What about the Center Spot?

[Skybox]

I feel like this deserves a thread of its own...offseason is here and two completely convoluted threads re: the offseason probably isn't the cleanest way to go. Mods, if I'm out of line...kill me!

Backcourt offense, scoring, shooting & playmaking is pretty universally acknowledged as offseason priority #1 (as it should be)

But I think the Center spot, from top to bottom, needs a hard look.

WCJ fought hard vs BOS and, imo, put in his best work in a long time. He's got one more year at $10.9m and then his extension kicks in...18.1m, 19.6m and then a team option year at $21m...not really terrible deal for a full-time starting Center...but I don't know if he should be that.

Goga clearly has lost the trust of Mose, based on how little playoff time he got...as a result, imo, he looked kind of lost. I think, historically, he's played way better when he gets more time (starting for an oft-injured starter) than off the bench. He's due to make $8.3m next year and then one more at $7.6m

Moe tore his ACL and will likely not be back until December, well into next season. Right now, he's up in the air with a team option of $11m for next season. ACL shouldn't be a lingering type of injury and, by all accounts, he's progressing in his rehab.

I POSTED THIS ELSEWHERE BUT WANT TO RE-START THE CONVERSATION HERE...

How bad is Moe's defense really? Is it just unsalvageable or can it be brought up, schemed for, etc enough to make him playable (assuming he returns at full strength - whenever that is, December?). We bounce around a lot of names, including Danny Wolf, for an example...but can we go in that kind of finesse center direction or do we really need more of a defensive and rebounding anchor?

The whole "find a rim-protecting, rebounding, switching defender, who can knock down 3's and finish lobs 5' above the rim" ain't happening...what are the potential compromises.

I've suggested Sabonis and "defense sucks"
Capela - "can't spread the floor"
Maluach - "not really a rebounder" based on one game - after averaging 11.2 per game while still learning the sport
Poeltl - too slow, can't switch
I mean, everyone is some kind of compromise, what is our best option to concede...to me, it's the opposite of our Guard situation (which is "Enough with the freaking lockdown guys - we need guards to also do guard things").

WCJ spreads the floor, rebounds at a high level, is big and sturdy enough to mix it up with anyone, is reliable in effort and health, and on a good team-friendly deal...no, he's not any of those except in flashes (good effort vs BOS)

what do we really need that's gettable?

For me, it's throw picks around to get Maluach. Mosely would drool over a raw piece of 7' power and instinct with that level of mobility. We've had a tremendous defense without any kind of real rim-protecting deterrent. Maybe I'm underestimating WCJ - he does do an amazing job, at times, of switching onto smaller players and staying with them briefly...I just wish he'd get 10+ rebounds per game and not really look overmatched against the really big guys...sometimes he's dunking everything, grabbing boards in traffic and just looking possessed. He's awesome in spurts when he looks like he's playing angry - maybe right after he caught an accidental (or not) elbow...when I coached my young son, who was big & skilled among the other guys at the Y, I would marvel at the difference in his performance after he took a bump or, for whatever reason, got pissed off...I would (kind of) joke that I needed to call a timeout and pinch his tricep or nipple to get him going.

Anyway, what's our Center outlook? If you think it's fine as is, skip it and just go away

[Skybox]

Just for general kickstart...it's ludicrous to have your least expensive C making $9m. Our starter is inexpensive but subpar, imo. Moe is fine as a backup, but his TO could be declined and he can be re-upped for something like $8m x 3years...I don't think that's negative or a slight to him, it's just more realistic for a guy deemed "can't be the starter".

I'm kind okay with Moe in the middle, but I'd like a better, bigger, meaner, more reliable C. For third string, I want a rookie scale guy - there are a few interesting ones - or a $3m crafty vet with no real need for regular minutes but can give them too you when needed (think Plumlee or Tristan Thompson, etc). I think Goga is too promising and highly paid for the role we have for him...it's a waste of talent and of payroll.

[VFX]

What would I like to see?

Wendell and Goga moved.
A starting level Center is acquired. (Poeltl, Turner, Kessler, Capela)
A big, or true Center, is drafted at some point.

Basically consolidating our cap % into one starting level guy, Moe off the bench, and a rookie scale third string

What would I be OK with?

Carter moved and Goga starts. Magic draft a potential third string guy.

[Bensational]

Just for general kickstart...it's ludicrous to have your least expensive C making $9m. Our starter is inexpensive but subpar, imo. Moe is fine as a backup, but his TO could be declined and he can be re-upped for something like $8m x 3years...I don't think that's negative or a slight to him, it's just more realistic for a guy deemed "can't be the starter".

I'm kind okay with Moe in the middle, but I'd like a better, bigger, meaner, more reliable C. For third string, I want a rookie scale guy - there are a few interesting ones - or a $3m crafty vet with no real need for regular minutes but can give them too you when needed (think Plumlee or Tristan Thompson, etc). I think Goga is too promising and highly paid for the role we have for him...it's a waste of talent and of payroll.

Nah, Goga ended up being a necessary luxury this season and last, stepping in to start for a couple of months whilst all our bigs went down with injury, and proving to be a premier defender in that period.

It’s a bonus because now we’ve got a proven starting quality player on an excellent value deal who is now surplus and available to trade. If anything, resigning Goga ranks as one of WePark’s best moves.

In terms of ideal C, Porzingis has shown a working championship model with Boston, comparable to the Magic’s make up. I think the Magic have to go mining in the draft for gold for that kind of player, otherwise they’ll pay a premium in trade and may compromise ability to add guard improvements.

Or as Steven Adams has shown, sometimes just being a big body who grabs rebounds can be a difference maker.

[Skybox]

Free Agent Centers that MAY be of interest...SnT, MLE (or part of it, assuming we can get there with other cost-saving moves)...
*just listing guys...some may be way out of reach. Some would start, some might not get a minute if we're healthy

Steven Adams still one of the elite offensive rebounders and best pick setters EVER...great dude too. HOU would be foolish to let him get away
Clint Capela
Marvin Bagley (maybe not a real C, but perhaps a guy that could also burn minutes at PF, on a very low deal)
Andre Drummond one of the great rebounders of all time
Mason Plumlee had some really good seasons, very solid passer
DeAndre Jordan huge and (formerly?) athletic...anything left in the tank?
Luke Kornet almost 30, probably very happy in BOS, doing his thing, collecting rings
Santi Aldama very interesting, overlooked in MEM?, shoots 3's but can he do big man stuff defensively?
Jaxson Hayes catches lobs high above the rim...I think that's all he does well
Mo Bamba no, I'm serious, obviously a deep dive, vet min...but he can shoot 3's and, when active, he's an elite shot deterrent around the rim, weak

Guys that might be available via trade that MAY be of interest...
Mitchell Robinson really good, really big defender & rebounder...just too much of a chronic injury risk for me
Porzingis also a constant injury watch, but man is he good. BOS loves him, but could be a cap casualty for a less expensive, lesser player
Robert Williams I love Time Lord, and he's been playing this year, but another full-time injury risk guy...would be a great backup somewhere else
DeAndre Ayton superstar agility in a huge body. Good offensive skills inside, not a 3pt guy, expiring $35.6m, minimal defense. Clingan on-deck in POR
Jusuf Nurkic huge vet, not a mobile defender but good offensive skillset, expiring $19.4m, will CHA draft Maluach, will Mark Willliams stay healthy?
VUUUUUUC expiring $21.5m, dude can shoot and has been an elite defensive rebounder, weak defender, but big and smart, used to be McHale-like
Jakob Poeltl MY CHOICE for a trade target...I could see TOR taking WCJ+, drafting Maluach, saving some $$$, knowing WCJ can switch to PF when need
Zach Collins expiring $18m, skilled but yet another chronically injured big
RoLo retired, why not? get him and his brother on team-friendly one year deals, to play together, Disney together. Brook is still awesome.
Daniel Gafford expiring $14.4, could be available with Lively and AD onboard in DAL, but won't be very cheap, good vertical player on both ends
Kelly Olynyk expiring $13.4, Gonzaga smart, shoots 3's and passes exceptionally well...like a bigger Ingles, not a defender, should be here already
Yves Missi good rookie season, pure raw athleticism and motor, shouldn't be available unless NOLA drafts a bigger version in Maluach
Bobby Portis $13.4 PO, if Giannis asks out, what's there for him...not really a C, but could cover 4/5 really well, does it all and is tough
Walker Kessler $4.9 expiring then RFA...BIG, elite rebounder at both ends, shot blocker, constant concern for those driving to the paint. Love it.
Dwight retired, worn out, would jump to come back and finish in ORL, could he give 10 violent mpg? It's hard to imagine he couldn't impact

That's all for me...I'm exhausted...who'd I miss? who do you like? who am I wrong about that actually sucks?

[RookieStar]

Just wanna say.. if we really wanna compete for a top spot next season, we cant trust our starting C position to a rookie....

[RookieStar]

Also... is Ainge really willing to trade Kessler?

[Skybox]

Just for general kickstart...it's ludicrous to have your least expensive C making $9m. Our starter is inexpensive but subpar, imo. Moe is fine as a backup, but his TO could be declined and he can be re-upped for something like $8m x 3years...I don't think that's negative or a slight to him, it's just more realistic for a guy deemed "can't be the starter".

I'm kind okay with Moe in the middle, but I'd like a better, bigger, meaner, more reliable C. For third string, I want a rookie scale guy - there are a few interesting ones - or a $3m crafty vet with no real need for regular minutes but can give them too you when needed (think Plumlee or Tristan Thompson, etc). I think Goga is too promising and highly paid for the role we have for him...it's a waste of talent and of payroll.

Nah, Goga ended up being a necessary luxury this season and last, stepping in to start for a couple of months whilst all our bigs went down with injury, and proving to be a premier defender in that period.

It’s a bonus because now we’ve got a proven starting quality player on an excellent value deal who is now surplus and available to trade. If anything, resigning Goga ranks as one of WePark’s best moves.

In terms of ideal C, Porzingis has shown a working championship model with Boston, comparable to the Magic’s make up. I think the Magic have to go mining in the draft for gold for that kind of player, otherwise they’ll pay a premium in trade and may compromise ability to add guard improvements.

Or as Steven Adams has shown, sometimes just being a big body who grabs rebounds can be a difference maker.

The Porzingis model is interesting...even if the original is too broken-down and expensive to seriously consider.
-I'm generally less interested in guys I think of as "finesse" Centers who can get physically bullied, but looking at the draft:
...what is Danny Wolf going to be? Tons of interesting descriptions of his game, sounds like Ingles-like in his craftiness, and he IS 7', 250 lbs
...this kid, Maxime Raynaud, from Stanford... a podcast I respect made some amazing claims about his skillset and felt he's a lottery guy
...Ryan Kalkbrenner, from Creighton, almost 7'2", lots of skills but is his defense dicey?
...Maluach - physical monster, will be gone early...I WOULD absolutely try to trade up, there are teams in that range who already have a monster
...Derik Queen, Maryland, compared to Sengun, crazy guard skills for a very big guy, but questionable defender, "only 6'10"
...Joan Beringer, France, very young but 6'10, 230...as far as I can see he's a special athlete, really raw...risky bet, imo

EDIT...left out one of my favorites, bruiser Thomas Sorber from Georgetown, throwback-type, can he switch? is he big enough to keep banging in NBA?

Could Wolf or Raynaud be plus defenders? Rim protectors? I think we need that as much as any frouffy skills

(all I'm sharing here is what I've read - I know nothing)

[Skybox]

Just wanna say.. if we really wanna compete for a top spot next season, we cant trust our starting C position to a rookie....

ABSOLUTELY NOT...but we have picks to replace (one of) our overpaid guys that we trade...the third Center could be a rookie, preferably one that could project to be the eventual starter...in the meantime, they're paid like Mason Plumlee.

[Skybox]

Also... is Ainge really willing to trade Kessler?

I honestly don't know why he would...but that seems to be the general consensus...I guess Ainge probably likes people making inquiries, never say never. He's also due an extension this summer, so Ainge might not have interest in a big payday while still at the bottom of a tank.

[Skybox]

VFX posted this in the other thread and, even though he's kind of a grouch, I think it's pretty good, so...

Poeltl to me is perfect in terms of cost, age, and skillset. I'd be OK with Turner also but is he even available?

Maluach isn't really super attainable and his instincts are not that great. A team like Toronto can select him and make Poeltl more available. The other thing is learning curve for a true Center. It's less crucial that a guy like Wolf is developing in the third spot as opposed to hoping Maluach figures it all out as a starter at 19 or whatever.

Anyway, I don't buy this argument that Orlando is in dire need of a "stretch 5". Few of those guys even exist.
No, our MAX contract level "STAR" needs to be able to stretch the floor more consistently and let Centers do Center things like protect the rim and grab rebounds efficiently. This idea to push these responsibilities onto other positions, because the more impactful guys can't, leads to overlooking common expectations for starting level players.

It's like arguing Orlando needs Channing Frye because Paolo needs to be in the paint as opposed to a better player like Tyson Chandler because your cop out expectations are on the ground floor for a guy that is supposedly leading the team.

[KillMonger]

Yeah...... I disagree with all that

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[RookieStar]

Just wanna say.. if we really wanna compete for a top spot next season, we cant trust our starting C position to a rookie....

ABSOLUTELY NOT...but we have picks to replace (one of) our overpaid guys that we trade...the third Center could be a rookie, preferably one that could project to be the eventual starter...in the meantime, they're paid like Mason Plumlee.

Ah yeah... but that would mean we would need to get rid 2 of WCJ Goga Moe JI to have a rookie 3rd C right?

[Bensational]

-I'm generally less interested in guys I think of as "finesse" Centers who can get physically bullied, but looking at the draft:
...what is Danny Wolf going to be? Tons of interesting descriptions of his game, sounds like Ingles-like in his craftiness, and he IS 7', 250 lbs

I think a competent playmaker/PnR ball-handler could get more out of a traditional big than Paolo and Franz have been, without compromising their games. They’re both perimeter competent enough and have gravity to still keep defenses honest.

Regardless, Gafford should be target #1, IMO. Affordable contract and no major compromise. Ranked #2 in PER amongst C’s, and 9th in EWA which is great for a role player on 21mpg.

KCP for Gafford + Hardy (filler). Just makes sense to me.

Danny Wolf could be a huge fail, but he also screams to me to be the sort of guy worth a gamble. If you can unlock a unique playmaking and floor spreading bench big in him and scale down his turnovers we could have a cheap alternative to Moe whilst he’s out.

[basketballRob]

I saw some Mavs fans pitching Gafford for Cole and the 25th pick.

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[VFX]

Yeah...... I disagree with all that

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Why

[FFBlitzace]

I'm not a WCJ fan. Not at all, really. But I don't deny that he has played good stretches of basketball in his career. I'm willing to consider the possibility that he's fine as our starting center, and that he will look better if we become more offensively competent as a team. I mean, that's typically a pretty simple reality for role players. They look good on good teams and bad on bad teams. We're not a bad team necessarily, but we're so bad on one side of the ball that it's nearly impossible for our role players to look good on offense.

Short version: I don't like him but I prioritize improving guard play and I'm willing to give him a chance within the framework of a more competent offensive team.

[Skybox]

Just wanna say.. if we really wanna compete for a top spot next season, we cant trust our starting C position to a rookie....

ABSOLUTELY NOT...but we have picks to replace (one of) our overpaid guys that we trade...the third Center could be a rookie, preferably one that could project to be the eventual starter...in the meantime, they're paid like Mason Plumlee.

Ah yeah... but that would mean we would need to get rid 2 of WCJ Goga Moe JI to have a rookie 3rd C right?

Isaac said that the weight gain experiment was a fail, made him feel sluggish, not himself...he's going to lose weight this summer...I think that makes him not a C...but, yes to moving WCJ or Goga (or both if we find a better starter). Another way to look at it might be to get a starter, get rid of Isaac and let WCJ back up C & PF off the bench...but yes, too much money buried on that position.

Pointing to how lucky we were to have Goga due to injuries is short-sighted...we can be mediocre and deep or contenders with a top-heavy payroll. If we have enough positional versatility to cover up holes, fine...but planning for injuries is counterintuitive to being really good. If you suffer a major injury, you're screwed. That's life on a serious team.

[Knightro]

You'll all get Wendell Carter Jr. and like it!

[basketballRob]

I like Bobby Portis as a backup.

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