Bucks News, Transactions and Trade Ideas - 2025 Off-season

[tedbrogen]

Right. No one is saying trade him a bunch of mid round picks. I'm on record saying the Rockets offer has to START with Thompson, and that's far from enough. The Phoenix picks, possibly Tari or Smith Jr.

No one willing to trade Giannis is giving him away.

Yep. The floor is either Flagg or Amen. With Flagg, the rest of the package isn’t of that much of a concern to me. Anything else is a bonus. With Amen, it’s needs a lot of sweetener.

The funny thing is that is trade with the Rockets for say Amen, FVV, Smith Jr, other salary, and the Phoenix picks along with Rollins, AJG, KPJ, Bobby, and Sims probably gets you to the play-in next season. So first round ceiling, which is the exact ceiling of next year’s team with Giannis.

It also puts you in a position to not care that you are paying Dame and Kuz for zero production next season. They instead become $80M+ in expirings the next offseason.

This is a great illustration of the disconnect we have on this issue. You're implying here that Amen, FVV, and Jabari Smith are a rough on-court equivalent to Giannis next season. I don't think that's even close to true. But it helps me to understand where you're coming from.

The part of the equation that I’m taking into account that I don’t think others are is that Doc is going to be the coach no matter how much we don’t want him to be. He’s is excellent at lowering the ceiling of teams with superstars. It’s his defining trait as a coach. Most of us agree there is not an easy path to have a better supporting cast around Giannis next season. So your ceiling is essentially first round exit with Giannis as a top three player.

While obviously anyone included in a Giannis trade they won’t come close to replicating his production, it helps you in two ways. First Doc does seem to raise the floor of teams without superstars for whatever reason. Second it was quite evident in the Pacers series the Bucks only had maybe six rotation worthy players. Getting multiple rotation players allows you to maybe have a deeper team, albeit with far less top end talent. But if the head coach can’t take advantage of top end talent, it’s not as big a difference as you’d assume normally.

Now I think the team with Giannis easily wins more regular season games and drags you to the five or six seed on sheer will, but then you lose in round one again.
I admitted the non-Giannis version is only a playin team so fewer RS wins but really that’s only needing to win one or two games to get into the first round and replicate the same outcome while building for the future.

I see zero realistic path to even raise the ceiling of a Giannis led team to the second round next season since Doc will definitely be the coach. The calculus changes if Doc gets the boot but nothing indicates that is happening besides people wishcasting.

[fansinceforever]

So the Bucks can't rebuild with draft picks but we trust Horst to maximize Giannis' last two years with no cap, almost no assets and very little talent currently on the roster?

And we're keeping Giannis around for the vibes?

Oh, and Giannis will not age at all in the next two seasons where we subject him to some of the most meaningless basketball of his career.

I legitimately don't understand why more people here don't consider that point extremely sad. The last couple seasons were painful to watch, and it's only going to get worse. For all the love you claim to have for Giannis, you want him to waste the remaining prime of his career playing absolutely meaningless basketball for a loser.

This team was painful to watch because of its coach, not because of its players.

Atkinson would have this team humming, and we'd be trouncing Indiana by now.

So of course, the solution to that is to throw the entire family out with the bathwater.

Come on, man... No, we wouldnt. Giannis with his core of Green, GTJ, Bobby and KPJ would blow past a team that may be on their way to a second ECF in as many years? Doc sucks but we're just not that right now.

Oh, and that core is best case scenario this off-season! Most likely we lose two or three of those guys.

[Bernman]

Oh, and that core is best case scenario this off-season! Most likely we lose two or three of those guys.

That's hyperbolic. Green's under contract. We can go over the cap to re-sign Bobby. So it just matters how motivated we are. Then we have 1 MLE, possibly a 2nd for the DPE. Neither Trent nor KPJ will get that much individually. Plus we have other exceptions like the BAE at 5+.

The 1 strength of Horst is maneuvering in FA. So I'm interested if he can sell Naz Reid on the MLE, or LeVert on the vet min, etc. Many didn't think Trent was realistic on the vet min, or Brolo, Bobby, etc.; on their deals prior. Even if we do these things though I don't think we're real contenders.

[raferfenix]

It's over. We're now in the late-stage era of the KG Wolves. An MVP caliber 30 year old doomed to a non-free agency destination of a organization without any assets. No one is arguing that it's going to be an easy rebuild with guaranteed success. It's just that it's the only option with at least some hope.

Bucks winning a ring makes it more plausible Giannis wouldn't demand a trade.

His legacy is secured.

That said late-stage KG in Minnesota trade is very interesting to consider...also hilarious:

It was 10 years ago on Monday, the Minnesota Timberwolves traded franchise player Kevin Garnett to the Boston Celtics.

The Minnesota Timberwolves received Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Sebastian Telfair, Theo Ratliff and two first picks (became Jonny Flynn and Wayne Ellington) in exchange for Kevin Garnett.

https://dunkingwithwolves.com/2017/08/02/10-years-later-looking-back-kevin-garnett-trade/

The clincher, though, was Garnett's willingness to back off his well-chronicled refusal to play in Boston. Garnett's unwillingness to make a long-term commitment to the Celtics abruptly took this deal off the table in June, but McHale and his Boston counterpart, ex-teammate Danny Ainge, managed to resuscitate the trade and quickly move it to the brink of completion.

Garnett effectively blocked the Celtics' first attempt at trading for him by making it clear, through agent Andy Miller, that he would opt out of the final year of his contract (worth $23 million) and leave the Celtics via free agency in the summer of 2008. Had the original trade gone through, Boston potentially would have been parting with blossoming Jefferson for a one-year Garnett rental.

But Garnett now is said to be amenable to the move, after the fiercely loyal 31-year-old learned how far along the Wolves had been in negotiations with Boston in June and with the Celtics responding to the breakdown of its initial pursuit by trading the fifth overall pick in the draft to Seattle for All-Star shooting guard Ray Allen.

To get Garnett now would be an even bigger coup for the Celtics, given that they have added Allen and they no longer can include the No. 5 pick. McHale has a long-standing fondness for Jefferson, and sources indicate he has been angling for some time to retrieve the first-round pick Minnesota sent to Boston in the Szczerbiak deal. But Minnesota also badly wanted that No. 5 pick, which ended up going to Seattle in the Allen trade, enabling the SuperSonics to draft Jeff Green.

Garnett has said for years that he does not want to leave his beloved "Sota," as he calls it, consistently refusing to push for a trade even with the Wolves missing the playoffs each of the past three seasons. But Boston's cause might have been helped by the increasing possibility that Garnett's only options are becoming a Celtic or returning to Minnesota after being shopped so vigorously.

Sources nonetheless insist that McHale has had the Celtics at the top of his list from the start, mainly because of his fondness for Jefferson and Minnesota's natural desire to move Garnett out of its conference. But some teams believe McHale's comfort in negotiating with Ainge, and corresponding reluctance to deal with other teams, was another key factor. The former Celtics colleagues remain close and frequently watched games together during the recent NBA Summer League in Las Vegas.

The Wolves made the determination near the end of the playoffs that -- for the first time -- they would seriously entertain the prospect of trading Garnett according to team sources, with Garnett being informed of that change in philosophy directly by owner Glen Taylor.

Taylor announced in mid-July that the organization no longer was looking to move the NBA's 2004 MVP, telling the St. Paul Pioneer Press that Garnett's "preference was that we not trade him." Yet just days earlier, one rival executive insisted to ESPN.com that he knew "for a fact" that Minnesota remained intent on trading Garnett before the 2007-08 season starts.

Garnett rejected the initial move to Boston even though it would have put him in the easier-to-conquer East and even though he is friendly with Pierce. But he was undeniably stung by the near trade, sources said, which only increased his growing frustration with McHale and Taylor and left him bracing for a trade ever since.

https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2954127

[ReasonablySober]

I'd forgotten that the Flynn pick was part of the deal. Imagine if the Wolves had done what everyone assumed and took Curry.

[bucksfansince88]

Do we got get Fultz this off season for another big guard that may benefit from a change of scenery?

[bucksfansince88]

https://youtu.be/M1q2Z5LD-rU?si=QnkEcnfiKTidzlSS

Do it Horst

[kanyon]

Congrats to Horst on his extension after hiring the Coach of the Year.

[th87]

But your existence in this thread demonstrates you do care. I say (and I **** hate this cliche but it's true) lean into that. Care. Frankly, apathy is rampant in culture right now and its cousin isolation is killing us. Do the Trainspotting "Choose Life" thing.

Dare. To. Care.

tyvm for coming to my Ted talk.

I love it. And aren't we supposed to enjoy the present, rather than constantly looking toward the future, especially if the present is amazing (in this area, anyway)?

I wouldn’t define the last two year’s of watching the Bucks as “amazing”.

You'll miss these days once we're back in Kohl territory.

[th87]

Right. No one is saying trade him a bunch of mid round picks. I'm on record saying the Rockets offer has to START with Thompson, and that's far from enough. The Phoenix picks, possibly Tari or Smith Jr.

No one willing to trade Giannis is giving him away.

Yep. The floor is either Flagg or Amen. With Flagg, the rest of the package isn’t of that much of a concern to me. Anything else is a bonus. With Amen, it’s needs a lot of sweetener.

The funny thing is that is trade with the Rockets for say Amen, FVV, Smith Jr, other salary, and the Phoenix picks along with Rollins, AJG, KPJ, Bobby, and Sims probably gets you to the play-in next season. So first round ceiling, which is the exact ceiling of next year’s team with Giannis.

It also puts you in a position to not care that you are paying Dame and Kuz for zero production next season. They instead become $80M+ in expirings the next offseason.

I think you should get a player/prospect/pick(s) of quality accompanying Flagg because Giannis is the proven guy who's ready now. The selling point to us has to be we can actually get a potential star who gets a supporting cast to boot.

Though in so far as that's concerned, what moving on to Flagg would empower you to do is then take on bad contracts for assets/picks. You can't do that if you're in win now mode w/ Giannis, or maybe even Amen. Flagg is our ideal building block, over Giannis, & especially Amen.

If Flagg is this can't-miss better Kawhi, then why would the lottery winner trade a decade of control + additional assets for a player mainly reliant on athleticism, who has a spotty jumper, is weak on FTs, and turns 31 next season?

If Flagg doesn't match Brooklyn's timeline, then they are better off selling whatever they have to reset the timeline.

The best we'll get is like 5 mid-round 1sts and maybe a good-not-great player. Hard pass.

[paulpressey25]

I wouldn’t define the last two year’s of watching the Bucks as “amazing”.

As I said after Bud was run out of town, the odds of getting a better coach were statistically very unlikely.

Of course we could have hired Kenny “Mr. adjustments” Atkinson. He’d know how to not collapse against the Pacers. Oh wait.

[th87]

the argument not to trade giannis because whats the point of a young team with a 2nd round ceiling is literally the craziest motive for not trading him i could ever imagine.

isnt a young team with a 2nd round ceiling like the perfect running start to the next chapter?

In 2050, no one will remember or care whether the 2031 Bucks went 47-35 and got bounced by Boston in 5, or that they went 40-42 and got bounced by Boston in 4 a round earlier.

What they will remember is Giannis valiantly carrying the team for as long as he could and maybe breaking through when we hired a good coach.

i mean....we havent even been competitive in the first round for 3 years and recently have had those types of records anyway? nobody cares NOW? were a very embarrassing franchise right now and Giannis, like it or not, is kinda a big part of that and not all in a good way with how this has played out?

id also suggest like im not waiting until 2031. i think if we pulled off the right couple deals we could be better a whole lot sooner than 2031.

i guess i could see it both ways. im sooooo 50/50. If Giannis commits in blood than he stays. If he doesnt or I sense any waffling whatsoever then Im listening big time out there

2023 - Giannis thpinal
2024 - Giannis and Dame injured; dumb coach
2025 - Dame injured; dumb coach

The logical solution to this definitely isn't selling the most difficult thing to obtain.

[Thunder Muscle]

I love it. And aren't we supposed to enjoy the present, rather than constantly looking toward the future, especially if the present is amazing (in this area, anyway)?

I wouldn’t define the last two year’s of watching the Bucks as “amazing”.

You'll miss these days once we're back in Kohl territory.

I do agree that we have fully entered that spoiled territory. I would’ve busted a nut for back to back 48-49 win seasons at any point during that 2002-2018 timeframe with competitive playoff series.

Now its deemed an epic flop, boring, and the end of the franchise. I don’t disagree but def the lens as a fan has changed alot, haha

[th87]

Yep. The floor is either Flagg or Amen. With Flagg, the rest of the package isn’t of that much of a concern to me. Anything else is a bonus. With Amen, it’s needs a lot of sweetener.

The funny thing is that is trade with the Rockets for say Amen, FVV, Smith Jr, other salary, and the Phoenix picks along with Rollins, AJG, KPJ, Bobby, and Sims probably gets you to the play-in next season. So first round ceiling, which is the exact ceiling of next year’s team with Giannis.

It also puts you in a position to not care that you are paying Dame and Kuz for zero production next season. They instead become $80M+ in expirings the next offseason.

This is a great illustration of the disconnect we have on this issue. You're implying here that Amen, FVV, and Jabari Smith are a rough on-court equivalent to Giannis next season. I don't think that's even close to true. But it helps me to understand where you're coming from.

The part of the equation that I’m taking into account that I don’t think others are is that Doc is going to be the coach no matter how much we don’t want him to be. He’s is excellent at lowering the ceiling of teams with superstars. It’s his defining trait as a coach. Most of us agree there is not an easy path to have a better supporting cast around Giannis next season. So your ceiling is essentially first round exit with Giannis as a top three player.

While obviously anyone included in a Giannis trade they won’t come close to replicating his production, it helps you in two ways. First Doc does seem to raise the floor of teams without superstars for whatever reason. Second it was quite evident in the Pacers series the Bucks only had maybe six rotation worthy players. Getting multiple rotation players allows you to maybe have a deeper team, albeit with far less top end talent. But if the head coach can’t take advantage of top end talent, it’s not as big a difference as you’d assume normally.

Now I think the team with Giannis easily wins more regular season games and drags you to the five or six seed on sheer will, but then you lose in round one again.
I admitted the non-Giannis version is only a playin team so fewer RS wins but really that’s only needing to win one or two games to get into the first round and replicate the same outcome while building for the future.

I see zero realistic path to even raise the ceiling of a Giannis led team to the second round next season since Doc will definitely be the coach. The calculus changes if Doc gets the boot but nothing indicates that is happening besides people wishcasting.

If the FO even thinks about reducing the quality of the team to optimize for the benefit of Doc f'ing Rivers, then they should be sent to prison immediately. This is how you end up trading a franchise star for a Payton rental to appease a tyrant of a coach.

I also highly doubt that the guy displaying enough basketball acumen to prefer Atkinson (and Nurse and Budenholzer) would want to keep Doc around, especially after not considering him at all in the initial post-Bud process.

Horst wanted to leave until ownership forced him to stay. Then they overruled him on a decision that ended up a catastrophe, where he was obviously correct. And then they extended him.

It seems more likely he won the power struggle than being a yes man, since he was already on his way out, and clearly has other employment options. And he isn't jeopardizing that by being the ownership's fall guy.

So if Doc isn't fired this offseason, I expect him to be gone at the end of next season at the latest. He's probably working on it now. Horst's decisions haven't always worked out, but they've never been illogical. And surely he sees how bad Doc is.

[th87]

I legitimately don't understand why more people here don't consider that point extremely sad. The last couple seasons were painful to watch, and it's only going to get worse. For all the love you claim to have for Giannis, you want him to waste the remaining prime of his career playing absolutely meaningless basketball for a loser.

This team was painful to watch because of its coach, not because of its players.

Atkinson would have this team humming, and we'd be trouncing Indiana by now.

So of course, the solution to that is to throw the entire family out with the bathwater.

Come on, man... No, we wouldnt. Giannis with his core of Green, GTJ, Bobby and KPJ would blow past a team that may be on their way to a second ECF in as many years? Doc sucks but we're just not that right now.

Oh, and that core is best case scenario this off-season! Most likely we lose two or three of those guys.

Imagine if he didn't spot the Pacers 15-20 points a game by starting Prince/Kuzma/Lopez and limited their minutes.

Imagine if that resulted in lowering Dame’s workload.

And then imagine if they actually ran actions to get Trent and Green more shots.

Stumbling into the moves obvious to any astute observer resulted in a win, and a should-be win.

And if the Pacers are now up 2-0 going home, then maybe we're not as far off as we think.

[rilamann]

I love it. And aren't we supposed to enjoy the present, rather than constantly looking toward the future, especially if the present is amazing (in this area, anyway)?

I wouldn’t define the last two year’s of watching the Bucks as “amazing”.

You'll miss these days once we're back in Kohl territory.

The end results have been disappointing the past few seasons.

But I still stop before every Bucks game and appreciate the fact we have a player as great as Giannis. I never take Giannis for granted and appreciate his greatness every time he steps on the court. I said it the other day and I will say it once again, I feel like I am in a fever dream reading posts of people thinking it is a good idea to trade Giannis.

Some of us are old enough to remember staying up late on school nights only to watch the Bucks of Todd Day and Eric Murdock lose to the 0-16 Clippers....lol. I am holding on to Giannis for as long as I can.

[fan230]

This team was painful to watch because of its coach, not because of its players.

Atkinson would have this team humming, and we'd be trouncing Indiana by now.

So of course, the solution to that is to throw the entire family out with the bathwater.

Come on, man... No, we wouldnt. Giannis with his core of Green, GTJ, Bobby and KPJ would blow past a team that may be on their way to a second ECF in as many years? Doc sucks but we're just not that right now.

Oh, and that core is best case scenario this off-season! Most likely we lose two or three of those guys.

Imagine if he didn't spot the Pacers 15-20 points a game by starting Prince/Kuzma/Lopez and limited their minutes.

Imagine if that resulted in lowering Dame’s workload.

And then imagine if they actually ran actions to get Trent and Green more shots.

Stumbling into the moves obvious to any astute observer resulted in a win, and a should-be win.

And if the Pacers are now up 2-0 going home, then maybe we're not as far off as we think.

Yes I agree we are not as far off as Some think. Letting Giannis is go would be the worst thing. It will destroy the brand equity of Bucks basketball, its fanbase, and the revenue earning capacity of the owners.

[tedbrogen]

This is a great illustration of the disconnect we have on this issue. You're implying here that Amen, FVV, and Jabari Smith are a rough on-court equivalent to Giannis next season. I don't think that's even close to true. But it helps me to understand where you're coming from.

The part of the equation that I’m taking into account that I don’t think others are is that Doc is going to be the coach no matter how much we don’t want him to be. He’s is excellent at lowering the ceiling of teams with superstars. It’s his defining trait as a coach. Most of us agree there is not an easy path to have a better supporting cast around Giannis next season. So your ceiling is essentially first round exit with Giannis as a top three player.

While obviously anyone included in a Giannis trade they won’t come close to replicating his production, it helps you in two ways. First Doc does seem to raise the floor of teams without superstars for whatever reason. Second it was quite evident in the Pacers series the Bucks only had maybe six rotation worthy players. Getting multiple rotation players allows you to maybe have a deeper team, albeit with far less top end talent. But if the head coach can’t take advantage of top end talent, it’s not as big a difference as you’d assume normally.

Now I think the team with Giannis easily wins more regular season games and drags you to the five or six seed on sheer will, but then you lose in round one again.
I admitted the non-Giannis version is only a playin team so fewer RS wins but really that’s only needing to win one or two games to get into the first round and replicate the same outcome while building for the future.

I see zero realistic path to even raise the ceiling of a Giannis led team to the second round next season since Doc will definitely be the coach. The calculus changes if Doc gets the boot but nothing indicates that is happening besides people wishcasting.

If the FO even thinks about reducing the quality of the team to optimize for the benefit of Doc f'ing Rivers, then they should be sent to prison immediately. This is how you end up trading a franchise star for a Payton rental to appease a tyrant of a coach.

I also highly doubt that the guy displaying enough basketball acumen to prefer Atkinson (and Nurse and Budenholzer) would want to keep Doc around, especially after not considering him at all in the initial post-Bud process.

Horst wanted to leave until ownership forced him to stay. Then they overruled him on a decision that ended up a catastrophe, where he was obviously correct. And then they extended him.

It seems more likely he won the power struggle than being a yes man, since he was already on his way out, and clearly has other employment options. And he isn't jeopardizing that by being the ownership's fall guy.

So if Doc isn't fired this offseason, I expect him to be gone at the end of next season at the latest. He's probably working on it now. Horst's decisions haven't always worked out, but they've never been illogical. And surely he sees how bad Doc is.

So your plan is waste another year of Giannis to wait out Doc getting canned?

[tedbrogen]

This team was painful to watch because of its coach, not because of its players.

Atkinson would have this team humming, and we'd be trouncing Indiana by now.

So of course, the solution to that is to throw the entire family out with the bathwater.

Come on, man... No, we wouldnt. Giannis with his core of Green, GTJ, Bobby and KPJ would blow past a team that may be on their way to a second ECF in as many years? Doc sucks but we're just not that right now.

Oh, and that core is best case scenario this off-season! Most likely we lose two or three of those guys.

Imagine if he didn't spot the Pacers 15-20 points a game by starting Prince/Kuzma/Lopez and limited their minutes.

Imagine if that resulted in lowering Dame’s workload.

And then imagine if they actually ran actions to get Trent and Green more shots.

Stumbling into the moves obvious to any astute observer resulted in a win, and a should-be win.

And if the Pacers are now up 2-0 going home, then maybe we're not as far off as we think.

But we are because Doc is still the coach, Horst is still the GM, and Kuz is still on the team. In fact. We are further off because Dame will be giving them absolutely nothing while taking up a max salary slot.

But if everyone wants to keep hoping that if we just wish hard enough Doc will get fired, you do you.

[th87]

The part of the equation that I’m taking into account that I don’t think others are is that Doc is going to be the coach no matter how much we don’t want him to be. He’s is excellent at lowering the ceiling of teams with superstars. It’s his defining trait as a coach. Most of us agree there is not an easy path to have a better supporting cast around Giannis next season. So your ceiling is essentially first round exit with Giannis as a top three player.

While obviously anyone included in a Giannis trade they won’t come close to replicating his production, it helps you in two ways. First Doc does seem to raise the floor of teams without superstars for whatever reason. Second it was quite evident in the Pacers series the Bucks only had maybe six rotation worthy players. Getting multiple rotation players allows you to maybe have a deeper team, albeit with far less top end talent. But if the head coach can’t take advantage of top end talent, it’s not as big a difference as you’d assume normally.

Now I think the team with Giannis easily wins more regular season games and drags you to the five or six seed on sheer will, but then you lose in round one again.
I admitted the non-Giannis version is only a playin team so fewer RS wins but really that’s only needing to win one or two games to get into the first round and replicate the same outcome while building for the future.

I see zero realistic path to even raise the ceiling of a Giannis led team to the second round next season since Doc will definitely be the coach. The calculus changes if Doc gets the boot but nothing indicates that is happening besides people wishcasting.

If the FO even thinks about reducing the quality of the team to optimize for the benefit of Doc f'ing Rivers, then they should be sent to prison immediately. This is how you end up trading a franchise star for a Payton rental to appease a tyrant of a coach.

I also highly doubt that the guy displaying enough basketball acumen to prefer Atkinson (and Nurse and Budenholzer) would want to keep Doc around, especially after not considering him at all in the initial post-Bud process.

Horst wanted to leave until ownership forced him to stay. Then they overruled him on a decision that ended up a catastrophe, where he was obviously correct. And then they extended him.

It seems more likely he won the power struggle than being a yes man, since he was already on his way out, and clearly has other employment options. And he isn't jeopardizing that by being the ownership's fall guy.

So if Doc isn't fired this offseason, I expect him to be gone at the end of next season at the latest. He's probably working on it now. Horst's decisions haven't always worked out, but they've never been illogical. And surely he sees how bad Doc is.

So your plan is waste another year of Giannis to wait out Doc getting canned?

Yes, and I'd also recommend a person wait for a broken arm to heal rather than amputating it and planning for life with a prosthetic.