2025 NBA Draft Discussion Part 6

[HumbleRen]

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[MEDIC]

I'm at the point where I can talk myself into any of the prospects in our range. The only exception is that I'd 100% pass on Jak and probably Kon as well.

That's where is am at. I am open to Kon though.

Jak is the only one.I want no part of.

[ciueli]

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They know it's mathematically possible for us to draft 11th, right?

[Clutch0z24]

His most likely outcome is a rim runner/shot blocker tho.....For Maluach to be a realiable 3 point shooter would take lots and lots of work....We are not talking about a Porzingis/Wemby Type here who came into the league already posessing shot making/3 point ability....

You can say he will one day be this and that like many people do but most of the time if you have to say "He can become this" They most likely never do....Especially if they don't show they can do it at the lower levels...

Maluach coming into the league will prolly be used the exact same way as Duke used him because atm thats where you will get the best from him.....Imo if you make him be anything more it will look ugly because he just does not have an offensive bag like that in games i watched....And yes i seen BAL and Olympics...He has not shot the ball enough in high sample sizes to show me he can do it especially at the NBA level.....Because i also seen videos of him air balling and hard rimming or clanking 3s as well....Which if he does that more often than not no NBA team is going to let him shoot them unless they are a tanking team.

Did Zinger and Wemby have a 3pt shot/3 point ability? The two seasons heading into the NBA, KP shot 33 and 31% and Wemby shot 26 and 27.5%.

I think both those guys would fall into the same place Maluach is: a 7+ footer who was not afraid to shoot the 3pt but poor %s. They worked themselves to the point they both currently are now. I don't see why an 18 year old who puts the work in can't succeed either. He'll have to put the work in though, no doubt, like A LOT.

Honestly, people are overthinking the 3pt shooting with KM. Like a guy like Edey it is a nice to have, but if we put KM on the perimeter too much it negate his best attribute, which is offensive rebounding. You just want to make defenses think a bit, but KM's value is gaining extra possessions.

Yeah i guess the reason the 3pt/offensive capabilities are being talked about because than you can question is a player like Maluach a rim running lob dunking big who has question marks on the scouting report about his hands, defensive rebounding, and does not have elite number of blocks for his size worth a risk with the top pick you tanked for?....Because you could prolly find a project like Maluach in other ways than using your high pick doing so...

Especially this is not a weak draft by any means and there will be legit talent still available where we are slotted to pick....For Maluach to be worth it he will have to develop that offensive bag that is so questionable or else your just drafting a back up C/Average starting C with the only high pick you will get in a while...We are not good enough as a team to come away with just a role player in this draft imo...

[Tha Cynic]

Just a random thought - The entire draft is built on giving teams that didn't do as well a bigger opportunity to draft better players and help them become better as a team overall. This is going to be mitigated as more and more players refuse to work out for certain teams.

The NBA needs to implement a rule that anyone who wants to be drafted has to work out for at least a certain amount of teams around their projected draft position. If not, you get withdrawn from the draft. It's a bit ridiculous that players can just say they won't workout for teams, and you now have marketing teams masquerading as NBA Player agents like Klutch making videos as the only way players can be evaluated during the summer.

[navyblue]

Just a random thought - The entire draft is built on giving teams that didn't do as well a bigger opportunity to draft better players and help them become better as a team overall. This is going to be mitigated as more and more players refuse to work out for certain teams.

The NBA needs to implement a rule that anyone who wants to be drafted has to work out for at least a certain amount of teams around their projected draft position. If not, you get withdrawn from the draft. It's a bit ridiculous that players can just say they won't workout for teams, and you now have marketing teams masquerading as NBA Player agents like Klutch making videos as the only way players can be evaluated during the summer.

Workouts are a nothing burger. Players usually don't work out for team that won't be in position of drafting them. Why waste the energy/risk working out?

And plus teams all the time draft players without workouts.

And to my knowledge NBA doesn't have limits on workouts. Teams can invite 100 players if they want, vs the NFL which has limit of 30 players in a 7 round draft.

NBA has made combine measurements , attendence, medical records necessary to be drafted, and that's enough imo.

[Indeed]

A good dribble drive "downhill" type player is useless without a 3 point shot though, that's the whole thing. And if it's a player who also doesn't play defence, that's another player whose value is capped, we already have that player in RJ Barrett. Good downhill driver who can get to the free throw line and even showing signs of being a great passer this past season, but inconsistent 3 point shooting and bad defence. We don't need another player like that and by 7-9 all the guys who show clear signs of being better than Barrett will be off the board.

You still need a downhill threat, particularly, 3 point shooting is inconsistent, and you are very unlikely to find a consistent movement shooter with defense, let alone multiple one just to replace a downhill threat.

Your offense should be versatile, having a downhill (plus PnR) threat and a movement shooter. Some teams with both combo guards would have been provided by each guard with downhill and movement shooting (Lowry & VanVleet back in our days). Defense is important, but you need more than one threat to score, even a box-and-one could shut down a lineup with only one offensive player.

We have more than one offensive threat that's why we traded for Ingram. We have a lot of offence from coming from IQ, Barrett, and Ingram next season, our big weakness is defence (none of those 3 are great defensive players), and 3 point shooting (neither Scottie nor Jak are 3 point shooters, Barrett is inconsistent). In the short term, those are the areas of improvement. Long term we already have Gradey and Ja'Kobe who show signs of being wing shot creators, I don't see why we need to spend yet another first round pick addressing it especially when all the best talent in that area will be off board by a 7-9 pick.

And I disagree that Barrett and Quickley have enough offense, where they dont as a Knicks. Adding Ingram would just be enough if Barnes does not improve his 3 point shooting.

As for long term, I dont see Dick getting much minutes, while Walter is at most having a pull up 3, but unlikely to be a top 3 option.

Defense is important, but at our stage trying to win again, I think it is best for us to draft someone who can create, and consolidate talent after. You are easier to acquire a scoring threat than a defensive player.

[ArthurVandelay]

His most likely outcome is a rim runner/shot blocker tho.....For Maluach to be a realiable 3 point shooter would take lots and lots of work....We are not talking about a Porzingis/Wemby Type here who came into the league already posessing shot making/3 point ability....

You can say he will one day be this and that like many people do but most of the time if you have to say "He can become this" They most likely never do....Especially if they don't show they can do it at the lower levels...

Maluach coming into the league will prolly be used the exact same way as Duke used him because atm thats where you will get the best from him.....Imo if you make him be anything more it will look ugly because he just does not have an offensive bag like that in games i watched....And yes i seen BAL and Olympics...He has not shot the ball enough in high sample sizes to show me he can do it especially at the NBA level.....Because i also seen videos of him air balling and hard rimming or clanking 3s as well....Which if he does that more often than not no NBA team is going to let him shoot them unless they are a tanking team.

Did Zinger and Wemby have a 3pt shot/3 point ability? The two seasons heading into the NBA, KP shot 33 and 31% and Wemby shot 26 and 27.5%.

I think both those guys would fall into the same place Maluach is: a 7+ footer who was not afraid to shoot the 3pt but poor %s. They worked themselves to the point they both currently are now. I don't see why an 18 year old who puts the work in can't succeed either. He'll have to put the work in though, no doubt, like A LOT.

Lmao don't do that....Just go back and watch more tape....Percentages don't tell the whole story buddy....You need to also look at the amount of 3s they took and made....Not just a percentage and then say "Well look they are the same style"....Its not even close....Maluach is no where near the shooter/offensive player these 2 showed during their euro days...You also have to look at mid range shooting as well because that is a translation to being able to shoot the 3....Maluach has not shot mid range shots or many 3s...

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I mean i would put Maluach highlight film but its all just lob dunks and hook shots 2 feet from the basket....No type of offensive moves compared to Kristaps/Wemby....That is why i said its not like Maluach shows any kind of skill on either Zingy/Wembys level not even close....Could he develop one day ....Thats the dream ....But at the end of the day its possible the dream is not reality.

All your points are fair…. buddy

Don’t forget Maluach is much more raw and inexperienced at 18 than either Wemby or Zinger.

I’ve said before no one is drafting Maluach for what he is today. He is the epitome of projection. I’m not going to pretend I know what his future holds. But if Raptors draft him I’m going to be excited as I do trust their judgement.

[Indeed]

Just a random thought - The entire draft is built on giving teams that didn't do as well a bigger opportunity to draft better players and help them become better as a team overall. This is going to be mitigated as more and more players refuse to work out for certain teams.

The NBA needs to implement a rule that anyone who wants to be drafted has to work out for at least a certain amount of teams around their projected draft position. If not, you get withdrawn from the draft. It's a bit ridiculous that players can just say they won't workout for teams, and you now have marketing teams masquerading as NBA Player agents like Klutch making videos as the only way players can be evaluated during the summer.

Workouts are a nothing burger. Players usually don't work out for team that won't be in position of drafting them. Why waste the energy/risk working out?

And plus teams all the time draft players without workouts.

And to my knowledge NBA doesn't have limits on workouts. Teams can invite 100 players if they want, vs the NFL which has limit of 30 players in a 7 round draft.

NBA has made combine measurements , attendence, medical records necessary to be drafted, and that's enough imo.

There is no reason to workout for teams outside of the draft position, and more importantly to prevent injury, which there were prospects got hurt and dropped their slots.

However, teams are more likely to pass on those they dont get workout with. Not true that they draft someone without work out with them. Even potential number one pick, they may pass the team to be drafted second, eg. Sarr

The catch is that, mock drafts are never accurate, and there could be trades, so this is up to the players and agent to decide which teams they do work out with (agent may reject nicely). However not attending draft combine should have some penalties.

[WuTang_CMB]

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[Indeed]

I'm at the point where I can talk myself into any of the prospects in our range. The only exception is that I'd 100% pass on Jak and probably Kon as well.

No, don't say no to Kon. I'd love a tough-minded - elite shooting - secondary playmaker like him. I see the overlap with Gradey, but he is a gamer.
Consider me a Kon-man!

If they think he can be a + defender at the 3, idk how he's not near the top of their list.

Sadly, his defense is worse than Dick.
Dick doesnt have the strength and lack foot speed, but he has good positioning. Knuepple has good strength, but he does not have foot speed and positioning.

Watched he defend at Duke, he was alright against college PF (unlikely the case in NBA), but he was worse in the perimeter, where he can get shake off.

[WuTang_CMB]

I don't know if it's BPM specifically. In fact I doubt it is, but there are definitely advanced metrics we follow and most of those will have correlations with BPM.

We are highly analytical. BPM is a big one for Masai and there are others like Jerry Lucas points out. Historically there’s only been a few players in lotto with poor BPM’s that have been good. We always draft for good BPM. JHS was a do not draft cuz his BPM was terrible. No surprise he’s already on his 3rd team.

BPM is a counting statistic, I assume they are looking at other stats they probably assigned their own values too that are quite heavily correlated with BPM, but I can't say for sure. I'm spitballing, but they may have things where steals and free throw rates both being above average get added bonuses to the overall metric, or they may factor in stats like effective box outs that are only available using paid analytic websites, which aren't factored into BPM. Regardless, BPM is highly correlated with other advanced stats so they will be using it indirectly even if they completely ignore it in favour of something else in their evaluations and will be impossible to tell without inside knowledge of their scouting.

We look at all the advanced stats when evaluating but BPM definitely has a lot of emphasis for us. Jamal Shead's insane DBPM for a guard had him higher on our boards than a lot of teams - I'm pretty sure on that.

[Thaddy]

Just a random thought - The entire draft is built on giving teams that didn't do as well a bigger opportunity to draft better players and help them become better as a team overall. This is going to be mitigated as more and more players refuse to work out for certain teams.

The NBA needs to implement a rule that anyone who wants to be drafted has to work out for at least a certain amount of teams around their projected draft position. If not, you get withdrawn from the draft. It's a bit ridiculous that players can just say they won't workout for teams, and you now have marketing teams masquerading as NBA Player agents like Klutch making videos as the only way players can be evaluated during the summer.

Bad teams are bad due to their management. We have the best scout in the league with Masai. The system is good for us.

I'm hoping a team takes VJ early, same thing with Bailey. I don't believe in them as prospects. If a team like the Wiz take either of these guys I would list them as busts pretty much immediately.

This would also mean a good prospect with a more likely outcome drops to our expected range. I have a feeling a guy who should be in the top 5 like Fears, Queen, or Maluach ends up being available at our pick. I'm hoping it's Maluach.

We don't need someone who needs the ball in their hands, we have too many cooks in the kitchen. Maluach's size would have gravity on offense and defense without holding the ball. We haven't had a good lob threat on our team since... I don't think we ever had one?

[Dalek]

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I loved that Zach Lowe leaked his front office/scout intel on Cedric Coward. I am a big believer. I did post this on April 22:

Last year my guy was Jaylon Tyson who just screamed being an NBA level player with nice shot creation skills and high level IQ. He is not playing a lot on the Cavs but he recently dropped 31 in extended minutes.

This year, depending on if he stays in the draft process, Cedric Coward is a strong target at 39 for me. He was having an elite season until he had a shoulder injury. He is both in the draft but keeping his college options open.

Big wing / 3 and D with playmaking
6'6 senior - age 21 started in Division 3 ball
56/40/84 shooting splits on good volume
Averaged 18/8/4 plus 2 blocks and 1 steal

.700 TS%
.500 FTR%
20.7 AST%
5.3 BLK%
1.4 STL%
12 TRB%

Watch on YouTube

[WuTang_CMB]

Just a random thought - The entire draft is built on giving teams that didn't do as well a bigger opportunity to draft better players and help them become better as a team overall. This is going to be mitigated as more and more players refuse to work out for certain teams.

The NBA needs to implement a rule that anyone who wants to be drafted has to work out for at least a certain amount of teams around their projected draft position. If not, you get withdrawn from the draft. It's a bit ridiculous that players can just say they won't workout for teams, and you now have marketing teams masquerading as NBA Player agents like Klutch making videos as the only way players can be evaluated during the summer.

I agree but it's probably an advantage for savvy front office's like Toronto who do so much work and preparation prior that they are comfortable with selecting a player even if they didn't work out. Latest example would be Jakobe. I can bet a lot of these front offices don't do as much as we do and although it happens I can bet theres a few teams that shy away.

[Basketball_Jones]

Highest odds to drop to 8th damnit that pisses me off.

[DreamTeam09]

Glad the KM talk is igniting, anyone who isn't a believer I'm definitely on the opposite side of that list. Really hope we are in a position to draft him, in my head it's a guarantee if he's on the board if we don't move up.
Heck at 4 I might even be tempted to trade back to select KM and another player.

Either way we are playing a waiting game untill the lottery is drawn

[Tha Cynic]

Just a random thought - The entire draft is built on giving teams that didn't do as well a bigger opportunity to draft better players and help them become better as a team overall. This is going to be mitigated as more and more players refuse to work out for certain teams.

The NBA needs to implement a rule that anyone who wants to be drafted has to work out for at least a certain amount of teams around their projected draft position. If not, you get withdrawn from the draft. It's a bit ridiculous that players can just say they won't workout for teams, and you now have marketing teams masquerading as NBA Player agents like Klutch making videos as the only way players can be evaluated during the summer.

Workouts are a nothing burger. Players usually don't work out for team that won't be in position of drafting them. Why waste the energy/risk working out?

And plus teams all the time draft players without workouts.

And to my knowledge NBA doesn't have limits on workouts. Teams can invite 100 players if they want, vs the NFL which has limit of 30 players in a 7 round draft.

NBA has made combine measurements , attendence, medical records necessary to be drafted, and that's enough imo.

The issue is that some players also don't work out for teams who are around their draft projections because they don't like that team. This isn't free agency. Every player should have a mandatory need to actually showcase their skills in a gym if a team is drafting them, and if they refuse, they should be punished for it. IMO.

Don't want to be drafted by a team? Fine, you can go back to college.

[Tha Cynic]

Just a random thought - The entire draft is built on giving teams that didn't do as well a bigger opportunity to draft better players and help them become better as a team overall. This is going to be mitigated as more and more players refuse to work out for certain teams.

The NBA needs to implement a rule that anyone who wants to be drafted has to work out for at least a certain amount of teams around their projected draft position. If not, you get withdrawn from the draft. It's a bit ridiculous that players can just say they won't workout for teams, and you now have marketing teams masquerading as NBA Player agents like Klutch making videos as the only way players can be evaluated during the summer.

I agree but it's probably an advantage for savvy front office's like Toronto who do so much work and preparation prior that they are comfortable with selecting a player even if they didn't work out. Latest example would be Jakobe. I can bet a lot of these front offices don't do as much as we do and although it happens I can bet theres a few teams that shy away.

Sure, but agents will also start telling more and more of their clients to not work out for specific teams in order to avoid them. It still puts teams at a disadvantage, even if it does help some teams who do extra work. Every team should have to do that extra work and not have advantages over others, by simply telling player not to work out for other teams.

[CoinTossRoss31]

Highest odds to drop to 8th damnit that pisses me off.

Exact same position as Barnes draft. If they dont call our name at 8 we are rolling up hopefully