

2010-11 and 2011-12 Rose: +6.2 OBPM, +0.4 DBPM, +6.6 BPM
2023-24 and 2024-25 Brunson: +5.5 OBPM, -0.8 DBPM, +4.7 BPM

CHI's subpar spacing and slow-paced, half-court, defensive focus clearly blunted Derrick's scoring efficiency and efficacy. But that OBPM accurately reflects his offensive value, in my opinion. Put him on a team like 2009-10 PHX, and his TS%, TS+, TS Add, PPG, and APG surely get a boost. Doesn't change how good he is, though. Just makes the #s look different.

Rose with 2010-11 and 2011-12 CHI was like a more PG/playmaking-focused version of Iverson with 2000-01 PHI, except for an even better and deeper supporting cast. A defense and rebounding team that relies on a guard to carry the offense to passable levels. Rose with a protomodern four-out/five-out offense like 2009-10 PHX wouldn't produce ORtg heights like Nash, but it'd be decent. Something in the +4 to +6 rORtg range. Like 2013 and 2014 MIA playing that drive-and-kick style.

[Clyde Frazier]

Derrick Rose easily.

Jalen Brunson as a no. 1 option for a team with championship aspirations is a pure waste of time. He doesn't have the physical tool needed to be a true no. 1. He generally struggles to beat his man off the dribble in the Playoffs against more tactical defenders, he struggles finishing in traffic in the Playoffs. He has limited court vision for a Point Guard, likely due to his size. Far too much of his game is reliant on BS Foul Grifting(inorganic non-basketball movements).

Derrick Rose has All-Time level explosiveness and down-hill speed, which given a more advantageous roster construction Offensively Rose would be very difficult to handle in a Playoff setting. Would far rather have Rose as a no. 1 for any team attempting contend for championships.

You're a bulls fan so you're gonna pick rose. Ok, obviously not worth arguing the comparison.

That said, your knocks on Brunson simply aren't accurate. Beating guys off the dribble isn't part of his game unless he has a big on him. There's a reason he routinely posts up bigger defenders using his elite footwork to his advantage. He uses that footwork to create space, not blow by his defenders. He also lives around the elbows where he's most efficient. He isn't forcing shots at the rim come playoff time or something.

And yes, he's very good at getting to line which has been a resilient tactic in the playoffs. Many players get to the line less in the playoffs as the refs tighten their whistle. Waxing poetic about "ethical basketball" is meaningless unless we're talking about dirty players.

He also continues to be a proven playoff performer going on several years now. In the 2023 playoffs against the heat who went to the finals, the Knicks were 2 minutes away from forcing a game 7. Brunson put up 31 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, .8 SPG on 63.2% TS. Before breaking his hand in game 7 against the pacers last season, he put up 31.8 PPG, 2.7 RPG, 5.7 APG, 1 SPG on 55.9% TS in the series. He's had plenty of clutch moments beyond that.

Mmm. Also worth noting is that this idea of him foul grifting is weird. He's a sub .380 FTr guy in the RS, and sub-.360 in the playoffs. If he's grifting, he's horrible at it. More likely, he's just making plays and trying to get some calls here and there like everyone else, and like every coach ever teaches and preaches.

Right, yet the negative sentiment these days seems to be he's the second coming of harden.

[tsherkin]

Right, yet the negative sentiment these days seems to be he's the second coming of harden.

Which is ultra odd to me.

He guard posts more than anyone I can remember in recent memory. He faces up and slashes. He shoots threes. He's a little guy, so he struggles getting all the way to the rim, and finishing when he's there. But he's overall a very good player and he really isn't just a foul merchant at all. He's quite fun to watch.

[Woodsanity]

Derrick Rose easily.

Jalen Brunson as a no. 1 option for a team with championship aspirations is a pure waste of time. He doesn't have the physical tool needed to be a true no. 1. He generally struggles to beat his man off the dribble in the Playoffs against more tactical defenders, he struggles finishing in traffic in the Playoffs. He has limited court vision for a Point Guard, likely due to his size. Far too much of his game is reliant on BS Foul Grifting(inorganic non-basketball movements).

Derrick Rose has All-Time level explosiveness and down-hill speed, which given a more advantageous roster construction Offensively Rose would be very difficult to handle in a Playoff setting. Would far rather have Rose as a no. 1 for any team attempting contend for championships.

Is this why Rose has westbrick levels of efficiency in a playoff setting? How did his explosiveness help him then when he is a below 50 TS% player in the playoffs?

Rose was a one trick pony who relied solely on his athleticism. No jump shot and paltry bball iq. Thats why he became instantly irrelevant the moment he loss his athleticism.

Brunson easily. Rose gets all the credit for a top 1 defensive team when he himself was average at best defensively and scored at westbrick level's of efficiency in the playoffs when it mattered.

[DorianRo]

Rose's 3 point shot was coming along nicely. Dude was becoming a nasty shooter. But of course it doesn't matter when you blow your knees out unfortunately. Bulls were no doubt legit title contenders before the Rose injury in the first round of the playoffs. Knicks aren't and never will be a legit title contender at least with this crew. If those bulls were playing today they would win titles. But they had to go up against the Miami SuperCheatTeam

[tsherkin]

If those bulls were playing today they would win titles.

No, no they wouldn't at all.

They'd be a very good defensive team. But they weren't even a noteworthy offense in their own time. The 2011 Bulls were ranked 11th in the league on offense in a league with an average TS% of 54.1% and an average team ORTG of 107.1 (they posted 108.3). They had little breadth of scoring, they shot 36.1% from 3 (+0.1% over league average today) on 17.3 3PA/g, they were below average at protecting the ball, about average in team eFG% even at the time, they were the 5th-worst FT shooting team in the league.

Like, they clearly didn't have the stuff on O to get it done then, let alone now.

Boozer was a solid scoring PF. Noah was an excellent defender and a pretty good passing big even though he had no range. Luol Deng was a good defender and a mediocre scorer at the time. He'd be a trash scorer in today's environment. Rose was a +0.9% rTS guy in THAT league, was a 33.2% 3pt shooter and had a weak short game. Plus, he was tiny, so while he was in the paint a fair bit, he was an unremarkable finisher there.

Like, no. They were not a real title contender at all. Then or now.

[DorianRo]

If those bulls were playing today they would win titles.

No, no they wouldn't at all.

They'd be a very good defensive team. But they weren't even a noteworthy offense in their own time. The 2011 Bulls were ranked 11th in the league on offense in a league with an average TS% of 54.1% and an average team ORTG of 107.1 (they posted 108.3). They had little breadth of scoring, they shot 36.1% from 3 (+0.1% over league average today) on 17.3 3PA/g, they were below average at protecting the ball, about average in team eFG% even at the time, they were the 5th-worst FT shooting team in the league.

Like, they clearly didn't have the stuff on O to get it done then, let alone now.

Boozer was a solid scoring PF. Noah was an excellent defender and a pretty good passing big even though he had no range. Luol Deng was a good defender and a mediocre scorer at the time. He'd be a trash scorer in today's environment. Rose was a +0.9% rTS guy in THAT league, was a 33.2% 3pt shooter and had a weak short game. Plus, he was tiny, so while he was in the paint a fair bit, he was an unremarkable finisher there.

Like, no. They were not a real title contender at all. Then or now.

The only reason they weren't getting to the finals is because they ran into a cheating Superteam stacked with HOF'ers and great 3 point shooters who are better than any team playing today.. And Butler wasn't even in his prime yet.. Rose was just beginning his prime when the knee injuries destroyed his career. There would be no superteam cHeat around today stopping them. Thunder/Celtics/Nuggers/Clippers/Cavs etc were nowehre near as good as this cHeat were

[EmpireFalls]

If those bulls were playing today they would win titles.

. Rose was a +0.9% rTS guy in THAT league, was a 33.2% 3pt shooter and had a weak short game. Plus, he was tiny, so while he was in the paint a fair bit, he was an unremarkable finisher there.

This is really unfair to Rose. He’d be absolutely impossible to contain with the spacing of today’s teams and I also find the assertion that he was an unremarkable finisher to be laughable on the same basis, he was basically going into 2-3 guys. He had great body control.

Your overall point on the Bulls is true (basically any pre-2017 team simply doesn’t have the shooting to play a 2020s game) but I think Rose would shine in the spread PnR era.

[DorianRo]

Are we forgetting Butler didn't even hit his prime yet and Rose just began his. . Bulls would have PLENTY of offense between Boozer/Butler/Rose

[tsherkin]

The only reason they weren't getting to the finals is because they ran into a cheating Superteam stacked with HOF'ers and great 3 point shooters who are better than any team playing today..

So, step one, that's a lot of whining about their competition. They'd have faced the Mavs in the Finals and likely lost anyway. In today's league, they'd get ripped apart because they were so weak on offense. Let's say they DID somehow make it through to the Finals, somehow defeating the Celtics or the Cavs or the Knicks or whomever. They'd get ripped apart by Denver, let alone OKC. Or Old Golden State. I don't think you appreciate how poorly disposed they were to running quality offense in today's environment.

This is really unfair to Rose. He’d be absolutely impossible to contain with the spacing of today’s teams and I also find the assertion that he was an unremarkable finisher to be laughable on the same basis, he was basically going into 2-3 guys. He had great body control.

Yeah, Rose was very athletic. And he'd be a decent POA scorer in today's league. But he wouldn't be sufficient to take that team over the top. He was a little dude who had a weak short game and a solid jumper inside the arc. He'd finish better at the rim in today's environment if the team had any kind of spacing, sure, but league average efficiency is also higher for precisely that reason. Gaining separation wouldn't happen just because he's athletic. Witness Ja Morant. Rose was a better mid-range shooter than Ja, but a bunch of 43% middies wouldn't be doing Rose any favors trying to gain separation from a league average of 57% TS or higher.

He was hella fast in the open court, had a nasty first step and all that, and usage of screens would certainly help him. But he wouldn't be a top-5 scorer in the league. The only little guys who smash it in the league right now have far better jumpers.

The tempo would help if he got away from a Thibs-type coach, as would the spacing, but now we're talking about a 3, 4% boost to his efficiency... which takes him to around league average, maybe +1%, which is about where he was at the time. Rose was always more about rep and aesthetic than he was about his actual impact. That team needed An Engine (TM), because it thrived on D and rebounding, with which he had little to do relative to what the other guys were managing around him. It was very, very similar to the 01 Sixers, but with better offensive teammates.

[DorianRo]

Rose was a becoming a great 3 point shooter prior to his first knee injury, Butler hadn't even hit his prime yet and he became a great scorer especially on the post season. The narrative that the bulls weren't and wouldn't be good enough on offense is wrong. They weren't elite offensively yet but they were well on their way to being with Rose/Butler coming into their own as a great 1-2 punch combo. And their Defense was A plus that offsets it anyways. How those Celtics doing with their unreal offense? LOL . 3 point chucking is high risk in the playoffs unless your those 2010' Warriors


Bulls would be fine today and get to the finals at least where they would probably lose to the Thunder (Who aren't as good as the Heat with Lebron/Wade/Allen/Bosh at least playoff wise. Maybe more consistent but not as good once playoffs hit because they don't have muliple HOF talent like the Heat). Once Rose/Butler hit their peaks though, they would snatch a couple of titles today.

[tsherkin]

Rose was a becoming a great 3 point shooter prior to his first knee injury,

No, he wasn't. He had a 33% 3P season in 2011, and shot 31% the year after. He had 3 months under 30% in 2011. Literally nothing about his shooting in 2011 or 2012 suggested that he was "becoming a great 3 point shooter."

How those Celtics doing with their unreal offense? LOL .

2 Finals appearances, 3 other ECF appearances and a title? They're doing fine. They're overdoing it this year, to be sure, but that's not the tactic you wanted to take.

Bulls would be fine today and get to the finals at least

0% chance with that roster without major injuries all through the East.

[Jaivl]

Rose was a becoming a great 3 point shooter prior to his first knee injury

Btw, they were stomped by the 2011 Heat, with zero depth and bodybuilder LeBron, not their much better 2012 version.