Luka Shaq vs West Bird

[Cavsfansince84]

An anecdote from talking head Kenny Smith is near valueless tbh. And yes, I disagree with you about it not being relevant. Whether you can improve your handle to elite level once you're in the NBA is extremely relevant to West's viability today.

Valueless why? I mean.. it is an example of a guy working on his handle for one summer and increasing it greatly. Anecdotes aren't to be used as generalizations but they are very valid as examples of something. So I don't see why you'd dismiss it other than you don't want to admit its valid but anyhow, the reason I'm saying its irrelevant to West is he's going from one set of rules to another. A guy who is already in the nba has been playing by the same rules most of his life so that's a big difference. I mean it might be slightly relevant but its not a good basis for saying what West could possibly do in the space of 1 or 5 years because its a matter of how you practice.

[One_and_Done]

An anecdote from talking head Kenny Smith is near valueless tbh. And yes, I disagree with you about it not being relevant. Whether you can improve your handle to elite level once you're in the NBA is extremely relevant to West's viability today.

Valueless why? I mean.. it is an example of a guy working on his handle for one summer and increasing it greatly. Anecdotes aren't to be used as generalizations but they are very valid as examples of something. So I don't see why you'd dismiss it other than you don't want to admit its valid but anyhow, the reason I'm saying its irrelevant to West is he's going from one set of rules to another. A guy who is already in the nba has been playing by the same rules most of his life so that's a big difference. I mean it might be slightly relevant but its not a good basis for saying what West could possibly do in the space of 1 or 5 years because its a matter of how you practice.

It's Kenny Smith. A loudmouth who says whatever he thinks will get a cheer, no matter how inconsistent or wrong it is. I heard the guys on Inside the NBA last night say that the Celtics never pass for example.

When I asked for an example I meant a real example, one we could maybe see on tape, not Kenny Smith's latest unprovable tall tale.

[Ol Roy]

Jerry West and Larry Bird. Their offensive skills would translate perfectly today. And they are just much more serious people when it comes to the game and leadership.

[Cavsfansince84]

It's Kenny Smith. A loudmouth who says whatever he thinks will get a cheer, no matter how inconsistent or wrong it is. I heard the guys on Inside the NBA last night say that the Celtics never pass for example.

When I asked for an example I meant a real example, one we could maybe see on tape, not Kenny Smith's latest unprovable tall tale.

Big difference between making an offhand remark and telling a story imo. Honeslty, I don't even know why you are acting like guys don't improve their handle if they work on it. Most nba players though are pretty developed in that area by the time they are 23-24 and nba starters so if they haven't developed it by then chances are its a hand eye coordination thing or a refusal to just work on it. MJ in his unc days was working on his game constantly. That's a well known thing and it also makes sense he'd be driven to improve on w/e he needed to in order to beat guys 1 on 1.

[One_and_Done]

It's Kenny Smith. Kenny.Smith.

'Let me tell you, I used to beat Jordan all the time when he was young. Then he had to go train harder and improve his handles to keep up with me'

[70sFan]

Jokic's passes go further and have higher velocity.

So that's the definition of "lacking arm-strength" now? I think we should also say that nobody can shoot these days, because only Curry can do things he does.

With all respect, your criticism is absolutely ridiculous.

Considering you just +1'd "bird is comparable to Jokic", I don't think so.

Considering I didn't, I have doubts if you really think.

[Jaivl]

Cool, if you watched him extensively, then why you "would pay money to watch Bird try to defend anything"?

I also don't get the idea how era helps Bird in this discussion. Bird doesn't have the skills that made him outlier impact guy specifically in the 1980s.

It was specifically "to watch him defend in the modern nba" which i thought would be clear based on what i replied to ("i would pay to watch shaq/luka in the nba" and what i've posted this thread and regarding bird in general.

Era helps because he's too slow and weak to be a passable perimiter defender or a notable paint protector and his lack of hops and limited ball-handling is nuking his offense (basically lacks any inside gravity). He'd probably have to triple his 3pas and maintain that same effeciency against defenses actually defending that his deep-ball just to be a top 5 offensive player.

Bird was too slow or too weak in comparison to Luka Doncic? Are you serious? You act like we don't have significantly worse athletes in the league being passable defensively.

Acting like a player with Bird's post game lacked any inside gravity is also indefensible.

Joe Ingles, probably the least athletic player in the league, was a plus defender until he completely broke down.

[Cavsfansince84]

It's Kenny Smith. Kenny.Smith.

'Let me tell you, I used to beat Jordan all the time when he was young. Then he had to go train harder and improve his handles to keep up with me'

He only told the story though to demonstrate MJ's work ethic while at unc. It's pretty obvious to me that you are only fighting so hard against this because you see it as somehow working against your argument and are determined to think it therefore must absolutely be some story Kenny just made up because he's Kenny Smith. So again, I am putting close to 0 stock in anything you are saying here and nothing you can say will change my mind about that. Maybe just accept we don't agree and stop just giving me kind of silly one liners as a real form of argument. It's like you are the villain from an 80's movie falling out of a skyscraper and just emptying your gun on the way down from my pov.

[OhayoKD]

It was specifically "to watch him defend in the modern nba" which i thought would be clear based on what i replied to ("i would pay to watch shaq/luka in the nba" and what i've posted this thread and regarding bird in general.

Era helps because he's too slow and weak to be a passable perimiter defender or a notable paint protector and his lack of hops and limited ball-handling is nuking his offense (basically lacks any inside gravity). He'd probably have to triple his 3pas and maintain that same effeciency against defenses actually defending that his deep-ball just to be a top 5 offensive player.

Bird was too slow or too weak in comparison to Luka Doncic? Are you serious? You act like we don't have significantly worse athletes in the league being passable defensively.

Luka is far stronger than Bird. And he's not "passable" defensively anyway.

But Luka makes up for that because he was playing high-level basketball from a much younger age than Bird was and is far more skilled on top of generational deceleration and having the strength to play bullyball against the vast majority of players in the league. Which Bird of course lacks; all due respect to that incredible "post game" he showcased 60 years ago.

[OhayoKD]

It was specifically "to watch him defend in the modern nba" which i thought would be clear based on what i replied to ("i would pay to watch shaq/luka in the nba" and what i've posted this thread and regarding bird in general.

Era helps because he's too slow and weak to be a passable perimiter defender or a notable paint protector and his lack of hops and limited ball-handling is nuking his offense (basically lacks any inside gravity). He'd probably have to triple his 3pas and maintain that same effeciency against defenses actually defending that his deep-ball just to be a top 5 offensive player.

Bird was too slow or too weak in comparison to Luka Doncic? Are you serious? You act like we don't have significantly worse athletes in the league being passable defensively.

Acting like a player with Bird's post game lacked any inside gravity is also indefensible.

Joe Ingles, probably the least athletic player in the league, was a plus defender until he completely broke down.

Another white guy much stronger than Larry Bird.

I'm noticing a pattern here.

[70sFan]

A few examples of carrying violations from the 1960s and 1970s:

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxG7usa8qY6BmfaxAU8UFkRXrsz8uyXsO3?si=AB4mdWAxAgBvT43h

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxXxJRYded28HGOdB_xaG_wsf_VxUZO20O?si=NPSdTvjs7qTyDCkh

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxqYEzLF96Y6cxkDnrkF9vXmK9mBLDj404?si=uLveY2wfInh3P2rN

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxaUZgnSlm72yj6fRQiXPIIDt1JiwHY3L6?si=h0Jqg9qZeEUgRB3P

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxMTIAwwSWrkpKWY1uQpdLqoxRDQjcSwqH?si=Us_LQtyeKqDbzUdm

Dumb West just was physically unable to dribble the advanced way, it had nothing to do with the rules that didn't allow simple dribbles in 2020s way (not even talking about advanced moves, just basic dribble).

[70sFan]

Bird was too slow or too weak in comparison to Luka Doncic? Are you serious? You act like we don't have significantly worse athletes in the league being passable defensively.

Acting like a player with Bird's post game lacked any inside gravity is also indefensible.

Joe Ingles, probably the least athletic player in the league, was a plus defender until he completely broke down.

Another white guy much stronger than Larry Bird.

I'm noticing a pattern here.

At this point I start to believe that either you're trolling, or you just don't understand what you look at.

Also:

all due respect to that incredible "post game" he showcased 60 years ago.

Bird was 9 years old 60 years ago. Please, give us the footage of 9 years old Bird playing basketball if you have that!

[TheGOATRises007]

Joe Ingles, probably the least athletic player in the league, was a plus defender until he completely broke down.

Another white guy much stronger than Larry Bird.

I'm noticing a pattern here.

At this point I start to believe that either you're trolling, or you just don't understand what you look at.

Also:

all due respect to that incredible "post game" he showcased 60 years ago.

Bird was 9 years old 60 years ago. Please, give us the footage of 9 years old Bird playing basketball if you have that!

You're wasting your time

Some players, there's no point conversing with him

[lessthanjake]

So no examples?

Example of what? A player going from dribbling like they did in the 60's to becoming a great ball handler by today's standards? Is this real life right now? Honestly, let's just stop doing this.

How about just an example of a player going from a poor dribbler to an elite one.

We’ve gone down this road before, so definitely no need for us to have the same discussion again, but I just want to point out that I think this is pretty clearly a non-sequitur. Jerry West wouldn’t have to go from a poor dribbler to an elite one. He’d need to go from an elite dribbler under one ruleset to an elite dribbler under a different ruleset. Even if you think poor dribblers almost never become elite dribblers, that is a different question. Jerry West was not allowed to dribble the way players dribble today, so we have no information that tells us that Jerry West is a poor dribbler under the current ruleset. You’re just speculating that that’s the case, based on your view that dribbling under the current rule set is harder (a very dubious premise, but we’ve already discussed that at length in the past, so I won’t belabor that point). But, by that logic, if we put Kyrie Irving in the 1960s and you’d never seen him play in the modern era, you’d have to conclude he would be a poor dribbler under the current ruleset too.

[SNPA]

Bird was too slow or too weak in comparison to Luka Doncic? Are you serious? You act like we don't have significantly worse athletes in the league being passable defensively.

Luka is far stronger than Bird. And he's not "passable" defensively anyway.

But Luka makes up for that because he was playing high-level basketball from a much younger age than Bird was and is far more skilled on top of generational deceleration and having the strength to play bullyball against the vast majority of players in the league. Which Bird of course lacks; all due respect to that incredible "post game" he showcased 60 years ago.

WTF? You know Bird is a solid two inches + taller than Luka? Luka plays PG in the space and pace era, Bird played PF in the 80s.

You seem to be mistaking baby fat with strength.

[Outside]

Boy, would I pay money to watch Lakers' Luka and Shaq defend a pick and roll.

Just want to say, despite getting lost in all the nonsense that followed it, this is the post of the thread for me.

[1993Playoffs]

Not as big on Luka as I used to be but it’s still Luka/Shaq pretty easily.

[One_and_Done]

Example of what? A player going from dribbling like they did in the 60's to becoming a great ball handler by today's standards? Is this real life right now? Honestly, let's just stop doing this.

How about just an example of a player going from a poor dribbler to an elite one.

We’ve gone down this road before, so definitely no need for us to have the same discussion again, but I just want to point out that I think this is pretty clearly a non-sequitur. Jerry West wouldn’t have to go from a poor dribbler to an elite one. He’d need to go from an elite dribbler under one ruleset to an elite dribbler under a different ruleset. Even if you think poor dribblers almost never become elite dribblers, that is a different question. Jerry West was not allowed to dribble the way players dribble today, so we have no information that tells us that Jerry West is a poor dribbler under the current ruleset. You’re just speculating that that’s the case, based on your view that dribbling under the current rule set is harder (a very dubious premise, but we’ve already discussed that at length in the past, so I won’t belabor that point). But, by that logic, if we put Kyrie Irving in the 1960s and you’d never seen him play in the modern era, you’d have to conclude he would be a poor dribbler under the current ruleset too.

This is a distinction without value. West being 'elite' at bad dribbling is akin to telling me someone is an 'elite' crawler, and trying to extrapolate that to suggest they'll be elite at running too.

Kyrie can run, so obviously he can crawl. I don't need to see him crawl to know that, because it's a subset of running. If you can run you can crawl. Conversely, being able to shoot midrangers well is no guarantee you can shoot 3s well. It's a different skillset. Just ask Demar.

West's dribbling is poor by modern standards, so if you want to argue that he'd be elite at handling the ball today then you need to find examples of guys going from a bad handle to an elite one. That would be step one. Why West has a worse handle (i.e. because of rules at the time) is really irrelevant. As I've discussed before, this is about who is the best at basketball, not what is 'fair', though as I've also explained I think my approach is ultimately fairer too.

[Jaivl]

It's pretty clearly a Fosbury flop vs scissors jump situation to anybody with a pair of eyes.

[70sFan]

It's pretty clearly a Fosbury flop vs scissors jump situation to anybody with a pair of eyes.

With the difference that one era literally banned fosbury flop in this case.