RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[DOT]

Wow 6 straight titles?

That's really impressive to win 6 titles in 6 straight years.

[MavsDirk41]

"Jordan is obviously inferior as an individual player, so let me now equate him with his teams"

Again. This isn't rocket science. It's subtraction:




"Jordan cannot carry weak teams to 60-wins, like Lebron did, twice, and this makes him better"



Kind of irrelevant when the 1 all-star team wins 55 (58-win pace with their best player) when healthy and then gets better in the playoffs. You do understand media votes aren't as important as wins?


No he was just outplayed by the opponents best player in the conference finals...and carried by a team that was a threat to 4-peat when he left.



I think you meant to say highest scoring. Jordan was not his team's best player during the 93 ECF. Selfishly (and inefficiently) trying to shoot the Bulls out of the series included.


Trading draft picks to help otherwise helpless franchises to win champoinships? Bad.

Trading your most talented teammate and crushing the confidence of the lottery pick you selected because he took too many shots? Good.



To be clear, this is how he thought about these things in his prime too:


A stat-padder through and through.

Lol between those years thats 755 games Jordan played with the Bulls. They were 553-202 which is a 73% win rate. Did you know Jordan missed 7 of t

Lebron averaged more games and minutes in his first 15 regular seasons than Jordan did in 13, Try again Dirky,

Lol Jordan broke his foot in his second season and only played 17 games and retired after the 92/93 season

Jordan played 82 regular season games 9 times
James has played 82 regular season games 1 time

Jordan was 7-2 against 60 win teams in the playoffs
James is 3-5 against 60 win teams in the playoffs
Jordan never lost a playoff series when having homecourt advantage
James has 3 times
Jordan has a higher regular season and playoff winning percentage.

You can prefer whoever you want but im just presenting facts that you yourself can google. Dirky lol? Frustrated kid?

[MavsDirk41]

"Man Lebron won a title no version of Jordan would have a hope of winning. Why didn't he win an even harder one?"

Again unfortunately for you there is a difference between what actually did occur in this reality and whatever you might like to decide hypothetically.

What "actually did happen"

2015 Cavs WITH Lebron
50-19 with, 59-win pace, +7.9 Net
(3-10 without)

2016 Cavs WITH Lebron
56-20 with, 60-win pace, +7.6 Net
(1-3 without)


2017 Cavs WITH Lebron
51-23 with, 56-win pace, +5.4 Net
(0-8 without)

"Whatever you might like to decide hypothetically" is Jordan being a better "ceiling raiser"

You should figure out what words mean before you use them.

Did you try to say the 2010 Cavs were the greatest team ever in another thread? Lol what??

[Djoker]

+7 Net with Lebron ON is not impressive at all in the context of GOAT ceiling raising.

The 1991-1998 Bulls when Jordan played averaged a +10.2 Net Rating and that's over a span of 503 games. The high points with Jordan on are +9.5 Net in 1991, +11.7 in 1992, +13.4 in 1996 and +12.0 in 1997.

[AlexanderRight]

Time for a reality check...






In B4 "DATS CHERRY PICKING!!"

[ScrantonBulls]

Time for a reality check...






In B4 "DATS CHERRY PICKING!!"

No offense Alexander, but your post perfectly encapsulates why this debate is one that is dominated by casual fans, and MJ is the winner in the minds of casual fans who don't have a deep understanding of the game. LeBron is typically the winner when you ask those with a deep understanding of the game.

Just a few examples. Why are we looking at all-star appearances instead of All-NBA? All-star is voted heavily by fans (lol) and doesn't even encapsulate and entire season. It's more of a popularury contest. Looking at all-star appearances instead of all-NBA is something you'd expect out of a casual fan.

Comparing the win totals of teams during the watered down expansion era versus the era with an explosion of international talent and the most talent ever? Again, a casual wouldn't know about the expansion era and how truly awful some teams were. Also, the 17-18 Warriors won 58 games, but we're easily better than any finals team MJ ever faced. The casuals wouldnt know that the team dealt with injuries or related players for the playoffs. Blindly comparing the win total of finals opponents? That's some casual level analysis.

Top 5 picks? That's especially bad analysis. I think even casuals would know that, but maybe not? Maybe they think a top 5 pick is automatically a great player. A casual fan would be more likely to think that than a well-versed NBA fan.

There's plenty of other examples from that graphic too. It's why you see things like this shared on Instagram. Casual fans and people who know nothing about the game eat this stuff up.

[AlexanderRight]

Just a few examples. Why are we looking at all-star appearances instead of All-NBA? All-star is voted heavily by fans (lol) and doesn't even encapsulate and entire season. It's more of a popularury contest. Looking at all-star appearances instead of all-NBA is something you'd expect out of a casual fan.

Number of times a teammate made All NBA WITH MJ - Scottie Pippen - 5 times
TOTAL 5 Times

Number of teammates that made All NBA WITH LBJ -
Wade - 3 times
Kyrie - 1 time
AD - 2 times
TOTAL 6 Times

Number of times someone made the All Star team with MJ - 1 player for 6 times
Number of times someone made the All Star team with LBJ -7 different players for 17 times

I am aware that Pippen has more ALL Defensive selections playing with Jordan than any of LBJ's teammates but to pretend that that fact is more important than the two facts I just gave you would be to pretend that Pippen by himself during his time with MJ had more impact than Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD/Luka when you combine all their time with Lebron together. And that would just be homerism.

Comparing the win totals of teams during the watered down expansion era versus the era with an explosion of international talent and the most talent ever? Again, a casual wouldn't know about the expansion era and how truly awful some teams were. Also, the 17-18 Warriors won 58 games, but we're easily better than any finals team MJ ever faced. The casuals wouldnt know that the team dealt with injuries or related players for the playoffs. Blindly comparing the win total of finals opponents? That's some casual level analysis.

Ah, so win totals matter when talking about the 55 win season the Bulls had after MJ left, but doesn't matter when talking about the wins other teams had when facing MJ? You see the blatant hypocrisy there? Today's players are better when talking about who Lebron faced but aren't better when talking about the 7 different All Stars LBJ played with for a total of 17 different seasons off All Star caliber play he's had next to him. You see the hypocrisy? When Lebron wins with a Super Team, it counts, but when he loses to one, it doesn't count. You see where I'm going...

And what you're touching on is an entirely different discussion. Even if I conceded that today's teams are better, that doesn't automatically make Lebron a better player. What you're suggesting is that the league overall had better play or more better teams, which is a fair comparison but that's not an argument for one individual player being better than someone else. Maybe you could push that if Lebron spent the majority of his teams on lottery teams with no help at all but he hasn't. He's benefited from the Super team era and "explosion of talent" as much as anyone. The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.

Top 5 picks? That's especially bad analysis. I think even casuals would know that, but maybe not? Maybe they think a top 5 pick is automatically a great player. A casual fan would be more likely to think that than a well-versed NBA fan.

Of course lottery picks bust. That stat just shows that Lebron has had way more bites out of the apple. He's played with 25 more top 5 picks so you can't say the opportunity wasn't there. He's had more veteran all star caliber play next to him as I've just explained to you so you can't say they were all busts. He's already had more All NBA selections next to him and assuming him and Luka stick together, that gap with continue to grow.

[ScrantonBulls]

Just a few examples. Why are we looking at all-star appearances instead of All-NBA? All-star is voted heavily by fans (lol) and doesn't even encapsulate and entire season. It's more of a popularury contest. Looking at all-star appearances instead of all-NBA is something you'd expect out of a casual fan.

Number of times a teammate made All NBA WITH MJ - Scottie Pippen - 5 times
TOTAL 5 Times

Number of teammates that made All NBA WITH LBJ -
Wade - 3 times
Kyrie - 1 time
AD - 2 times
TOTAL 6 Times

Number of times someone made the All Star team with MJ - 1 player for 6 times
Number of times someone made the All Star team with LBJ -7 different players for 17 times

I am aware that Pippen has more ALL Defensive selections playing with Jordan than any of LBJ's teammates but to pretend that that fact is more important than the two facts I just gave you would be to pretend that Pippen by himself during his time with MJ had more impact than Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD/Luka when you combine all their time with Lebron together. And that would just be homerism.

Comparing the win totals of teams during the watered down expansion era versus the era with an explosion of international talent and the most talent ever? Again, a casual wouldn't know about the expansion era and how truly awful some teams were. Also, the 17-18 Warriors won 58 games, but we're easily better than any finals team MJ ever faced. The casuals wouldnt know that the team dealt with injuries or related players for the playoffs. Blindly comparing the win total of finals opponents? That's some casual level analysis.

Ah, so win totals matter when talking about the 55 win season the Bulls had after MJ left, but doesn't matter when talking about the wins other teams had when facing MJ? You see the blatant hypocrisy there? Today's players are better when talking about who Lebron faced but aren't better when talking about the 7 different All Stars LBJ played with for a total of 17 different seasons off All Star caliber play he's had next to him. You see the hypocrisy? When Lebron wins with a Super Team, it counts, but when he loses to one, it doesn't count. You see where I'm going...

And what you're touching on is an entirely different discussion. Even if I conceded that today's teams are better, that doesn't automatically make Lebron a better player. What you're suggesting is that the league overall had better play or more better teams, which is a fair comparison but that's not an argument for one individual player being better than someone else. Maybe you could push that if Lebron spent the majority of his teams on lottery teams with no help at all but he hasn't. He's benefited from the Super team era and "explosion of talent" as much as anyone. The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.

Top 5 picks? That's especially bad analysis. I think even casuals would know that, but maybe not? Maybe they think a top 5 pick is automatically a great player. A casual fan would be more likely to think that than a well-versed NBA fan.

Of course lottery picks bust. That stat just shows that Lebron has had way more bites out of the apple. He's played with 25 more top 5 picks so you can't say the opportunity wasn't there. He's had more veteran all star caliber play next to him as I've just explained to you so you can't say they were all busts. He's already had more All NBA selections next to him and assuming him and Luka stick together, that gap with continue to grow.

6 All-NBA teammates over 21 seasons for LeBron vs 5 all-NBA players over 15 seasons for MJ? CrAzY ImBaLaNcE!!1

Again with all-star appearances. Just lol I guess we need to add to LeBron's achievements when he SWEPT the 4 all-star Hawks, also with Kyrie getting injured and only playing 1.5 games.

4 all stars must mean they're an all time great team, right? All-star appearances bruh!

[michaelm]

Time for a reality check...






In B4 "DATS CHERRY PICKING!!"

No offense Alexander, but your post perfectly encapsulates why this debate is one that is dominated by casual fans, and MJ is the winner in the minds of casual fans who don't have a deep understanding of the game. LeBron is typically the winner when you ask those with a deep understanding of the game.

Just a few examples. Why are we looking at all-star appearances instead of All-NBA? All-star is voted heavily by fans (lol) and doesn't even encapsulate and entire season. It's more of a popularury contest. Looking at all-star appearances instead of all-NBA is something you'd expect out of a casual fan.

Comparing the win totals of teams during the watered down expansion era versus the era with an explosion of international talent and the most talent ever? Again, a casual wouldn't know about the expansion era and how truly awful some teams were. Also, the 17-18 Warriors won 58 games, but we're easily better than any finals team MJ ever faced. The casuals wouldnt know that the team dealt with injuries or related players for the playoffs. Blindly comparing the win total of finals opponents? That's some casual level analysis.

Top 5 picks? That's especially bad analysis. I think even casuals would know that, but maybe not? Maybe they think a top 5 pick is automatically a great player. A casual fan would be more likely to think that than a well-versed NBA fan.

There's plenty of other examples from that graphic too. It's why you see things like this shared on Instagram. Casual fans and people who know nothing about the game eat this stuff up.

You are ever more desperate.

So your argument now is that you are correct because you have self determined that you are more knowledgable ?. And your qualification for casual status seems to be having followed the careers of both players in their time. Sure fans who favour a player 25 years after his prime years over the current flavour of the month are more likely to be casual fans. There is a phenomenon called recency bias which doesn’t quite work that way.

[AlexanderRight]

Just a few examples. Why are we looking at all-star appearances instead of All-NBA? All-star is voted heavily by fans (lol) and doesn't even encapsulate and entire season. It's more of a popularury contest. Looking at all-star appearances instead of all-NBA is something you'd expect out of a casual fan.

Number of times a teammate made All NBA WITH MJ - Scottie Pippen - 5 times
TOTAL 5 Times

Number of teammates that made All NBA WITH LBJ -
Wade - 3 times
Kyrie - 1 time
AD - 2 times
TOTAL 6 Times

Number of times someone made the All Star team with MJ - 1 player for 6 times
Number of times someone made the All Star team with LBJ -7 different players for 17 times

I am aware that Pippen has more ALL Defensive selections playing with Jordan than any of LBJ's teammates but to pretend that that fact is more important than the two facts I just gave you would be to pretend that Pippen by himself during his time with MJ had more impact than Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD/Luka when you combine all their time with Lebron together. And that would just be homerism.

Comparing the win totals of teams during the watered down expansion era versus the era with an explosion of international talent and the most talent ever? Again, a casual wouldn't know about the expansion era and how truly awful some teams were. Also, the 17-18 Warriors won 58 games, but we're easily better than any finals team MJ ever faced. The casuals wouldnt know that the team dealt with injuries or related players for the playoffs. Blindly comparing the win total of finals opponents? That's some casual level analysis.

Ah, so win totals matter when talking about the 55 win season the Bulls had after MJ left, but doesn't matter when talking about the wins other teams had when facing MJ? You see the blatant hypocrisy there? Today's players are better when talking about who Lebron faced but aren't better when talking about the 7 different All Stars LBJ played with for a total of 17 different seasons off All Star caliber play he's had next to him. You see the hypocrisy? When Lebron wins with a Super Team, it counts, but when he loses to one, it doesn't count. You see where I'm going...

And what you're touching on is an entirely different discussion. Even if I conceded that today's teams are better, that doesn't automatically make Lebron a better player. What you're suggesting is that the league overall had better play or more better teams, which is a fair comparison but that's not an argument for one individual player being better than someone else. Maybe you could push that if Lebron spent the majority of his teams on lottery teams with no help at all but he hasn't. He's benefited from the Super team era and "explosion of talent" as much as anyone. The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.

Top 5 picks? That's especially bad analysis. I think even casuals would know that, but maybe not? Maybe they think a top 5 pick is automatically a great player. A casual fan would be more likely to think that than a well-versed NBA fan.

Of course lottery picks bust. That stat just shows that Lebron has had way more bites out of the apple. He's played with 25 more top 5 picks so you can't say the opportunity wasn't there. He's had more veteran all star caliber play next to him as I've just explained to you so you can't say they were all busts. He's already had more All NBA selections next to him and assuming him and Luka stick together, that gap with continue to grow.

6 All-NBA teammates over 21 seasons for LeBron vs 5 all-NBA players over 15 seasons for MJ? CrAzY ImBaLaNcE!!1

Again with all-star appearances. Just lol I guess we need to add to LeBron's achievements when he SWEPT the 4 all-star Hawks, also with Kyrie getting injured and only playing 1.5 games.

4 all stars must mean they're an all time great team, right? All-star appearances bruh!

You mean Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague? Lol. The only reason they made the All Star game in 2015 was because PG snapped his foot in half in the summer and missed the whole year, Derozan missed half the year before All Star weekend and Kemba tore his meniscus in January and wasn't even available. This was the only year Korver and Jeff ever sniffed an All Star game. Nobody without an agenda actually thinks those two were All Star caliber players and talent at any point of their careers.

Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague used in a GOAT convo? Gimmie a break...

[ScrantonBulls]

Number of times a teammate made All NBA WITH MJ - Scottie Pippen - 5 times
TOTAL 5 Times

Number of teammates that made All NBA WITH LBJ -
Wade - 3 times
Kyrie - 1 time
AD - 2 times
TOTAL 6 Times

Number of times someone made the All Star team with MJ - 1 player for 6 times
Number of times someone made the All Star team with LBJ -7 different players for 17 times

I am aware that Pippen has more ALL Defensive selections playing with Jordan than any of LBJ's teammates but to pretend that that fact is more important than the two facts I just gave you would be to pretend that Pippen by himself during his time with MJ had more impact than Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD/Luka when you combine all their time with Lebron together. And that would just be homerism.



Ah, so win totals matter when talking about the 55 win season the Bulls had after MJ left, but doesn't matter when talking about the wins other teams had when facing MJ? You see the blatant hypocrisy there? Today's players are better when talking about who Lebron faced but aren't better when talking about the 7 different All Stars LBJ played with for a total of 17 different seasons off All Star caliber play he's had next to him. You see the hypocrisy? When Lebron wins with a Super Team, it counts, but when he loses to one, it doesn't count. You see where I'm going...

And what you're touching on is an entirely different discussion. Even if I conceded that today's teams are better, that doesn't automatically make Lebron a better player. What you're suggesting is that the league overall had better play or more better teams, which is a fair comparison but that's not an argument for one individual player being better than someone else. Maybe you could push that if Lebron spent the majority of his teams on lottery teams with no help at all but he hasn't. He's benefited from the Super team era and "explosion of talent" as much as anyone. The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.



Of course lottery picks bust. That stat just shows that Lebron has had way more bites out of the apple. He's played with 25 more top 5 picks so you can't say the opportunity wasn't there. He's had more veteran all star caliber play next to him as I've just explained to you so you can't say they were all busts. He's already had more All NBA selections next to him and assuming him and Luka stick together, that gap with continue to grow.

6 All-NBA teammates over 21 seasons for LeBron vs 5 all-NBA players over 15 seasons for MJ? CrAzY ImBaLaNcE!!1

Again with all-star appearances. Just lol I guess we need to add to LeBron's achievements when he SWEPT the 4 all-star Hawks, also with Kyrie getting injured and only playing 1.5 games.

4 all stars must mean they're an all time great team, right? All-star appearances bruh!

You mean Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague? Lol. The only reason they made the All Star game in 2015 was because PG snapped his foot in half in the summer and missed the whole year, Derozan missed half the year before All Star weekend and Kemba tore his meniscus in January and wasn't even available. This was the only year Korver and Jeff ever sniffed an All Star game. Nobody without an agenda actually thinks those two were All Star caliber players and talent at any point of their careers.

Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague used in a GOAT convo? Gimmie a break...

Still struggling to understand the point I see. Shocking.

[AlexanderRight]

6 All-NBA teammates over 21 seasons for LeBron vs 5 all-NBA players over 15 seasons for MJ? CrAzY ImBaLaNcE!!1

Again with all-star appearances. Just lol I guess we need to add to LeBron's achievements when he SWEPT the 4 all-star Hawks, also with Kyrie getting injured and only playing 1.5 games.

4 all stars must mean they're an all time great team, right? All-star appearances bruh!

You mean Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague? Lol. The only reason they made the All Star game in 2015 was because PG snapped his foot in half in the summer and missed the whole year, Derozan missed half the year before All Star weekend and Kemba tore his meniscus in January and wasn't even available. This was the only year Korver and Jeff ever sniffed an All Star game. Nobody without an agenda actually thinks those two were All Star caliber players and talent at any point of their careers.

Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague used in a GOAT convo? Gimmie a break...

Still struggling to understand the point I see. Shocking.

You're not really suggesting that Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and AD are not legitimate All Star level players are you? You're really gonna act like Jeff Teague and Kyle Korver are on the same level and boat as those guys? Surely, you can't be that far gone...

[f4p]

The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.

i don't think a single team jordan faced in the finals would be a vegas favorite over any of the 4 warriors teams or any of the 3 spurs teams that lebron faced. those were all-time, battle-tested veterans squads from dynasties. certainly not the 4 warriors team or the 2007 or 2014 spurs. like maybe the 1996 sonics or 1997 jazz would be up there with the 2013 spurs? maybe?

and the thunder would be at least 50/50 vs basically any of the teams jordan faced.

2011 mavs are tougher as they were kind of secretly great all season when dirk played but i could see them being underdogs in vegas against some of jordan's opponents. only the 2020 heat are a weak opponent, especially with the injuries.

[ScrantonBulls]

The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.

i don't think a single team jordan faced in the finals would be a vegas favorite over any of the 4 warriors teams or any of the 3 spurs teams that lebron faced. those were all-time, battle-tested veterans squads from dynasties. certainly not the 4 warriors team or the 2007 or 2014 spurs. like maybe the 1996 sonics or 1997 jazz would be up there with the 2013 spurs? maybe?

and the thunder would be at least 50/50 vs basically any of the teams jordan faced.

2011 mavs are tougher as they were kind of secretly great all season when dirk played but i could see them being underdogs in vegas against some of jordan's opponents. only the 2020 heat are a weak opponent, especially with the injuries.

That Thunder team clowns most of Jordan's opponents. I think they beat any of the MJ finals opponents. KD, Westbrook, Harden (young of course), Ibaka, Thabo and Perkins. Really talented team.

[AlexanderRight]

The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.

i don't think a single team jordan faced in the finals would be a vegas favorite over any of the 4 warriors teams or any of the 3 spurs teams that lebron faced. those were all-time, battle-tested veterans squads from dynasties. certainly not the 4 warriors team or the 2007 or 2014 spurs. like maybe the 1996 sonics or 1997 jazz would be up there with the 2013 spurs? maybe?

and the thunder would be at least 50/50 vs basically any of the teams jordan faced.

2011 mavs are tougher as they were kind of secretly great all season when dirk played but i could see them being underdogs in vegas against some of jordan's opponents. only the 2020 heat are a weak opponent, especially with the injuries.

Finals teams are relative to their eras and competition. In the 90s, superstars didn't move as much so the best teams had just 1 or 2 stars max. So surprise...the Finals teams in the 90s had 1 or 2 stars. In Super Team era, best teams got 3 stars so surprise...most Finals teams got 3 stars.

But here's the kicker...Lebron created the modern Super team era. KD/Warriors don't exist if Heatles don't provide proof of concept. Lebron intentionally took the easiest possible path to win a ring so KD did the same thing. Just because KD did it better doesn't mean Lebron didn't have the same mindset. KD/Warriors being a better superteam than Heatles/Cavs doesn't mean Heatles/Cavs weren't a Super Team. You can't say it's only fair when Lebron has the best team and it only counts when he wins. Either count all of it or none of it.

[michaelm]

The Finals record of the opponents is to show that the top teams won at the same rate regardless of era so the talent balances itself out regardless.

i don't think a single team jordan faced in the finals would be a vegas favorite over any of the 4 warriors teams or any of the 3 spurs teams that lebron faced. those were all-time, battle-tested veterans squads from dynasties. certainly not the 4 warriors team or the 2007 or 2014 spurs. like maybe the 1996 sonics or 1997 jazz would be up there with the 2013 spurs? maybe?

and the thunder would be at least 50/50 vs basically any of the teams jordan faced.

2011 mavs are tougher as they were kind of secretly great all season when dirk played but i could see them being underdogs in vegas against some of jordan's opponents. only the 2020 heat are a weak opponent, especially with the injuries.

Except the Thunder when they played the Heat in 2012 were a team of 22 and 23 year olds making their first deep play-off run, not the players they eventually became, and the Heat were the team with experienced elite veteran players.

And what amuses me is that on the GSW Board there is no denigration of the 72 win Bulls or their opponents, I can’t even recall a thread about the 2017 GSW team being the GOAT team. GSW fans are just happy to have had that team in their lifetime, and the strongest advocacy for the 2017 team is mostly that they might be in the conversation with the 72 win Bulls.

And how surprising that the teams you list all of whom played team basketball were strong. For fans of team basketball the whole point is that teams who play team basketball can be stronger than those relying mainly on one ball dominant player, which Jordan’s career exemplifies.

[ScrantonBulls]

i don't think a single team jordan faced in the finals would be a vegas favorite over any of the 4 warriors teams or any of the 3 spurs teams that lebron faced. those were all-time, battle-tested veterans squads from dynasties. certainly not the 4 warriors team or the 2007 or 2014 spurs. like maybe the 1996 sonics or 1997 jazz would be up there with the 2013 spurs? maybe?

and the thunder would be at least 50/50 vs basically any of the teams jordan faced.

2011 mavs are tougher as they were kind of secretly great all season when dirk played but i could see them being underdogs in vegas against some of jordan's opponents. only the 2020 heat are a weak opponent, especially with the injuries.

Except the Thunder when they played the Heat in 2012 were a team of 22 and 23 year olds making their first deep play-off run, not the players they eventually became, and the Heat were the team with experienced elite veteran players.

And what amuses me is that on the GSW Board there is no denigration of the 72 win Bulls or their opponents, I can’t even recall a thread about the 2017 GSW team being the GOAT team. GSW fans are just happy to have had that team in their lifetime, and the strongest advocacy for the 2027 is mostly that they might be in the conversation with the 72 win Bulls.

And how surprising that the teams you list all of whom played team basketball were strong. For fans of team basketball the whole point is that teams who play team basketball can be stronger than those relying mainly on one ball dominant player, which Jordan’s career exemplifies.

Gee, it's almost as if when you're comparing two players (MJ and LeBron) you may happen to discuss their team strength and the strength of their opponents.

Apparently it's odd that people do that but GSW fans don't randomly bring up the 1996 Bulls for no apparent reason

[michaelm]

i don't think a single team jordan faced in the finals would be a vegas favorite over any of the 4 warriors teams or any of the 3 spurs teams that lebron faced. those were all-time, battle-tested veterans squads from dynasties. certainly not the 4 warriors team or the 2007 or 2014 spurs. like maybe the 1996 sonics or 1997 jazz would be up there with the 2013 spurs? maybe?

and the thunder would be at least 50/50 vs basically any of the teams jordan faced.

2011 mavs are tougher as they were kind of secretly great all season when dirk played but i could see them being underdogs in vegas against some of jordan's opponents. only the 2020 heat are a weak opponent, especially with the injuries.

Except the Thunder when they played the Heat in 2012 were a team of 22 and 23 year olds making their first deep play-off run, not the players they eventually became, and the Heat were the team with experienced elite veteran players.

And what amuses me is that on the GSW Board there is no denigration of the 72 win Bulls or their opponents, I can’t even recall a thread about the 2017 GSW team being the GOAT team. GSW fans are just happy to have had that team in their lifetime, and the strongest advocacy for the 2027 is mostly that they might be in the conversation with the 72 win Bulls.

And how surprising that the teams you list all of whom played team basketball were strong. For fans of team basketball the whole point is that teams who play team basketball can be stronger than those relying mainly on one ball dominant player, which Jordan’s career exemplifies.

Gee, it's almost as if when you're comparing two players (MJ and LeBron) you may happen to discuss their team strength and the strength of their opponents.

Apparently it's odd that people do that but GSW fans don't randomly bring up the 1996 Bulls for no apparent reason

My apologies, I should have remembered that you need to have things explained to you slowly and simply.

A major schtick of those of your ilk in my view is to attribute the success of LeBron’s teams to him and of Jordan’s teams to his team-mates, to denigrate LeBron’s team-mates and exalt Jordan’s, and to denigrate Jordan’s opposition and exalt LeBron’s. My point was that dyed in the wool GSW fans who love that 2017 team, which it would seem fairly likely was the best team LeBron ever faced, still respect the 72 win Bulls and don’t necessarily put the 2017 Warriors above them.

I guess we just don’t have your depth of knowledge, particularly in regard to events you fairly clearly didn’t observe.

[bledredwine]

"Man Lebron won a title no version of Jordan would have a hope of winning. Why didn't he win an even harder one?"

Again unfortunately for you there is a difference between what actually did occur in this reality and whatever you might like to decide hypothetically.

What "actually did happen"

2015 Cavs WITH Lebron
50-19 with, 59-win pace, +7.9 Net
(3-10 without)

2016 Cavs WITH Lebron
56-20 with, 60-win pace, +7.6 Net
(1-3 without)


2017 Cavs WITH Lebron
51-23 with, 56-win pace, +5.4 Net
(0-8 without)

"Whatever you might like to decide hypothetically" is Jordan being a better "ceiling raiser"

You should figure out what words mean before you use them.

You don’t know what a ceiling raiser is. It gets a team to the highest level.

For example, someone who can take a team to the greatest record of all time or two threepeats, instead of choking away a championship, having some of the worst finals slaughters of all time against his own team, and can’t consistently outplay the other team’s best player in the finals, or even guard that player correctly to limit them.

Yeah, Lebron’s not a ceiling raiser as much as a floor raiser. Jordan is the best ceiling raiser and leads lebron in the important advanced metrics. You can state as much longevity metrics as you want but those don’t mean a thing in terms of the level they played at. Jordan also leads box score plus minus

The greatest player of all time led the squad with the greatest season of all time, and two three peats.
So what did lebron do with his team? The only thing you can do is try to glorify that poorly playing golden state team who killed it in the regular season and entered the playoffs with a poor man’s version of steph. And of course you have to include 2011. Losing your team a championship instead of winning them one is kind of a big deal and the definition of not being a ceiling raiser.

Ceiling raisers also tend to be clutch, unlike my signature.

The fact is, if Lebron three-peated, retired, three-peated again within eight years, you’d all lose your **** by now and he’d be the unanimous goat, except someone already did that and was more dominant, plain and simple. Lebron has four in twenty two years while shifting from team to team to chase rings. Two were from forming a superteam with two other MVP candidates,one who played at his own level as a player. One was with his robin averaging near thirty, and in the other, AD was arguably the best player on the court. That’s how much help he had. That’s piss poor in comparison.