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2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10

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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1281 » by twix2500 » Sat May 10, 2025 4:49 pm

VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
Absolutely disagree. The time to reset was right after LeBron left in 2014. Instead, Miami tried to stay competitive and locked themselves into years of mediocrity with bad contracts.

They should’ve done what Cleveland did, twice (it does work!!!).
When LeBron left in 2010, the Cavs tore it down, landed Kyrie, and built the foundation for his return. He came back and they won a title. When he left again in 2018, they didn’t chase fake competitiveness—they reset, drafted Garland and Mobley, used their assets to get Mitchell, and now they have a legit contender again.

Miami? They handed out bloated contracts, stayed fake competitive, and only got saved because Jimmy chose them—not because of smart planning.

If they’d reset in 2014—stockpiled picks, developed youth, preserved flexibility—they could’ve entered the Jimmy window with real assets and a foundation. Instead, it’s been 10 years of holding onto “culture” like it's a strategy, while jogging in place and constantly burning assets, applying patchwork to a sinking ship.

I wouldn't trade the Jimmy years for a full reset. Yeah eventually that's probably gonna happen anyways, it might even be what's needed now. But pointing to the Cavs or Wolves as teams it worked for is very selective memory, so many teams live for years in the draft and never get anything out of it.

Look at the 76ers, the only thing they ever got that really mattered was Embiid, who they're all but ready to chase out of town now. "The process" in most cases is just rolling the dice, because not only do you need to get lucky in the lottery, not only do you need to pick the right guy, you also need to get lucky in the right year, because some years the whole draft just sucks!


I’ll always see it different ways. I’m a very methodical guy, and for me, building through a proper reset, getting your cap in order, accumulating assets, and acquiring young talent through the draft or smart trades is the only real structured way to build a contender.

The top 4 teams in the NBA this year; Cleveland, OKC, Boston, and Houston, all have a core that came from a reset. It clearly works most of the time if done correctly, there are countless examples.

We’ll see what happens in the offseason. Still waiting for this FO to finally get something right, they’ve been wrong a lot lately.

Not extending Jimmy was the right move, but not having the foresight to handle his situation correctly is exactly the kind of thing you wouldn’t expect from an elite FO, which they haven’t been for a while.


Cleveland??? Houston just got knocked out of the first round by some old guys.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1282 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Sat May 10, 2025 4:57 pm

VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
Absolutely disagree. The time to reset was right after LeBron left in 2014. Instead, Miami tried to stay competitive and locked themselves into years of mediocrity with bad contracts.

They should’ve done what Cleveland did, twice (it does work!!!).
When LeBron left in 2010, the Cavs tore it down, landed Kyrie, and built the foundation for his return. He came back and they won a title. When he left again in 2018, they didn’t chase fake competitiveness—they reset, drafted Garland and Mobley, used their assets to get Mitchell, and now they have a legit contender again.

Miami? They handed out bloated contracts, stayed fake competitive, and only got saved because Jimmy chose them—not because of smart planning.

If they’d reset in 2014—stockpiled picks, developed youth, preserved flexibility—they could’ve entered the Jimmy window with real assets and a foundation. Instead, it’s been 10 years of holding onto “culture” like it's a strategy, while jogging in place and constantly burning assets, applying patchwork to a sinking ship.

I wouldn't trade the Jimmy years for a full reset. Yeah eventually that's probably gonna happen anyways, it might even be what's needed now. But pointing to the Cavs or Wolves as teams it worked for is very selective memory, so many teams live for years in the draft and never get anything out of it.

Look at the 76ers, the only thing they ever got that really mattered was Embiid, who they're all but ready to chase out of town now. "The process" in most cases is just rolling the dice, because not only do you need to get lucky in the lottery, not only do you need to pick the right guy, you also need to get lucky in the right year, because some years the whole draft just sucks!


I’ll always see it different ways. I’m a very methodical guy, and for me, building through a proper reset, getting your cap in order, accumulating assets, and acquiring young talent through the draft or smart trades is the only real structured way to build a contender.

The top 4 teams in the NBA this year; Cleveland, OKC, Boston, and Houston, all have a core that came from a reset. It clearly works most of the time if done correctly, there are countless examples.

We’ll see what happens in the offseason. Still waiting for this FO to finally get something right, they’ve been wrong a lot lately.

Not extending Jimmy was the right move, but not having the foresight to handle his situation correctly is exactly the kind of thing you wouldn’t expect from an elite FO, which they haven’t been for a while.

We can agree to disagree, but I'll just point out, if we go back and look at championships instead of contenders this season (most of whom will not win since only one per year can)...

Spoiler:
Boston: Agree, did it through the draft/reset, did get some sweetheart deals that aren't entirely realistic (Ainge) but still

Denver: Sort of, they basically just lucked out that Jokic became the best player in the world (almost anyone could have picked him before Denver), really have done little else with that roster and rely on him heavily

GSW: Sort of, again the best players (Curry/Draymond) weren't can't miss draft picks, other teams could have had them, and they picked up pieces along the way to surround them like Wiggins

Milwaukee: Sort of, lucked into Giannis, haven't done much to surround him with talent and that's continued

Lakers: LOL

Toronto: The ultimate mercenary chip, actually if we got KD this year and won it somehow it would feel a little similar

GSW: Again drafted Curry/Draymond in spots other teams could have had them, and Durant was obviously a mercenary signing

Cleveland: I'm not crediting the Cavs for sucking ass and LeBron deciding to go there to redeem his legacy after too many people got mad about him coming to Miami. Also they only really made one good pick, Kyrie, they had to turn Wiggins into Love, who still was arguably a disappointment in his time in Cleveland

Spurs: Sort of, the Spurs never had to suck to assemble this team besides the one tank season for Duncan where they blatantly sat David Robinson

Miami: Well we know this one wasn't a homegrown team, besides Wade, who took all of 1 lottery season to acquire

Lakers: Unless you want to credit LA for tanking one single season to get Kobe, in which he still forced his way there anyways, not homegrown

Boston: Same deal here, one bad season to get Pierce, then trade for a bunch of stars (and this time its McHale gifting his old team)


I can continue but that covers the last 15+ years of champions. To me the biggest common denominator isn't building up a huge stockpile of draftpicks and homegrown talent, it's getting really **** lucky in the right year/right draft and picking a superstar, even if it's not a #1 pick. Or somehow trading/acquiring that superstar through other means.

And that sucks, honestly, because it means a lot of it comes down to luck and getting that guy. And no matter how smart or methodical you are as a franchise, if you don't happen to pick a Jokic, or Duncan, or LeBron, or Giannis... none of it matters. But that's the reality of this league.

I will say, with the added emphasis on the 3-point shot, that creates more parity, and does leave room for more 2024 Boston style champions. We'll see if that trend continues this season.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1283 » by VaDe255 » Sat May 10, 2025 5:08 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:I wouldn't trade the Jimmy years for a full reset. Yeah eventually that's probably gonna happen anyways, it might even be what's needed now. But pointing to the Cavs or Wolves as teams it worked for is very selective memory, so many teams live for years in the draft and never get anything out of it.

Look at the 76ers, the only thing they ever got that really mattered was Embiid, who they're all but ready to chase out of town now. "The process" in most cases is just rolling the dice, because not only do you need to get lucky in the lottery, not only do you need to pick the right guy, you also need to get lucky in the right year, because some years the whole draft just sucks!


I’ll always see it different ways. I’m a very methodical guy, and for me, building through a proper reset, getting your cap in order, accumulating assets, and acquiring young talent through the draft or smart trades is the only real structured way to build a contender.

The top 4 teams in the NBA this year; Cleveland, OKC, Boston, and Houston, all have a core that came from a reset. It clearly works most of the time if done correctly, there are countless examples.

We’ll see what happens in the offseason. Still waiting for this FO to finally get something right, they’ve been wrong a lot lately.

Not extending Jimmy was the right move, but not having the foresight to handle his situation correctly is exactly the kind of thing you wouldn’t expect from an elite FO, which they haven’t been for a while.

We can agree to disagree, but I'll just point out, if we go back and look at championships instead of contenders this season (most of whom will not win since only one per year can)...

Spoiler:
Boston: Agree, did it through the draft/reset, did get some sweetheart deals that aren't entirely realistic (Ainge) but still

Denver: Sort of, they basically just lucked out that Jokic became the best player in the world (almost anyone could have picked him before Denver), really have done little else with that roster and rely on him heavily

GSW: Sort of, again the best players (Curry/Draymond) weren't can't miss draft picks, other teams could have had them, and they picked up pieces along the way to surround them like Wiggins

Milwaukee: Sort of, lucked into Giannis, haven't done much to surround him with talent and that's continued

Lakers: LOL

Toronto: The ultimate mercenary chip, actually if we got KD this year and won it somehow it would feel a little similar

GSW: Again drafted Curry/Draymond in spots other teams could have had them, and Durant was obviously a mercenary signing

Cleveland: I'm not crediting the Cavs for sucking ass and LeBron deciding to go there to redeem his legacy after too many people got mad about him coming to Miami. Also they only really made one good pick, Kyrie, they had to turn Wiggins into Love, who still was arguably a disappointment in his time in Cleveland

Spurs: Sort of, the Spurs never had to suck to assemble this team besides the one tank season for Duncan where they blatantly sat David Robinson

Miami: Well we know this one wasn't a homegrown team, besides Wade, who took all of 1 lottery season to acquire

Lakers: Unless you want to credit LA for tanking one single season to get Kobe, in which he still forced his way there anyways, not homegrown

Boston: Same deal here, one bad season to get Pierce, then trade for a bunch of stars (and this time its McHale gifting his old team)


I can continue but that covers the last 15+ years of champions. To me the biggest common denominator isn't building up a huge stockpile of draftpicks and homegrown talent, it's getting really **** lucky in the right year/right draft and picking a superstar, even if it's not a #1 pick. Or somehow trading/acquiring that superstar through other means.

And that sucks, honestly, because it means a lot of it comes down to luck and getting that guy. And no matter how smart or methodical you are as a franchise, if you don't happen to pick a Jokic, or Duncan, or LeBron, or Giannis... none of it matters. But that's the reality of this league.

I will say, with the added emphasis on the 3-point shot, that creates more parity, and does leave room for more 2024 Boston style champions. We'll see if that trend continues this season.


I don't think this is the argument you really want to make ;)

Spurs (multiple titles): – Drafted Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, built one of the greatest cores in history through the draft and international scouting.
Golden State (2015, 2017, 2018, 2022): Drafted Curry, Klay, Draymond, team that was built through the draft.
Milwaukee (2021) – Drafted Giannis, developed him into a superstar, built the roster around his strengths. The Jrue Holiday and Middleton pieces were crucial. Yep, they **** up after.
Denver (2023) – Drafted Jokic and Murray, built around them patiently. Was it lucky to get Jokic that late? Sure. But they also developed him and made smart team building moves that complemented him.
Boston (2024): Drafted Tatum and Brown and built a real contender around them through smart trades (White, Jrue, Porzingis).

Kind of crazy how many titles come from teams that drafted their guys or reset properly to have assets to add crucial pieces. It's as if this is how you build real contenders and teams that can turn into a dynasty.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1284 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Sat May 10, 2025 5:16 pm

VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
I’ll always see it different ways. I’m a very methodical guy, and for me, building through a proper reset, getting your cap in order, accumulating assets, and acquiring young talent through the draft or smart trades is the only real structured way to build a contender.

The top 4 teams in the NBA this year; Cleveland, OKC, Boston, and Houston, all have a core that came from a reset. It clearly works most of the time if done correctly, there are countless examples.

We’ll see what happens in the offseason. Still waiting for this FO to finally get something right, they’ve been wrong a lot lately.

Not extending Jimmy was the right move, but not having the foresight to handle his situation correctly is exactly the kind of thing you wouldn’t expect from an elite FO, which they haven’t been for a while.

We can agree to disagree, but I'll just point out, if we go back and look at championships instead of contenders this season (most of whom will not win since only one per year can)...

Spoiler:
Boston: Agree, did it through the draft/reset, did get some sweetheart deals that aren't entirely realistic (Ainge) but still

Denver: Sort of, they basically just lucked out that Jokic became the best player in the world (almost anyone could have picked him before Denver), really have done little else with that roster and rely on him heavily

GSW: Sort of, again the best players (Curry/Draymond) weren't can't miss draft picks, other teams could have had them, and they picked up pieces along the way to surround them like Wiggins

Milwaukee: Sort of, lucked into Giannis, haven't done much to surround him with talent and that's continued

Lakers: LOL

Toronto: The ultimate mercenary chip, actually if we got KD this year and won it somehow it would feel a little similar

GSW: Again drafted Curry/Draymond in spots other teams could have had them, and Durant was obviously a mercenary signing

Cleveland: I'm not crediting the Cavs for sucking ass and LeBron deciding to go there to redeem his legacy after too many people got mad about him coming to Miami. Also they only really made one good pick, Kyrie, they had to turn Wiggins into Love, who still was arguably a disappointment in his time in Cleveland

Spurs: Sort of, the Spurs never had to suck to assemble this team besides the one tank season for Duncan where they blatantly sat David Robinson

Miami: Well we know this one wasn't a homegrown team, besides Wade, who took all of 1 lottery season to acquire

Lakers: Unless you want to credit LA for tanking one single season to get Kobe, in which he still forced his way there anyways, not homegrown

Boston: Same deal here, one bad season to get Pierce, then trade for a bunch of stars (and this time its McHale gifting his old team)


I can continue but that covers the last 15+ years of champions. To me the biggest common denominator isn't building up a huge stockpile of draftpicks and homegrown talent, it's getting really **** lucky in the right year/right draft and picking a superstar, even if it's not a #1 pick. Or somehow trading/acquiring that superstar through other means.

And that sucks, honestly, because it means a lot of it comes down to luck and getting that guy. And no matter how smart or methodical you are as a franchise, if you don't happen to pick a Jokic, or Duncan, or LeBron, or Giannis... none of it matters. But that's the reality of this league.

I will say, with the added emphasis on the 3-point shot, that creates more parity, and does leave room for more 2024 Boston style champions. We'll see if that trend continues this season.


I don't think this is the argument you really want to make ;)

Spurs (multiple titles): – Drafted Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, built one of the greatest cores in history through the draft and international scouting.
Golden State (2015, 2017, 2018, 2022): Drafted Curry, Klay, Draymond, team that was built through the draft.
Milwaukee (2021) – Drafted Giannis, developed him into a superstar, built the roster around his strengths. The Jrue Holiday and Middleton pieces were crucial.
Denver (2023) – Drafted Jokic and Murray, built around them patiently. Was it lucky to get Jokic that late? Sure. But they also developed him and made smart team building moves that complemented him. Yep, they **** up after.
Boston (2024): Drafted Tatum and Brown and built a real contender around them through smart trades (White, Jrue, Porzingis).

Kind of crazy how many titles come from teams that drafted their guys or reset properly to have assets to add crucial pieces. It's as if this is how you build real contenders and teams that can turn into a dynasty.

No, I think you agree with me more than you think, but we're looking at it from different perspectives. You're saying "hey look they drafted these guys" but ignoring even our current roster, which is mostly guys we drafted. If we got lucky and picked the next Jokic in this draft, would you say that we built our team the same way Denver did, even if we don't even enter the lottery to do it? Herro/Bam is just as good Murray and anything else on the Nuggets roster.

Or similar, why can't we draft a Stephen Curry? He was a 7th pick, technically could have drafted him this year if we missed the playoffs, or it could be next year. Again, one bad season and boom.

Or Giannis? He was a #15 pick. Technically we could have picked him this year, if we still had our pick. Or could still get close to it, since we have the Warriors #20 pick.

Again, other than Boston, most of those teams are heavily reliant on superstars, and many of those superstars weren't even can't miss #1 picks that required years of the lottery to acquire. So I'm not really sure what you're suggesting here. We're already making smart draft picks, if you look at Bam/Herro, which are arguably as good as any of the secondary pieces to those championship squads, or Ware, who was already a heavy contributor his rookie season. All we're missing is "the guy", and there's no easy way to get "the guy" in the NBA, and just being really bad often doesn't matter if you aren't bad in the right year, and often times "the guy" isn't a #1 pick to begin with.

So I'll reiterate, unless the Boston model becomes the standard moving forward, I don't see what you're suggesting we need to do that's so different from those other teams. Unless it's get lucky and pick a superstar #7, or #15, #41 (Jokic)?
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1285 » by twix2500 » Sat May 10, 2025 5:17 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Reading some of these posts it feels like some of you saw enough of Tyler and checked out 2 years ago, because the descriptions do not match up to what I watched (most of) the last 2 seasons. Other than when he came back from injury last year, where I agree he was off and forcing things too much, he's otherwise been a different player. He hasn't chucked, he's arguably been around Jimmy's level in BBIQ, and I'd even argue some of Jimmy not getting more shots is due to him randomly deciding he's Ben Simmons now (Watch some GSW games) rather than Tyler stealing shots.

The truth is, offensively anyways, most of the problems with the current version of Herro stem to him being asked to do too much, which is a lack of overall offensive talent issue. Who else should be handling or creating shots, on the current roster? Davion brings the ball up plenty, but other than creating for himself he has zero court awareness. I like him but he can barely make a kickout pass, let alone anything more complex. Burks is a spot-up guy, Duncan is a spot-up guy, Wiggins can't pass, Pelle is a spot-up guy... the only other guy on the roster that can do anything besides spot-up or post-up is Terry Rozier, and we all know his issues. That's just guards/wings btw, Bam is solid but even then I don't want him as a full time creator either, his decision making is too slow and his handle isn't good enough. I would take more Bam isos if he'd be more decisive with his attacks, he lets the defense get set too often though which leads to them dictating the possession.

Defense is of course a different discussion, but you can hide guards on defense, it happens all the time, Warriors have been doing it with Steph his entire career.

Some of these takes sound like the stuff opposing teams fans were spewing to trash his value during the Dame trade saga, and some of you have internalized it and stopped watching the games or seen his progress. He is not the same player, and the numbers will bare that out as well. He is asked to do too much, but this version of Herro I can easily see stepping to the side if more offensive talent were added to the team. It's not that he's killing our offense, it's that somebody has to shoot or create the shots, and in fact I'd credit him that we weren't downright anemic last season (117 offensive rating on a team that was 113.5 and 21st in the league, easily could have been 30th without him).

I don't think Tyler or Bam are untouchable, though I prefer Bam if I had to keep one. But both are too harshly criticized for being asked to do too much, it's not their fault they have to go beyond what they're capable of. I don't think either guy is forcing it or stealing shots from anyone.

Also where the hell was this sort of energy when we had Beasley/Dorell/Justise lol, now those were busts deserving of this level of criticism.
Herro is still chucking. They are just going in more often.

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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1286 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Sat May 10, 2025 5:20 pm

twix2500 wrote:Herro is still chucking. They are just going in more often.

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If you're efficient is it still chucking? And his assists also went up while his turnovers went down. Disagree, I don't think he's perfect but there's definite growth. He's clearly not good enough to carry an offense, but he looks like a guy who can play next to a better creator now and I didn't used to feel that way.

I'll concede until it actually happens though, we can't say for sure. And I'm not thrilled about extending him yet either. But to me he's earned the chance to prove himself at the very least on a better team.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1287 » by VaDe255 » Sat May 10, 2025 5:32 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:We can agree to disagree, but I'll just point out, if we go back and look at championships instead of contenders this season (most of whom will not win since only one per year can)...

Spoiler:
Boston: Agree, did it through the draft/reset, did get some sweetheart deals that aren't entirely realistic (Ainge) but still

Denver: Sort of, they basically just lucked out that Jokic became the best player in the world (almost anyone could have picked him before Denver), really have done little else with that roster and rely on him heavily

GSW: Sort of, again the best players (Curry/Draymond) weren't can't miss draft picks, other teams could have had them, and they picked up pieces along the way to surround them like Wiggins

Milwaukee: Sort of, lucked into Giannis, haven't done much to surround him with talent and that's continued

Lakers: LOL

Toronto: The ultimate mercenary chip, actually if we got KD this year and won it somehow it would feel a little similar

GSW: Again drafted Curry/Draymond in spots other teams could have had them, and Durant was obviously a mercenary signing

Cleveland: I'm not crediting the Cavs for sucking ass and LeBron deciding to go there to redeem his legacy after too many people got mad about him coming to Miami. Also they only really made one good pick, Kyrie, they had to turn Wiggins into Love, who still was arguably a disappointment in his time in Cleveland

Spurs: Sort of, the Spurs never had to suck to assemble this team besides the one tank season for Duncan where they blatantly sat David Robinson

Miami: Well we know this one wasn't a homegrown team, besides Wade, who took all of 1 lottery season to acquire

Lakers: Unless you want to credit LA for tanking one single season to get Kobe, in which he still forced his way there anyways, not homegrown

Boston: Same deal here, one bad season to get Pierce, then trade for a bunch of stars (and this time its McHale gifting his old team)


I can continue but that covers the last 15+ years of champions. To me the biggest common denominator isn't building up a huge stockpile of draftpicks and homegrown talent, it's getting really **** lucky in the right year/right draft and picking a superstar, even if it's not a #1 pick. Or somehow trading/acquiring that superstar through other means.

And that sucks, honestly, because it means a lot of it comes down to luck and getting that guy. And no matter how smart or methodical you are as a franchise, if you don't happen to pick a Jokic, or Duncan, or LeBron, or Giannis... none of it matters. But that's the reality of this league.

I will say, with the added emphasis on the 3-point shot, that creates more parity, and does leave room for more 2024 Boston style champions. We'll see if that trend continues this season.


I don't think this is the argument you really want to make ;)

Spurs (multiple titles): – Drafted Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, built one of the greatest cores in history through the draft and international scouting.
Golden State (2015, 2017, 2018, 2022): Drafted Curry, Klay, Draymond, team that was built through the draft.
Milwaukee (2021) – Drafted Giannis, developed him into a superstar, built the roster around his strengths. The Jrue Holiday and Middleton pieces were crucial.
Denver (2023) – Drafted Jokic and Murray, built around them patiently. Was it lucky to get Jokic that late? Sure. But they also developed him and made smart team building moves that complemented him. Yep, they **** up after.
Boston (2024): Drafted Tatum and Brown and built a real contender around them through smart trades (White, Jrue, Porzingis).

Kind of crazy how many titles come from teams that drafted their guys or reset properly to have assets to add crucial pieces. It's as if this is how you build real contenders and teams that can turn into a dynasty.

No, I think you agree with me more than you think, but we're looking at it from different perspectives. You're saying "hey look they drafted these guys" but ignoring even our current roster, which is mostly guys we drafted. If we got lucky and picked the next Jokic in this draft, would you say that we built our team the same way Denver did, even if we don't even enter the lottery to do it? Herro/Bam is just as good Murray and anything else on the Nuggets roster.

Or similar, why can't we draft a Stephen Curry? He was a 7th pick, technically could have drafted him this year if we missed the playoffs, or it could be next year. Again, one bad season and boom.

Or Giannis? He was a #15 pick. Technically we could have picked him this year, if we still had our pick. Or could still get close to it, since we have the Warriors #20 pick.

Again, other than Boston, most of those teams are heavily reliant on superstars, and many of those superstars weren't even can't miss #1 picks that required years of the lottery to acquire. So I'm not really sure what you're suggesting here. We're already making smart draft picks, if you look at Bam/Herro, which are arguably as good as any of the secondary pieces to those championship squads, or Ware, who was already a heavy contributor his rookie season. All we're missing is "the guy", and there's no easy way to get "the guy" in the NBA, and just being really bad often doesn't matter if you aren't bad in the right year, and often times "the guy" isn't a #1 pick to begin with.

So I'll reiterate, unless the Boston model becomes the standard moving forward, I don't see what you're suggesting we need to do that's so different from those other teams. Unless it's get lucky and pick a superstar #7, or #15, #41 (Jokic)?


The point isn't that tanking guarantees a star, it's that a proper reset gives a methodical way to get one. Drafting higher and more, obviously increases your chances to get a top-10 player. Even if you only draft solid guys like Herro/Bam, you still end up with young talent on rookie deals, more cap flexibility, and assets to trade when the right star becomes available, exactly like Cleveland did when they had Garland/Mobley.

That’s how you build a real foundation.

The problem with Miami is they never committed to that. If they had reset properly, they could be in great shape right now with guys from the lottery like Bam/Herro/Ware (or they could have hit big and got an Ant like guy) on the same timeline with manageable contracts, with picks in the bank and cap flexibility, to get a top 10 guy.

That is really the difference, their pick situation isn't ideal, they have a bunch of undesirable contracts and Bam is on a max already, while Tyler is about to get a big extension and Ware is not on the same timeline.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1288 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Sat May 10, 2025 5:40 pm

Phoneposting so can’t properly format reply for a few hours but I’ll just say I don’t agree that there is a “methodical” way to draft a superstar. I don’t think there was anything methodical about how those teams got Curry, Jokic or Giannis, I think the lions share of the credit goes towards player development, the work ethic of those individual players, and divine luck.

I’ll continue to add though, Boston is an example of winning through sheer number of high draft picks and if they or more teams like them become the norm, I’d be swayed. But that’s the only team that I really see as doing it through sheer volume like that.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1289 » by twix2500 » Sat May 10, 2025 6:02 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
twix2500 wrote:Herro is still chucking. They are just going in more often.

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If you're efficient is it still chucking? And his assists also went up while his turnovers went down. Disagree, I don't think he's perfect but there's definite growth. He's clearly not good enough to carry an offense, but he looks like a guy who can play next to a better creator now and I didn't used to feel that way.

I'll concede until it actually happens though, we can't say for sure. And I'm not thrilled about extending him yet either. But to me he's earned the chance to prove himself at the very least on a better team.


Yes, chucking has never been described by the shot going in or not.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1290 » by twix2500 » Sat May 10, 2025 6:20 pm

VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
I’ll always see it different ways. I’m a very methodical guy, and for me, building through a proper reset, getting your cap in order, accumulating assets, and acquiring young talent through the draft or smart trades is the only real structured way to build a contender.

The top 4 teams in the NBA this year; Cleveland, OKC, Boston, and Houston, all have a core that came from a reset. It clearly works most of the time if done correctly, there are countless examples.

We’ll see what happens in the offseason. Still waiting for this FO to finally get something right, they’ve been wrong a lot lately.

Not extending Jimmy was the right move, but not having the foresight to handle his situation correctly is exactly the kind of thing you wouldn’t expect from an elite FO, which they haven’t been for a while.

We can agree to disagree, but I'll just point out, if we go back and look at championships instead of contenders this season (most of whom will not win since only one per year can)...

Spoiler:
Boston: Agree, did it through the draft/reset, did get some sweetheart deals that aren't entirely realistic (Ainge) but still

Denver: Sort of, they basically just lucked out that Jokic became the best player in the world (almost anyone could have picked him before Denver), really have done little else with that roster and rely on him heavily

GSW: Sort of, again the best players (Curry/Draymond) weren't can't miss draft picks, other teams could have had them, and they picked up pieces along the way to surround them like Wiggins

Milwaukee: Sort of, lucked into Giannis, haven't done much to surround him with talent and that's continued

Lakers: LOL

Toronto: The ultimate mercenary chip, actually if we got KD this year and won it somehow it would feel a little similar

GSW: Again drafted Curry/Draymond in spots other teams could have had them, and Durant was obviously a mercenary signing

Cleveland: I'm not crediting the Cavs for sucking ass and LeBron deciding to go there to redeem his legacy after too many people got mad about him coming to Miami. Also they only really made one good pick, Kyrie, they had to turn Wiggins into Love, who still was arguably a disappointment in his time in Cleveland

Spurs: Sort of, the Spurs never had to suck to assemble this team besides the one tank season for Duncan where they blatantly sat David Robinson

Miami: Well we know this one wasn't a homegrown team, besides Wade, who took all of 1 lottery season to acquire

Lakers: Unless you want to credit LA for tanking one single season to get Kobe, in which he still forced his way there anyways, not homegrown

Boston: Same deal here, one bad season to get Pierce, then trade for a bunch of stars (and this time its McHale gifting his old team)


I can continue but that covers the last 15+ years of champions. To me the biggest common denominator isn't building up a huge stockpile of draftpicks and homegrown talent, it's getting really **** lucky in the right year/right draft and picking a superstar, even if it's not a #1 pick. Or somehow trading/acquiring that superstar through other means.

And that sucks, honestly, because it means a lot of it comes down to luck and getting that guy. And no matter how smart or methodical you are as a franchise, if you don't happen to pick a Jokic, or Duncan, or LeBron, or Giannis... none of it matters. But that's the reality of this league.

I will say, with the added emphasis on the 3-point shot, that creates more parity, and does leave room for more 2024 Boston style champions. We'll see if that trend continues this season.


I don't think this is the argument you really want to make ;)

Spurs (multiple titles): – Drafted Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, built one of the greatest cores in history through the draft and international scouting.
Spoiler:
Golden State (2015, 2017, 2018, 2022): Drafted Curry, Klay, Draymond, team that was built through the draft.
Milwaukee (2021) – Drafted Giannis, developed him into a superstar, built the roster around his strengths. The Jrue Holiday and Middleton pieces were crucial. Yep, they **** up after.
Denver (2023) – Drafted Jokic and Murray, built around them patiently. Was it lucky to get Jokic that late? Sure. But they also developed him and made smart team building moves that complemented him.
Boston (2024): Drafted Tatum and Brown and built a real contender around them through smart trades (White, Jrue, Porzingis).

Kind of crazy how many titles come from teams that drafted their guys or reset properly to have assets to add crucial pieces. It's as if this is how you build real contenders and teams that can turn into a dynasty.


David Robinson hurt his back and then broke his foot later that same year. They were a title contending team that year built around Robinson. They acquired Dominique Wilkins that summer to help make a run. The following year they were still contenders after drafting Duncan with a twin tower frontcourt of Robinson and Duncan with Elliot and Avery Johnson full of title contending vets. Ginobli was the 57th pick of his draft on to a contending team. Tony Parker was draft 28th to the contending spurs team full of veterans. The Spurs teams was already built, they was just adding a player throughout the years.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1291 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat May 10, 2025 6:38 pm

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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1292 » by BadMofoPimp » Sat May 10, 2025 6:44 pm

VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
Absolutely disagree. The time to reset was right after LeBron left in 2014. Instead, Miami tried to stay competitive and locked themselves into years of mediocrity with bad contracts.

They should’ve done what Cleveland did, twice (it does work!!!).
When LeBron left in 2010, the Cavs tore it down, landed Kyrie, and built the foundation for his return. He came back and they won a title. When he left again in 2018, they didn’t chase fake competitiveness—they reset, drafted Garland and Mobley, used their assets to get Mitchell, and now they have a legit contender again.

Miami? They handed out bloated contracts, stayed fake competitive, and only got saved because Jimmy chose them—not because of smart planning.

If they’d reset in 2014—stockpiled picks, developed youth, preserved flexibility—they could’ve entered the Jimmy window with real assets and a foundation. Instead, it’s been 10 years of holding onto “culture” like it's a strategy, while jogging in place and constantly burning assets, applying patchwork to a sinking ship.

I wouldn't trade the Jimmy years for a full reset. Yeah eventually that's probably gonna happen anyways, it might even be what's needed now. But pointing to the Cavs or Wolves as teams it worked for is very selective memory, so many teams live for years in the draft and never get anything out of it.

Look at the 76ers, the only thing they ever got that really mattered was Embiid, who they're all but ready to chase out of town now. "The process" in most cases is just rolling the dice, because not only do you need to get lucky in the lottery, not only do you need to pick the right guy, you also need to get lucky in the right year, because some years the whole draft just sucks!


I’ll always see it different ways. I’m a very methodical guy, and for me, building through a proper reset, getting your cap in order, accumulating assets, and acquiring young talent through the draft or smart trades is the only real structured way to build a contender.

The top 4 teams in the NBA this year; Cleveland, OKC, Boston, and Houston, all have a core that came from a reset. It clearly works most of the time if done correctly, there are countless examples.

We’ll see what happens in the offseason. Still waiting for this FO to finally get something right, they’ve been wrong a lot lately.

Not extending Jimmy was the right move, but not having the foresight to handle his situation correctly is exactly the kind of thing you wouldn’t expect from an elite FO, which they haven’t been for a while.


I disagree. Ships are not won most of the time via resets. Lakers, Warriors, Bucks and Nuggets prove that. Tanking for a top 5 pick rarely leads to ships. It can help many teams but is never a guarantee. More than half the time, teams pick an average player and end up losers for over a decade.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1293 » by MettaWorldPanda » Sat May 10, 2025 7:10 pm

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But but but KD don’t want to come here lol
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1294 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat May 10, 2025 7:20 pm

I just don’t like the tear it down mindset when we were so close to winning it all 3 times recently. 2 of the times were basically Jimmy/Bam and a bunch of undrafted guys.

I feel like with some solid vet minimum signings to build a better supporting cast than we had (needs to include a playmaker), trading for a KD/Ja/Trae/Zion/etc., the addition of Tyler who has improved (if he can carry it over to the postseason), a more versatile scoring Bam who can spread the floor now, etc. shouldn’t that offset the loss of Jimmy and then some?

I get that you can just force a big trade like that and it’s a big ask but if we can get it done and make some home run signings we’re right back in the mix. I have a feeling our guys are going to bust their asses to get better this summer and this might be the summer Pat Riley reminds everyone who the fuxk he is.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1295 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat May 10, 2025 7:22 pm

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But but but KD don’t want to come here lol


I haven’t felt so good about something getting done since Mitchell leaving Utah or Dame :cry:

3rd times a charm. This just seems like it’s pretty much done and has been on the back burner waiting to happen since the deadline.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1296 » by Shewasfly » Sat May 10, 2025 7:55 pm

Tyler has never been the first option on this team until this year. Y'all just get on here and lie for the sake of lying lol. Taking the most shots =/= being the first option.

I think having a personal dislike/hatred for Tyler for whatever reason or another is fair enough. Especially since when that's known people now know to take your opinion on things concerning him with a grain of salt. But no need to distort the truth to bolster your dislike for reasons that don't exist.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1297 » by MettaWorldPanda » Sat May 10, 2025 8:09 pm

3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
MettaWorldPanda wrote:
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But but but KD don’t want to come here lol


I haven’t felt so good about something getting done since Mitchell leaving Utah or Dame :cry:

3rd times a charm. This just seems like it’s pretty much done and has been on the back burner waiting to happen since the deadline.

Never felt good about Mitchell or Dame but KD this go around seems different. Maybe because we have the right pieces for an aging star.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1298 » by MettaWorldPanda » Sat May 10, 2025 8:16 pm

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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1299 » by jbsays » Sat May 10, 2025 8:17 pm

VaDe255 wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
Absolutely disagree. The time to reset was right after LeBron left in 2014. Instead, Miami tried to stay competitive and locked themselves into years of mediocrity with bad contracts.

They should’ve done what Cleveland did, twice (it does work!!!).
When LeBron left in 2010, the Cavs tore it down, landed Kyrie, and built the foundation for his return. He came back and they won a title. When he left again in 2018, they didn’t chase fake competitiveness—they reset, drafted Garland and Mobley, used their assets to get Mitchell, and now they have a legit contender again.

Miami? They handed out bloated contracts, stayed fake competitive, and only got saved because Jimmy chose them—not because of smart planning.

If they’d reset in 2014—stockpiled picks, developed youth, preserved flexibility—they could’ve entered the Jimmy window with real assets and a foundation. Instead, it’s been 10 years of holding onto “culture” like it's a strategy, while jogging in place and constantly burning assets, applying patchwork to a sinking ship.

I wouldn't trade the Jimmy years for a full reset. Yeah eventually that's probably gonna happen anyways, it might even be what's needed now. But pointing to the Cavs or Wolves as teams it worked for is very selective memory, so many teams live for years in the draft and never get anything out of it.

Look at the 76ers, the only thing they ever got that really mattered was Embiid, who they're all but ready to chase out of town now. "The process" in most cases is just rolling the dice, because not only do you need to get lucky in the lottery, not only do you need to pick the right guy, you also need to get lucky in the right year, because some years the whole draft just sucks!


I’ll always see it different ways. I’m a very methodical guy, and for me, building through a proper reset, getting your cap in order, accumulating assets, and acquiring young talent through the draft or smart trades is the only real structured way to build a contender.

The top 4 teams in the NBA this year; Cleveland, OKC, Boston, and Houston, all have a core that came from a reset. It clearly works most of the time if done correctly, there are countless examples.

We’ll see what happens in the offseason. Still waiting for this FO to finally get something right, they’ve been wrong a lot lately.

Not extending Jimmy was the right move, but not having the foresight to handle his situation correctly is exactly the kind of thing you wouldn’t expect from an elite FO, which they haven’t been for a while.


Cavs got Mitchell by trade.
Thunder got SGA by trade.
After Taytum and Brown Celtics got Holiday, KP, and White by trade.
Rockets still have to get out of the first round.

If you added Mitchel, SGA, or the trio of Holliday, KP, and White next to Bam and Herro the Heat would look a lot different.
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Re: 2025 Regular/Offseason Season Thread Vol. 10 

Post#1300 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Sat May 10, 2025 8:32 pm

3ammy3uck3ts wrote:I just don’t like the tear it down mindset when we were so close to winning it all 3 times recently. 2 of the times were basically Jimmy/Bam and a bunch of undrafted guys.

I feel like with some solid vet minimum signings to build a better supporting cast than we had (needs to include a playmaker), trading for a KD/Ja/Trae/Zion/etc., the addition of Tyler who has improved (if he can carry it over to the postseason), a more versatile scoring Bam who can spread the floor now, etc. shouldn’t that offset the loss of Jimmy and then some?

I get that you can just force a big trade like that and it’s a big ask but if we can get it done and make some home run signings we’re right back in the mix. I have a feeling our guys are going to bust their asses to get better this summer and this might be the summer Pat Riley reminds everyone who the fuxk he is.

I don't think it has to be so black/white, all or nothing. But if I had to compare this to the last 3 times we did a restart...

The first was the end of the Zo/Timmy build. That one, it was already a borderline squad that had only gotten as far as the ECF. We didn't even know if Zo could be the guy on a championship team. We tried to push it one year longer, that didn't work, then it was torn down for a tank. That lead to Wade.

Second was the Wade/Shaq team. We tore that one down, but we had a clear target in mind, 2010 free agency, and we already had our franchise guy who we knew could lead us to a chip in Wade. So it was sort of a pseudo tank, tank one year, try to win without sacrificing flexibility, then go all in for 2010.

Third was the departure of LeBron. In that case, we still had Wade/Bosh, so it felt right to at least try to win with that group.

The question I guess is, since we definitely do not have anyone on the roster comparable to prime Wade... is Herro/Bam closer to post kidney disease Zo and EJ? Or declined Wade/Bosh? If you think its the former, you probably need more than a KD to get back to competing, and you're just spinning your wheels (unless he comes almost free of course). If its the latter, maybe you do think a KD can be that piece that gets them over the hump.

Personally I'm not that enamored with Tyler/Bam... I think they're nice pieces, but not "just go get a KD and we got this" nice. Unless, again, he comes almost free. But if the price tag included, say, Ware and a 1st, I'd pass.

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