Luka Shaq vs West Bird

[70sFan]

He gets no credit for 3pt shooting is the way I would put it, not that his shooting form is worse. From midrange West was a deadly shooter, clearly much better than Draymond.

Was West a more capable three point shooter than Draymond Green or not?

I've explained 50 times that dribbling badly is a subset of dribbling well, so it's not a double standard in the slightest. If you reach the point you can dribble masterfully, then you can also dribble badly too. It's no different to how if you can run, you can also crawl. I don't need to see you crawl to know you can do it, because it's just a subset of running and walking.

Unfortunately West would be completely unable to master these masterful techniques of modern dribbling:




Truly unimaginable that he'd ever be able to accomplish the level of skills required to master that. All he could do is crawl, he's no runner.

Lastly, it's more important how you translate to today's superior game. So while most modern guys would translate great going backwards too, it's somewhat moot.

What makes modern rules superior to old rules? That's complete nonsense.

[70sFan]

Curious if this is directed at the idea leagues with much bigger talent pools and financial investment are better (I sure hope not) or at me rejecting the concept that a power-foward who lacked power, hops, arm-strength, quickness, fludity, or deceleration is a special unicorn who transcends common sense because he hit a couple wide open threes a game.

If you mean arm strength in throwing passes, then I don't see that at all.

Jokic's passes go further and have higher velocity.

So that's the definition of "lacking arm-strength" now? I think we should also say that nobody can shoot these days, because only Curry can do things he does.

With all respect, your criticism is absolutely ridiculous.

[One_and_Done]

He gets no credit for 3pt shooting is the way I would put it, not that his shooting form is worse. From midrange West was a deadly shooter, clearly much better than Draymond.

Was West a more capable three point shooter than Draymond Green or not?

Was Len Bias a better athlete than Steve Kerr? No doubt. It doesn't matter though, because he never utilised that athleticism on an NBA court and we can only rank people for things they actually did.

As for today's game being more important, of course it should be weighted more. Teams from the 60s would lose to Euroleague teams today. It matters more how you'd do against the toughest competition, not a barely professional bush league (that's not my description of the 60s, that's Wilt who played in it).

[70sFan]

Was Len Bias a better athlete than Steve Kerr? No doubt. It doesn't matter though, because he never utilised that athleticism on an NBA court and we can only rank people for things they actually did.

Of course it matters when you do cross-era comparisons. We're not talking about career value here, Bias definitely was a better athlete than Kerr and so would be in any era of the NBA.

So West was a bad ball-handler because he never used dribble technique (can we even call it that way?) Giannis showcased here... simply because it wasn't allowed by the rules.

As for today's game being more important, of course it should be weighted more. Teams from the 60s would lose to Euroleague teams today. It matters more how you'd do against the toughest competition, not a barely professional bush league (that's not my description of the 60s, that's Wilt who played in it).

Nice to see you ignoring my question again. What makes modern rules superior to old ones? I am not talking about talent, this is a discussion about the rules. What makes one set of rules superior than another?

[OhayoKD]

He gets no credit for 3pt shooting is the way I would put it, not that his shooting form is worse. From midrange West was a deadly shooter, clearly much better than Draymond.

Was West a more capable three point shooter than Draymond Green or not?

Was Len Bias a better athlete than Steve Kerr? No doubt. It doesn't matter though, because he never utilised that athleticism on an NBA court and we can only rank people for things they actually did.

As for today's game being more important, of course it should be weighted more. Teams from the 60s would lose to Euroleague teams today. It matters more how you'd do against the toughest competition, not a barely professional bush league (that's not my description of the 60s, that's Wilt who played in it).

You know there are things to consider beyond three-point shooting when thinking about older players? Jerry West isn't hard to crap on. Idk why you're dying on "but we don't KNOW if he can shoot like Draymond?"

[OhayoKD]

If you mean arm strength in throwing passes, then I don't see that at all.

Jokic's passes go further and have higher velocity.

So that's the definition of "lacking arm-strength" now? I think we should also say that nobody can shoot these days, because only Curry can do things he does.

With all respect, your criticism is absolutely ridiculous.

Considering you just +1'd "bird is comparable to Jokic", I don't think so.

[One_and_Done]

Was Len Bias a better athlete than Steve Kerr? No doubt. It doesn't matter though, because he never utilised that athleticism on an NBA court and we can only rank people for things they actually did.

Of course it matters when you do cross-era comparisons.

A question can take the form of an answer.

[Cavsfansince84]

I also want to add that 'modern dribbling' is not 100% skill based. It's more just being able to do w/e you want with some skill/moves added in. Look at how quickly most of the league added in step back 3's to their skill set. It basically happened within a few years at most to where almost every wing scorer in the league now does it proficiently.

[OhayoKD]

I also want to add that 'modern dribbling' is not 100% skill based. It's more just being able to do w/e you want with some skill/moves added in. Look at how quickly most of the league added in step back 3's to their skill set. It basically happened within a few years at most to where almost every wing scorer in the league now does it proficiently.

That's great and all but I'm still trying to figure out how 80s Franz Wagner equals Nikola Jokic

[One_and_Done]

I also want to add that 'modern dribbling' is not 100% skill based. It's more just being able to do w/e you want with some skill/moves added in. Look at how quickly most of the league added in step back 3's to their skill set. It basically happened within a few years at most to where almost every wing scorer in the league now does it proficiently.

Dribbling like a Kyrie or Nash is not something you can just pick up. It's something you have to develop at a young age over a long time. Of course some would respond 'you don't need Nash/Kyrie handles to play today', and that's obviously true. Guys like Giannis or Jaylen Brown don't need that sort of handle, but a lead guard needs a very good handle to succeed.

West would be fine coming off the bench as an energy scorer from midrange who could defend, but without modern shooting and guard handles he'd be very limited.

[Cavsfansince84]

Dribbling like a Kyrie or Nash is not something you can just pick up. It's something you have to develop at a young age over a long time. Of course some would respond 'you don't need Nash/Kyrie handles to play today', and that's obviously true. Guys like Giannis or Jaylen Brown don't need that sort of handle, but a lead guard needs a very good handle to succeed.

West would be fine coming off the bench as an energy scorer from midrange who could defend, but without modern shooting and guard handles he'd be very limited.

Again, a lot of what you are calling modern dribbling is just doing w/e you want with the ball. I gave one example of something that requires some skill and how most every wing in the league practiced and it added it to their repertoire within a year or two. So no, I don't accept what you say as fact or anywhere close to it, so pls just stop giving every opinion you hold as some kind of incontrovertible thing. West very well could and imo would adapt within a couple years because he's going to do w/e gives him a competitive advantage within the rules.

[One_and_Done]

Dribbling like a Kyrie or Nash is not something you can just pick up. It's something you have to develop at a young age over a long time. Of course some would respond 'you don't need Nash/Kyrie handles to play today', and that's obviously true. Guys like Giannis or Jaylen Brown don't need that sort of handle, but a lead guard needs a very good handle to succeed.

West would be fine coming off the bench as an energy scorer from midrange who could defend, but without modern shooting and guard handles he'd be very limited.

Again, a lot of what you are calling modern dribbling is just doing w/e you want with the ball. I gave one example of something that requires some skill and how most every wing in the league practiced and it added it to their repertoire within a year or two. So no, I don't accept what you say as fact or anywhere close to it, so pls just stop giving every opinion you hold as some kind of incontrovertible thing. West very well could and imo would adapt within a couple years because he's going to do w/e gives him a competitive advantage within the rules.

Who are the players who went from having no handle to having lead guard handles? I can't think of anyone, though maybe there are examples I'm missing. It's an underexamined issue to be sure.

Even when I look at guys who are among the most incredible improvement stories in NBA history, like Kawhi, his handle was the one thing that never seemed to develop much.

Nobody is saying West would be unplayable today, but to be an elite lead guard you need ways to create separation. That can be with elite handles and shake, it can be with athleticism, etc, but you need a way to do it reliably without help. In today's game West would struggle in that respect with the skillset he had, and then he's got no proven 3pt game, so he's honestly best suited to be a bench player.

[Cavsfansince84]

Who are the players who went from having no handle to having lead guard handles? I can't think of anyone, though maybe there are examples I'm missing. It's an underexamined issue to be sure.

Even when I look at guys who are among the most incredible improvement stories in NBA history, like Kawhi, his handle was the one thing that never seemed to develop much.

Nobody is saying West would be unplayable today, but to be an elite lead guard you need ways to create separation. That can be with elite handles and shake, it can be with athleticism, etc, but you need a way to do it reliably without help. In today's game West would struggle in that respect with the skillset he had, and then he's got no proven 3pt game, so he's honestly best suited to be a bench player.

What player today is being transported here from the 1960's to make that a valid question? West's potential as a ball handler in today's league is a totally unknown quantity. You come from a very modernist type of bias I would say and so argue from that but you have to understand that not everyone here shares that view in these kinds of debates. You aren't bringing anything to the table here really other than your own doubts that West or Oscar or whoever could adapt to today's game given time to. What I gave you an example of is how quickly today's players were able to add a skill that is considered part of today's league and we already know that West was a very hard worker and super competitive so I don't think his work ethic is possibly going to hold him back the way it does some players who simply become content with what they can do at age 25. Much like how Luka refuses to dedicate himself to having a good diet and doing fitness year round. Some guys just aren't built that way and that's nothing new with athletes.

[One_and_Done]

Who are the players who went from having no handle to having lead guard handles? I can't think of anyone, though maybe there are examples I'm missing. It's an underexamined issue to be sure.

Even when I look at guys who are among the most incredible improvement stories in NBA history, like Kawhi, his handle was the one thing that never seemed to develop much.

Nobody is saying West would be unplayable today, but to be an elite lead guard you need ways to create separation. That can be with elite handles and shake, it can be with athleticism, etc, but you need a way to do it reliably without help. In today's game West would struggle in that respect with the skillset he had, and then he's got no proven 3pt game, so he's honestly best suited to be a bench player.

What player today is being transported here from the 1960's to make that a valid question? West's potential as a ball handler in today's league is a totally unknown quantity. You come from a very modernist type of bias I would say and so argue from that but you have to understand that not everyone here shares that view in these kinds of debates. You aren't bringing anything to the table here really other than your own doubts that West or Oscar or whoever could adapt to today's game given time to. What I gave you an example of is how quickly today's players were able to add a skill that is considered part of today's league and we already know that West was a very hard worker and super competitive so I don't think his work ethic is possibly going to hold him back the way it does some players who simply become content with what they can do at age 25. Much like how Luka refuses to dedicate himself to having a good diet and doing fitness year round. Some guys just aren't built that way and that's nothing new with athletes.

So no examples?

[Cavsfansince84]

So no examples?

Example of what? A player going from dribbling like they did in the 60's to becoming a great ball handler by today's standards? Is this real life right now? Honestly, let's just stop doing this.

[One_and_Done]

So no examples?

Example of what? A player going from dribbling like they did in the 60's to becoming a great ball handler by today's standards? Is this real life right now? Honestly, let's just stop doing this.

How about just an example of a player going from a poor dribbler to an elite one.

[TheGOATRises007]

Bird being the equivalent of Franz Wagner today is a take i never thought I'd see on the PC board

[One_and_Done]

Bird being the equivalent of Franz Wagner today is a take i never thought I'd see on the PC board

Yeh I'll go on the record as saying this is a ridiculous take. Bird is a top 10 all-time player, or close to it. He shouldn't be in the same sentence as Franz Wagner.

[Cavsfansince84]

How about just an example of a player going from a poor dribbler to an elite one.

I already clearly said above that its not analagous at all to what we are talking about(taking a player from the 60's and putting them in today's league). You may disagree with me on this but imo it's irrelevant to what we are discussing. Having said that, MJ in one summer according to Kenny Smith went from having poor handles at age 19/20 to where he would always beat him 1 on 1 because he could steal the ball to not being able to beat him at all because his handles had improved so much.

[One_and_Done]

How about just an example of a player going from a poor dribbler to an elite one.

I already clearly said above that its not analagous at all to what we are talking about(taking a player from the 60's and putting them in today's league). You may disagree with me on this but imo it's irrelevant to what we are discussing. Having said that, MJ in one summer according to Kenny Smith went from having poor handles at age 19/20 to where he would always beat him 1 on 1 because he could steal the ball to not being able to beat him at all because his handles had improved so much.

An anecdote from talking head Kenny Smith is near valueless tbh. And yes, I disagree with you about it not being relevant. Whether you can improve your handle to elite level once you're in the NBA is extremely relevant to West's viability today.