RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[The4thHorseman]

Having to read through the Soccer talk basically ruins this thread.

[The High Cyde]

Having to read through the Soccer talk basically ruins this thread.

Terrible thread to merge in a basketball GOAT thread, shoulda been obvious.

[MavsDirk41]

Having to read through the Soccer talk basically ruins this thread.

Some people enjoy the discussion, you dont have to like it just ignore it. Bashing it adds nothing to this. I dont find on the threads on here interesting so i just ignore them and move on.

[AmIWrongDude]

That image is kind of devastating. Yeah, that difference is really an entire HOF careers worth.

Yeah the gap is absolutely ridiculous, kind of makes you wonder what qualifies James to be top 3 all time in all seriousness, lemanufactured media driven legacy, a better question people should be asking is who’s #2 All Time in the NBA after Michael Jordan, likely KAJ.

Messi>Ronaldo

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>james

I know that it sucks LeBron lapped Kobe a long time ago- but try to stay objective.

Also I’m sure you could make a “hall of fame career” for LeBron using his stats too. Off the top of my head he has way more All NBA selections and obviously laps him in points, assists, rebounds etc.

[DOT]

Yeah the gap is absolutely ridiculous, kind of makes you wonder what qualifies James to be top 3 all time in all seriousness, lemanufactured media driven legacy, a better question people should be asking is who’s #2 All Time in the NBA after Michael Jordan, likely KAJ.

Messi>Ronaldo

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>james

I know that it sucks LeBron lapped Kobe a long time ago- but try to stay objective.

Also I’m sure you could make a “hall of fame career” for LeBron using his stats too. Off the top of my head he has way more All NBA selections and obviously laps him in points, assists, rebounds etc.

9 more All NBA selections (3 more 1st team selections), 7 more All Stars, ~10k points, 5k rebounds, 6k assists

Really it says more about what you choose to focus on, because these graphics always leave out the areas where LeBron surpassed MJ, and the people who post them will call them fake awards or whatever

Either it's all fake media awards, or none of it is. I think we should just count all the awards, not just the ones that prove our point.

[bledredwine]

I know that it sucks LeBron lapped Kobe a long time ago- but try to stay objective.

Also I’m sure you could make a “hall of fame career” for LeBron using his stats too. Off the top of my head he has way more All NBA selections and obviously laps him in points, assists, rebounds etc.

9 more All NBA selections (3 more 1st team selections), 7 more All Stars, ~10k points, 5k rebounds, 6k assists

Really it says more about what you choose to focus on, because these graphics always leave out the areas where LeBron surpassed MJ, and the people who post them will call them fake awards or whatever

Either it's all fake media awards, or none of it is. I think we should just count all the awards, not just the ones that prove our point.

More posts about longevity. Cool!

I like to focus on how good a player was while they played and how much they dominated/won, not how long they stuck around.

[PassMeTheBall]

Lebron's longevity is a bit overrated. Yeah, he has his stats but why doesn't winning matter or why anything else isn't brought up like how he's missed 134 total season games in the past 7 seasons. He's only played in 2 more season games total over Kareem in 2 more seasons played. He also only won 1 championship in his last 9 seasons & it was in the bubble. If players like Curry, Harden & Durant still have high stats going into their 19th-20th seasons than Lebron's longevity won't mean as much anymore if others are playing that long & still have high stats. It's crazy how in this generation it seems winning doesn't matter anymore just as long as you put up high stats & play really long. It's pretty wild how he's played 22 seasons & he still hasn't come close to surpass what Jordan did no matter how much he tries even with jumping from team to team & playing with an insane amount of elite talent.

[ball_takes23]

Lebron's longevity is a bit overrated. Yeah, he has his stats but why doesn't winning matter or why anything else isn't brought up like how he's missed 134 total season games in the past 7 seasons. He's only played in 2 more season games total over Kareem in 2 more seasons played. He also only won 1 championship in his last 9 seasons & it was in the bubble. If players like Curry, Harden & Durant still have high stats going into their 19th-20th seasons than Lebron's longevity won't mean as much anymore if others are playing that long & still have high stats. It's crazy how in this generation it seems winning doesn't matter anymore just as long as you put up high stats & play really long. It's pretty wild how he's played 22 seasons & he still hasn't come close to surpass what Jordan did no matter how much he tries even with jumping from team to team & playing with an insane amount of elite talent.

He’s 40!!!!!

[PassMeTheBall]

Lebron's longevity is a bit overrated. Yeah, he has his stats but why doesn't winning matter or why anything else isn't brought up like how he's missed 134 total season games in the past 7 seasons. He's only played in 2 more season games total over Kareem in 2 more seasons played. He also only won 1 championship in his last 9 seasons & it was in the bubble. If players like Curry, Harden & Durant still have high stats going into their 19th-20th seasons than Lebron's longevity won't mean as much anymore if others are playing that long & still have high stats. It's crazy how in this generation it seems winning doesn't matter anymore just as long as you put up high stats & play really long. It's pretty wild how he's played 22 seasons & he still hasn't come close to surpass what Jordan did no matter how much he tries even with jumping from team to team & playing with an insane amount of elite talent.

He’s 40!!!!!

lol that's the excuse they want to use but throughout the season they say he's a top 5 or 10 player & were even saying he was playing at an MVP level at one point. Yet when the Lakers choke worse than any other team this postseason they just come up with all the excuses in the world.

[michaelm]

Lebron's longevity is a bit overrated. Yeah, he has his stats but why doesn't winning matter or why anything else isn't brought up like how he's missed 134 total season games in the past 7 seasons. He's only played in 2 more season games total over Kareem in 2 more seasons played. He also only won 1 championship in his last 9 seasons & it was in the bubble. If players like Curry, Harden & Durant still have high stats going into their 19th-20th seasons than Lebron's longevity won't mean as much anymore if others are playing that long & still have high stats. It's crazy how in this generation it seems winning doesn't matter anymore just as long as you put up high stats & play really long. It's pretty wild how he's played 22 seasons & he still hasn't come close to surpass what Jordan did no matter how much he tries even with jumping from team to team & playing with an insane amount of elite talent.

He’s 40!!!!!

lol that's the excuse they want to use but throughout the season they say he's a top 5 or 10 player & were even saying he was playing at an MVP level at one point. Yet when the Lakers choke worse than any other team this postseason they just come up with all the excuses in the world.

Yes, they can’t have it both ways

I can’t see how he can simultaneously be better than Jordan because of his play after he turned 35 but simultaneously deserve allowances because of his age.

Jordan and he both have impressive longevity imo, having been FMVPs in title wins at the age of 35. It is Jordan for me perhaps at least partly because I was around when he played, but LeBron partisans and probably he himself seem to have pivoted his GOAT case to being about individual cumulative stats once they/he realised he wouldn’t win 6 titles. The latter seemed to be very much his aim at one time.

LeBron of course has a case, not a convincing one for me personally obviously, but accumulating individual stats biased towards the regular season past the age of 35 on an uncompetitive team does not add much to his case imo.

[ScrantonBulls]

He’s 40!!!!!

lol that's the excuse they want to use but throughout the season they say he's a top 5 or 10 player & were even saying he was playing at an MVP level at one point. Yet when the Lakers choke worse than any other team this postseason they just come up with all the excuses in the world.

Yes, they can’t have it both ways

I can’t see how he can simultaneously be better than Jordan because of his play after he turned 35 but simultaneously deserve allowances because of his age.

Jordan and he both have impressive longevity imo, having been FMVPs in title wins at the age of 35. It is Jordan for me perhaps at least partly because I was around when he played, but LeBron partisans and probably he himself seem to have pivoted his GOAT case to being about individual cumulative stats once they/he realised he wouldn’t win 6 titles. The latter seemed to be very much his aim at one time.

LeBron of course has a case, not a convincing one for me personally obviously, but accumulating individual stats biased towards the regular season past the age of 35 on an uncompetitive team does not add much to his case imo.

You used to make better arguments than this michaelm. It feels like you've gotten so upset/jaded at LeBron and at the whole GOAT debate that you've resorted to making intellectually dishonest points like this. I mean, there's no way you honestly believe some of the things you wrote here. Trying to argue that playing like a top 10 player into your 40s is nothing special. It's simply accumulating stats if you don't win a championship, you're "uncompetitive" and not helping your team win. I guess we should remove Barkley from the top 75. He ain't got no rangz!1

Try to separate the person from the player you are discussing. Try looking at it objectively.

[michaelm]

lol that's the excuse they want to use but throughout the season they say he's a top 5 or 10 player & were even saying he was playing at an MVP level at one point. Yet when the Lakers choke worse than any other team this postseason they just come up with all the excuses in the world.

Yes, they can’t have it both ways

I can’t see how he can simultaneously be better than Jordan because of his play after he turned 35 but simultaneously deserve allowances because of his age.

Jordan and he both have impressive longevity imo, having been FMVPs in title wins at the age of 35. It is Jordan for me perhaps at least partly because I was around when he played, but LeBron partisans and probably he himself seem to have pivoted his GOAT case to being about individual cumulative stats once they/he realised he wouldn’t win 6 titles. The latter seemed to be very much his aim at one time.

LeBron of course has a case, not a convincing one for me personally obviously, but accumulating individual stats biased towards the regular season past the age of 35 on an uncompetitive team does not add much to his case imo.

You used to make better arguments than this michaelm. It feels like you've gotten so upset/jaded at LeBron and at the whole GOAT debate that you've resorted to making intellectually dishonest points like this. I mean, there's no way you honestly believe some of the things you wrote here. Trying to argue that playing like a top 10 player into your 40s is nothing special. It's simply accumulating stats if you don't win a championship, you're "uncompetitive" and not helping your team win. I guess we should remove Barkley from the top 75. He ain't got no rangz!1

Try to separate the person from the player you are discussing. Try looking at it objectively.

I withdrew because of the breach of Godwin’s law by a poster who has departed.

This particular aspect of the debate I have always agreed with, accumulating individual stats mainly in the regular season while mostly ignoring defense which do not contribute to his team being overly competitive while better than what Jordan did when he played for the Wizards does not add much to his GOAT case imo, and specifically commented because someone wanted to argue that allowances need to be made for his age. I agree with the latter, but not if you want to argue his GOAT case on the basis of his play in his basketball old age.

[michaelm]

Double

[AmIWrongDude]

Players really should just sit at home unless they’re going to win a championship. Why even play basketball at all?

[bledredwine]

lol that's the excuse they want to use but throughout the season they say he's a top 5 or 10 player & were even saying he was playing at an MVP level at one point. Yet when the Lakers choke worse than any other team this postseason they just come up with all the excuses in the world.

Yes, they can’t have it both ways

I can’t see how he can simultaneously be better than Jordan because of his play after he turned 35 but simultaneously deserve allowances because of his age.

Jordan and he both have impressive longevity imo, having been FMVPs in title wins at the age of 35. It is Jordan for me perhaps at least partly because I was around when he played, but LeBron partisans and probably he himself seem to have pivoted his GOAT case to being about individual cumulative stats once they/he realised he wouldn’t win 6 titles. The latter seemed to be very much his aim at one time.

LeBron of course has a case, not a convincing one for me personally obviously, but accumulating individual stats biased towards the regular season past the age of 35 on an uncompetitive team does not add much to his case imo.

You used to make better arguments than this michaelm. It feels like you've gotten so upset/jaded at LeBron and at the whole GOAT debate that you've resorted to making intellectually dishonest points like this. I mean, there's no way you honestly believe some of the things you wrote here. Trying to argue that playing like a top 10 player into your 40s is nothing special. It's simply accumulating stats if you don't win a championship, you're "uncompetitive" and not helping your team win. I guess we should remove Barkley from the top 75. He ain't got no rangz!1

Try to separate the person from the player you are discussing. Try looking at it objectively.

A lebron fan talking about accumulated stats? That's even more irony from you.

And Lebron's peak stats are already getting passed up by Jokic, just as I had predicted in this era of inflated stats, early in Lebron's career.

Call me the oracle.

[michaelm]

Players really should just sit at home unless they’re going to win a championship. Why even play basketball at all?

Nice straw man. Who has said this ?. Certainly not me.

He can do whatever he chooses as far as I am concerned, just as Jordan did. Why Jordan wanted to play for the Wizards as a shadow of his former self escapes me now as it did back then. Maybe he just liked playing basketball, as you guys constantly claim is LeBron’s motivation.

Again, my point is a simple one, that regular season stats for a team which loses in the first round of the playoffs don’t imo advance his case for GOATship over Jordan, nothing more, nothing less. If he and/or his fans find it enjoyable good for him and them.

[DOT]

Again, my point is a simple one, that regular season stats for a team which loses in the first round of the playoffs don’t imo advance his case for GOATship

My point is a simple one, that any criticisms applied to one should be valid for the other

So should we apply this logic to MJ as well, that regular season stats only matter if your team advances past the first round?

[michaelm]

Again, my point is a simple one, that regular season stats for a team which loses in the first round of the playoffs don’t imo advance his case for GOATship

My point is a simple one, that any criticisms applied to one should be valid for the other

So should we apply this logic to MJ as well, that regular season stats only matter if your team advances past the first round?

Perhaps I wasn't clear. This was in the context of a discussion of whether LeBron's play after the age of 35 advances his GOAT case over Jordan, and a simultaneous argument that it does but also that allowances should be made for his age.

Sure getting beaten in the first round with good regular season statistics didn't/wouldn't advance Jordan's case imo either, and playing for the Washington Wizards in his late 30s certainly didn't. Both players obviously have much else to recommend them however which I have never denied in Lebron's case, but I agreed with a recent poster who posted that his longevity past the age of 35 is over-rated in the GOAT debate since it hasn't been to much purpose as far as team success goes; I meant by this as I considered did the poster the Lakers contending to some degree rather than winning titles. You would appear to disagree which is fine.

[MrPainfulTruth]

There is clear and conclusive evidence that LeBron priorizes accumulating empty calorie individual stats over team success because he sacrifices defense. The devestating impact on his teams success is apparent. All straw men created by his bubble wont convince anyone any more at this point. We've heard it all, but we also see what he does every game and has been doing since 2018. That means that his last six years were a negative on his GOAT case, because you cant have it both ways - brag about longevity but whenever he is held accountable try to use his age as excuse.

Nice try guys but find smoething more creative. This has story line is exhausted. Look at the Poll results for a reality check. Even with all your double and triple accounts, MJ beats him by a mile.

[michaelm]

There is clear and conclusive evidence that LeBron priorizes accumulating empty calorie individual stats over team success because he sacrifices defense. The devestating impact on his teams success is apparent. All straw men created by his bubble wont convince anyone any more at this point. We've heard it all, but we also see what he does every game and has been doing since 2018. That means that his last six years were a negative on his GOAT case, because you cant have it both ways - brag about longevity but whenever he is held accountable try to use his age as excuse.

Nice try guys but find smoething more creative. This has story line is exhausted. Look at the Poll results for a reality check. Even with all your double and triple accounts, MJ beats him by a mile.

I wouldn’t go so far, he does help them win, they finished 3rd in the regular season.

He isn’t doing GOAT level stuff imo though, and I don’t see how playing at a non GOAT level past the age of 35 strengthens his GOAT case. If people want to look at what players have done after the age of 35 Kareem who at least contributed to titles has it over LeBron or Jordan.