Luka Shaq vs West Bird

[One_and_Done]

West couldn't even dribble adequately today for his position, and has no proven 3 point shot. Those 2 things are fatal, before we get into his weak competition. The man played in a barely professional league.

[GeorgeMarcus]

"Talent math" is close.

Nope.

t could be argued that 2 top 10-15 players would rate even higher today.

No it can't.

You haven't provided any arguments, you're just saying "no" lol

The points I made aren't even controversial

[eminence]

I'll go with Team Fat Guys

Almost always prefer a true big as one of my duo.

[OhayoKD]

"Talent math" is close.

Nope.

t could be argued that 2 top 10-15 players would rate even higher today.

No it can't.

You haven't provided any arguments, you're just saying "no" lol

The points I made aren't even controversial

Players in far inferior leagues are getting worse in much more talented ones. This isn't hard.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Nope.

No it can't.

You haven't provided any arguments, you're just saying "no" lol

The points I made aren't even controversial

Players in far inferior leagues are getting worse in much more talented ones. This isn't hard.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm ok with West/Bird. Team fat guys is too questionable with their fitness/durability/defense & ft shooting for me to take them here. West's durability would also go up quite a bit I think with modern shoes & his mpg going down a lot. Also West at age 60 or 70 literally stood at the top of the 3 pt line to demonstrate his shooting technique and hit like 10 in a row while not even being known to shoot much. I don't have much of any question that he'd shoot 3's fine.

[OhayoKD]

You haven't provided any arguments, you're just saying "no" lol

The points I made aren't even controversial

Players in far inferior leagues are getting worse in much more talented ones. This isn't hard.

Curious if this is directed at the idea leagues with much bigger talent pools and financial investment are better (I sure hope not) or at me rejecting the concept that a power-foward who lacked power, hops, arm-strength, quickness, fludity, or deceleration is a special unicorn who transcends common sense because he hit a couple wide open threes a game.

[OhayoKD]

West couldn't even dribble adequately today for his position, and has no proven 3 point shot. Those 2 things are fatal, before we get into his weak competition. The man played in a barely professional league.

Bird is a bigger era merchant than West was lol

[70sFan]

And I would pay money to watch Larry Bird try to defend...anything.

Or attack anything for that matter.

You can do that by watching games, you know?

Unfortunately for Bird, it's precisely "watching the games" that calls into question why he's being discussed in the same breath as Shaq or Luka outside of a purely era-relative convo.

Cool, if you watched him extensively, then why you "would pay money to watch Bird try to defend anything"?

I also don't get the idea how era helps Bird in this discussion. Bird doesn't have the skills that made him outlier impact guy specifically in the 1980s.

[70sFan]

West couldn't even dribble adequately today for his position, and has no proven 3 point shot. Those 2 things are fatal, before we get into his weak competition. The man played in a barely professional league.

Yeah, we all know he's worse 3P shooter than Draymond Green. 0% < 20%, case closed.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Players in far inferior leagues are getting worse in much more talented ones. This isn't hard.

Curious if this is directed at the idea leagues with much bigger talent pools and financial investment are better (I sure hope not) or at me rejecting the concept that a power-foward who lacked power, hops, arm-strength, quickness, fludity, or deceleration is a special unicorn who transcends common sense because he hit a couple wide open threes a game.

Larry Bird LACKED FLUIDITY!? Now that I never heard before. Based on your denigration it sounds like you'd think Jokic wouldn't succeed in today's NBA based on his athletic profile. It's just nonsense man. I'm wondering where your arbitrary cutoff is when great NBA players first came into being. It's obvious you haven't watched film on either player, you're just making blanket generalizations. Shaq struggled against teams/players that were dominated by Bird so your theory doesn't really check out.

[One_and_Done]

West couldn't even dribble adequately today for his position, and has no proven 3 point shot. Those 2 things are fatal, before we get into his weak competition. The man played in a barely professional league.

Yeah, we all know he's worse 3P shooter than Draymond Green. 0% < 20%, case closed.

Posts like this misunderstand the point. I am sure Len Bias would have been a better player than Steve Kerr; but he has to rank below him because it never happened for him. You only get credit for stuff you actually did. West never actually demonstrated a 3pt shot. If he'd been born in a time when 3s were common then I suspect he'd have been pretty good at it, but I can't grant him that ability based off pure speculation.

[70sFan]

Players in far inferior leagues are getting worse in much more talented ones. This isn't hard.

Curious if this is directed at the idea leagues with much bigger talent pools and financial investment are better (I sure hope not) or at me rejecting the concept that a power-foward who lacked power, hops, arm-strength, quickness, fludity, or deceleration is a special unicorn who transcends common sense because he hit a couple wide open threes a game.

If you mean arm strength in throwing passes, then I don't see that at all.

[Cavsfansince84]

It is kind of funny though because it is true that if Jokic's career had started 10-15 years earlier plenty of people who post here would scream up and down about how his athleticism+ skills absolutely would not translate to him still being a top 5 player today. We'd hear how his defense would be so bad and everything else. Yet... here we are with him probably deserving his 5th mvp in a row and with one of the best playoff runs of all time in 2023.

[70sFan]

West couldn't even dribble adequately today for his position, and has no proven 3 point shot. Those 2 things are fatal, before we get into his weak competition. The man played in a barely professional league.

Yeah, we all know he's worse 3P shooter than Draymond Green. 0% < 20%, case closed.

Posts like this misunderstand the point. I am sure Len Bias would have been a better player than Steve Kerr; but he has to rank below him because it never happened for him. You only get credit for stuff you actually did. West never actually demonstrated a 3pt shot. If he'd been born in a time when 3s were common then I suspect he'd have been pretty good at it, but I can't grant him that ability based off pure speculation.

Cool, then West is a worse shooter than Draymond Green, goos to know. Just please, don't speculate about Luka dribbling successfully in the 1960s because he never demonstrated that ability. Don't use double standards and stop projecting your biases, be consistent.

[OhayoKD]

You can do that by watching games, you know?

Unfortunately for Bird, it's precisely "watching the games" that calls into question why he's being discussed in the same breath as Shaq or Luka outside of a purely era-relative convo.

Cool, if you watched him extensively, then why you "would pay money to watch Bird try to defend anything"?

I also don't get the idea how era helps Bird in this discussion. Bird doesn't have the skills that made him outlier impact guy specifically in the 1980s.

It was specifically "to watch him defend in the modern nba" which i thought would be clear based on what i replied to ("i would pay to watch shaq/luka in the nba" and what i've posted this thread and regarding bird in general.

Era helps because he's too slow and weak to be a passable perimiter defender or a notable paint protector and his lack of hops and limited ball-handling is nuking his offense (basically lacks any inside gravity). He'd probably have to triple his 3pas and maintain that same effeciency against defenses actually defending that his deep-ball just to be a top 5 offensive player.

[OhayoKD]

It is kind of funny though because it is true that if Jokic's career had started 10-15 years earlier plenty of people who post here would scream up and down about how his athleticism+ skills absolutely would not translate to him still being a top 5 player. We'd hear how his defense would be so bad and everything else. Yet... here we are with him probably deserving his 5th mvp in a row and with one of the best playoff runs of all time in 2023.

Yes Nikola Jokic, someone way bigger and stronger with better shooting touch and much better passing range and better handles than Larry Bird is definitely proof Larry Bird would lose no impact translating to a vastly more talented league lol.

Bird has as much in common with Jokic as he does Franz Wagner. Maybe the issue here is you thinking all tall white guys who can pass are by rule comparable talents.

[70sFan]

Unfortunately for Bird, it's precisely "watching the games" that calls into question why he's being discussed in the same breath as Shaq or Luka outside of a purely era-relative convo.

Cool, if you watched him extensively, then why you "would pay money to watch Bird try to defend anything"?

I also don't get the idea how era helps Bird in this discussion. Bird doesn't have the skills that made him outlier impact guy specifically in the 1980s.

It was specifically "to watch him defend in the modern nba" which i thought would be clear based on what i replied to ("i would pay to watch shaq/luka in the nba" and what i've posted this thread and regarding bird in general.

Era helps because he's too slow and weak to be a passable perimiter defender or a notable paint protector and his lack of hops and limited ball-handling is nuking his offense (basically lacks any inside gravity). He'd probably have to triple his 3pas and maintain that same effeciency against defenses actually defending that his deep-ball just to be a top 5 offensive player.

Bird was too slow or too weak in comparison to Luka Doncic? Are you serious? You act like we don't have significantly worse athletes in the league being passable defensively.

Acting like a player with Bird's post game lacked any inside gravity is also indefensible.

[One_and_Done]

Yeah, we all know he's worse 3P shooter than Draymond Green. 0% < 20%, case closed.

Posts like this misunderstand the point. I am sure Len Bias would have been a better player than Steve Kerr; but he has to rank below him because it never happened for him. You only get credit for stuff you actually did. West never actually demonstrated a 3pt shot. If he'd been born in a time when 3s were common then I suspect he'd have been pretty good at it, but I can't grant him that ability based off pure speculation.

Cool, then West is a worse shooter than Draymond Green, goos to know. Just please, don't speculate about Luka dribbling successfully in the 1960s because he never demonstrated that ability. Don't use double standards and stop projecting your biases, be consistent.

He gets no credit for 3pt shooting is the way I would put it, not that his shooting form is worse. From midrange West was a deadly shooter, clearly much better than Draymond.

I've explained 50 times that dribbling badly is a subset of dribbling well, so it's not a double standard in the slightest. If you reach the point you can dribble masterfully, then you can also dribble badly too. It's no different to how if you can run, you can also crawl. I don't need to see you crawl to know you can do it, because it's just a subset of running and walking. On the other hand, we've seen with guys like Demar that being a good midrange shooter is no guarantee you will be any good at 3pt shooting.

Lastly, it's more important how you translate to today's superior game. So while most modern guys would translate great going backwards too, it's somewhat moot.

[OhayoKD]

Curious if this is directed at the idea leagues with much bigger talent pools and financial investment are better (I sure hope not) or at me rejecting the concept that a power-foward who lacked power, hops, arm-strength, quickness, fludity, or deceleration is a special unicorn who transcends common sense because he hit a couple wide open threes a game.

If you mean arm strength in throwing passes, then I don't see that at all.

Jokic's passes go further and have higher velocity.