Official NBA General Discussion 2024-25 V2.0

[Tacoma]

For anyone trying to say "See Masai should have kept Siakam" ....We tried to keep Siakam for longer than we should have and we gave Siakam the keys...He was our first option since 2020....And for most of them years we were not a very good team with him as the lead guy....

Reason hes having success in Indiana is because he is in a better role with better players around him that fit his style.... we had no chance to put these players around Siakam because we didn't have the assets to do so....Siakam lead team with good high end role players in FVV/OG ended up being perennial losers...

No point in harping on the past though with these guys....Both OG/Siakam are on better teams than what we could have provided for both guys...Leave it at that...We should be focusing on the players we have and the players we will continue to get to build back up better and stronger than what the Pacers/Knicks are.....And i believe Masai can get it done if he plays his cards right and we get lotto Luck.

Your claim is that, post 2019, the plan was to give Siakam the keys which was wrong & in the ensuing years, with our asset base eroding due to contracts expiring fueling players to leave for nothing, we failed to build around him like the Pacers have done.

So on the back of playing so many wrong cards over the past 5+ years, you believe Masai can get it done if he plays his cards right? This logic is a bit perplexing unless you can still claim on the basis that we won in 2019, which begs the question what is the shelf life one can keep making this claim?

[deck]

For anyone trying to say "See Masai should have kept Siakam" ....We tried to keep Siakam for longer than we should have and we gave Siakam the keys...He was our first option since 2020....And for most of them years we were not a very good team with him as the lead guy....

Reason hes having success in Indiana is because he is in a better role with better players around him that fit his style.... we had no chance to put these players around Siakam because we didn't have the assets to do so....Siakam lead team with good high end role players in FVV/OG ended up being perennial losers...

No point in harping on the past though with these guys....Both OG/Siakam are on better teams than what we could have provided for both guys...Leave it at that...We should be focusing on the players we have and the players we will continue to get to build back up better and stronger than what the Pacers/Knicks are.....And i believe Masai can get it done if he plays his cards right and we get lotto Luck.

The bolded part is of course, not true. The Pacers didn't have a significant stockpile of assets when they built this team. We had similar assets at the time.

I'm not advocating for keeping the OG and Siakam team together, but no need to make false claims.

I mean....They traded Sabonis to get Hailiburton....We would have had to give up Siakam to match that.....I don't see a world where we could have upgraded upon OG/FVV and got Siakam a Turner level C and a Dynamic PG liek Tyrese....Sure we could have tried to move Barnes for something...But at that point in time no Superstar was available besides Durant....And Masai didn't want to bank his future for a 35/36 year old injury proned Durant...

Imo the Pacers are still not title contenders anyways....I think they will be like our old Raptors teams were....Good but not good enough....Its hard to fault Masai for giving up on the core we had when he tried his best to make it work but every year with Siakam at the helm we were perennial losers...

This part is also, not true. We had one loosing season with Siakam as our number 1.

The Siakam / OG / FVV team fell apart largely due to chemistry issues, and a lack of bench depth. I'm not sure the chemistry issues could be fixed, but addressing bench depth is not that hard.

We likely never would have met your arbitrary 'real contender' definition, but it is not impossible as you were suggesting that we could have been a playoff team again with the Siakam / OG core, similar to where Indiana is now.

[Clutch0z24]

For anyone trying to say "See Masai should have kept Siakam" ....We tried to keep Siakam for longer than we should have and we gave Siakam the keys...He was our first option since 2020....And for most of them years we were not a very good team with him as the lead guy....

Reason hes having success in Indiana is because he is in a better role with better players around him that fit his style.... we had no chance to put these players around Siakam because we didn't have the assets to do so....Siakam lead team with good high end role players in FVV/OG ended up being perennial losers...

No point in harping on the past though with these guys....Both OG/Siakam are on better teams than what we could have provided for both guys...Leave it at that...We should be focusing on the players we have and the players we will continue to get to build back up better and stronger than what the Pacers/Knicks are.....And i believe Masai can get it done if he plays his cards right and we get lotto Luck.

Your claim is that, post 2019, the plan was to give Siakam the keys which was wrong & in the ensuing years, with our asset base eroding due to contracts expiring fueling players to leave for nothing, we failed to build around him like the Pacers have done.

So on the back of playing so many wrong cards over the past 5+ years, you believe Masai can get it done if he plays his cards right? This logic is a bit perplexing unless you can still claim on the basis that we won in 2019, which begs the question what is the shelf life one can keep making this claim?

Masai and the front office are a great drafting team we got Siakam/OG/FVV core with late first round and FVV went undrafted....Give Masai a couple high end picks and watch him cook....My point is we were and always would be fools gold just like the Pacers are.....Would love if Pacers proved me wrong and win it all this year but i doubt that happens...

Masai has never ever played the draft game....Hes playing it this year....We can possibly build a better team than what we had or could have had...

[TheGeneral99]

The Cavaliers collapse this playoffs is worse than any collapse we had during the "we the north" era.

Our team got way too much flack for losing to literal prime/peak Lebron on a super team with Kyrie and Kevin Love...we were the underdogs every series except 2018.

This Cavaliers team won 64 games and losing to Haliburton and Siakim? Embarrassing. Our Lowry/Derozan team at least beat who were we supposed to beat from 2016-2018.

I don't know, we got swept by a mediocre Wizards team in the first round in 2015 which was pretty bad.

I was talking 2016-2018.

But in 2015 we weren't a contender by any means yet. We won 49 games and played a Wizards team that won 46 games, it was a 4 seed vs. 5 seed. Our squad in 2015 did not play well post-all-star break when Lowry was dealing with an obvious injury. Yeah it was a bad series but it wasn't like we were the huge favorites that were expected to have a deep playoff run.

The difference is the Cavaliers had a historic season, they won 64 games, they are #1 seed, this is way way different.

[Clutch0z24]

The bolded part is of course, not true. The Pacers didn't have a significant stockpile of assets when they built this team. We had similar assets at the time.

I'm not advocating for keeping the OG and Siakam team together, but no need to make false claims.

I mean....They traded Sabonis to get Hailiburton....We would have had to give up Siakam to match that.....I don't see a world where we could have upgraded upon OG/FVV and got Siakam a Turner level C and a Dynamic PG liek Tyrese....Sure we could have tried to move Barnes for something...But at that point in time no Superstar was available besides Durant....And Masai didn't want to bank his future for a 35/36 year old injury proned Durant...

Imo the Pacers are still not title contenders anyways....I think they will be like our old Raptors teams were....Good but not good enough....Its hard to fault Masai for giving up on the core we had when he tried his best to make it work but every year with Siakam at the helm we were perennial losers...

This part is also, not true. We had one loosing season with Siakam as our number 1.

The Siakam / OG / FVV team fell apart largely due to chemistry issues, and a lack of bench depth. I'm not sure the chemistry issues could be fixed, but addressing bench depth is not that hard.

We likely never would have met your arbitrary 'real contender' definition, but it is not impossible as you were suggesting that we could have been a playoff team again with the Siakam / OG core, similar to where Indiana is now.

I don't count a play in loss a "Winning season" sorry....We have been bad post Kawhi....We got bounced first round against the Celtics post Kawhi, Had a losing season to get Barnes, Lost in the first round to the 76ers, Followed by years of bad seasons....Hard to get excited to keep that core around for long...

Not to mention that Siakam/OG/FVV prolly all wanted to leave behind the scenes anyways....Which is prolly a big factor in this...They were checked out...

We are in a new era ...Past is the past....Leave it in the past....Trust the front office....

[TheGeneral99]

Everyone seems to gloss over the fact that Siakam was the leading scorer for a Raptor team post championship that had the second best record in the league. His first year as a focal point. A lot is made about his failures as the man but he really has proved himself throughout 2018-2020 as a viable main piece on a championship level team.

So many people wanted to rush Siakam out the door at 29 but I never understood it because he is an extremely valuable piece and I think we will see Pascals game age very well. No one ever seems to mention what incredible shape he is in. We saw that last night when he was expending alot of energy moving around on offense but was still able to keep a young Mobley in front of him at the other end. He is shredded... He looks like a 25 yr old... and his slim frame will prolong his career. I see him being an impact player into his mid thirties.

I think the issue was that our 2023 team had ZERO DEPTH, it was literally the worst bench in the league in production. So the starters had to take a huge load the entire season instead of being able to rely on a strong bench to help. I think if you had Poeltl the entire year and a couple decent bench pieces, it's probably a 50 win team.

One of the reasons that made the 'we the north' era so successful is that we had always had depth. Our Rudy Gay trade added multiple solid bench pieces and gave us significant balance with Vasquez, Hayes, Salmons, Patterson etc. Masai continued to bolster our bench with great draft selections with Norm, Delon, Fred, Siakam, OG, Poeltl.

Masai's draft picks post-championship like of Flynn, Koloko, Danton, Harris etc. didn't pan out and our free agent signings didn't pan out.

[TheGeneral99]

I mean....They traded Sabonis to get Hailiburton....We would have had to give up Siakam to match that.....I don't see a world where we could have upgraded upon OG/FVV and got Siakam a Turner level C and a Dynamic PG liek Tyrese....Sure we could have tried to move Barnes for something...But at that point in time no Superstar was available besides Durant....And Masai didn't want to bank his future for a 35/36 year old injury proned Durant...

Imo the Pacers are still not title contenders anyways....I think they will be like our old Raptors teams were....Good but not good enough....Its hard to fault Masai for giving up on the core we had when he tried his best to make it work but every year with Siakam at the helm we were perennial losers...

This part is also, not true. We had one loosing season with Siakam as our number 1.

The Siakam / OG / FVV team fell apart largely due to chemistry issues, and a lack of bench depth. I'm not sure the chemistry issues could be fixed, but addressing bench depth is not that hard.

We likely never would have met your arbitrary 'real contender' definition, but it is not impossible as you were suggesting that we could have been a playoff team again with the Siakam / OG core, similar to where Indiana is now.

I don't count a play in loss a "Winning season" sorry....We have been bad post Kawhi....We got bounced first round against the Celtics post Kawhi, Had a losing season to get Barnes, Lost in the first round to the 76ers, Followed by years of bad seasons....Hard to get excited to keep that core around for long...

Not to mention that Siakam/OG/FVV prolly all wanted to leave behind the scenes anyways....Which is prolly a big factor in this...They were checked out...

We are in a new era ...Past is the past....Leave it in the past....Trust the front office....

No, we lost in the 2nd round against the Celtics in a tough 7 game series.

[Clutch0z24]

This part is also, not true. We had one loosing season with Siakam as our number 1.

The Siakam / OG / FVV team fell apart largely due to chemistry issues, and a lack of bench depth. I'm not sure the chemistry issues could be fixed, but addressing bench depth is not that hard.

We likely never would have met your arbitrary 'real contender' definition, but it is not impossible as you were suggesting that we could have been a playoff team again with the Siakam / OG core, similar to where Indiana is now.

I don't count a play in loss a "Winning season" sorry....We have been bad post Kawhi....We got bounced first round against the Celtics post Kawhi, Had a losing season to get Barnes, Lost in the first round to the 76ers, Followed by years of bad seasons....Hard to get excited to keep that core around for long...

Not to mention that Siakam/OG/FVV prolly all wanted to leave behind the scenes anyways....Which is prolly a big factor in this...They were checked out...

We are in a new era ...Past is the past....Leave it in the past....Trust the front office....

No, we lost in the 2nd round against the Celtics in a tough 7 game series.

wow we beat D'Angelo russels Nets such a forgettable series i forgot about it....Thats the only series win with Siakam as the guy here...

[TheGeneral99]

I don't count a play in loss a "Winning season" sorry....We have been bad post Kawhi....We got bounced first round against the Celtics post Kawhi, Had a losing season to get Barnes, Lost in the first round to the 76ers, Followed by years of bad seasons....Hard to get excited to keep that core around for long...

Not to mention that Siakam/OG/FVV prolly all wanted to leave behind the scenes anyways....Which is prolly a big factor in this...They were checked out...

We are in a new era ...Past is the past....Leave it in the past....Trust the front office....

No, we lost in the 2nd round against the Celtics in a tough 7 game series.

wow we beat D'Angelo russels Nets such a forgettable series i forgot about it....Thats the only series win with Siakam as the guy here...

Well context is important:

2020 - our team won 53 games in a shortened 72 game season and we were on pace for our best season in franchise history before COVID-19 hit. Siakam and Gasol clearly were not in good shape for the bubble and it showed.
2021 - we lost Gasol and Ibaka and did not replace them with anyone good. Lowry was showing signs of decline. Our team was decimated by COVID and injuries, playing in Tampa. We decided to tank half-way through and got Barnes.
2022 - we won 48 games, Barnes won ROY, we had a decent 6 game series with the Sixers who were the favorites.
2023 - disappointing season, won 41 games, lost in the play-in. Important to note that we had the worst bench in the league that season and our starters had very good splits.
2024 - lost Fred in free agency and replaced him with Schroeder who sucked. Bench still sucked. Decided to blow it up and trade Siakam and OG, and rebuild.
2025 - 1st season in the rebuild.

[Clutch0z24]

No, we lost in the 2nd round against the Celtics in a tough 7 game series.

wow we beat D'Angelo russels Nets such a forgettable series i forgot about it....Thats the only series win with Siakam as the guy here...

Well context is important:

2020 - our team won 53 games in a shortened 72 game season and we were on pace for our best season in franchise history before COVID-19 hit. Siakam and Gasol clearly were not in good shape for the bubble and it showed.
2021 - we lost Gasol and Ibaka and did not replace them with anyone good. Lowry was showing signs of decline. Our team was decimated by COVID and injuries, playing in Tampa. We decided to tank half-way through and got Barnes.
2022 - we won 48 games, Barnes won ROY, we had a decent 6 game series with the Sixers who were the favorites.
2023 - disappointing season, won 41 games, lost in the play-in. Important to note that we had the worst bench in the league that season and our starters had very good splits.
2024 - lost Fred in free agency and replaced him with Schroeder who sucked. Bench still sucked. Decided to blow it up and trade Siakam and OG, and rebuild.
2025 - 1st season in the rebuild.

Yep and you also have to look at the context....Nurse And all the toxic stuff and rumors about trades etc...Siakam saying he won't go to said team if we trade him...The writting was on the wall....And yeah like i said i don't really call any of them seasons as successfull....Fun to cheer for sure....But during the whole Siakam lead teams i personally never believed we had a chance to be a legit winning team not once....Good reg season team sure but a legit threat in the East....I never ever thought we were....And when thats the case its best to start fresh like we are doing now.

[TheGeneral99]

wow we beat D'Angelo russels Nets such a forgettable series i forgot about it....Thats the only series win with Siakam as the guy here...

Well context is important:

2020 - our team won 53 games in a shortened 72 game season and we were on pace for our best season in franchise history before COVID-19 hit. Siakam and Gasol clearly were not in good shape for the bubble and it showed.
2021 - we lost Gasol and Ibaka and did not replace them with anyone good. Lowry was showing signs of decline. Our team was decimated by COVID and injuries, playing in Tampa. We decided to tank half-way through and got Barnes.
2022 - we won 48 games, Barnes won ROY, we had a decent 6 game series with the Sixers who were the favorites.
2023 - disappointing season, won 41 games, lost in the play-in. Important to note that we had the worst bench in the league that season and our starters had very good splits.
2024 - lost Fred in free agency and replaced him with Schroeder who sucked. Bench still sucked. Decided to blow it up and trade Siakam and OG, and rebuild.
2025 - 1st season in the rebuild.

Yep and you also have to look at the context....Nurse And all the toxic stuff and rumors about trades etc...Siakam saying he won't go to said team if we trade him...The writting was on the wall....And yeah like i said i don't really call any of them seasons as successfull....Fun to cheer for sure....But during the whole Siakam lead player i personally never believed we had a chance to be a legit winning team not once....Good reg season team sure but a legit threat in the East....I never ever thought we were....And when thats the case its best to start fresh like we are doing now.

I do agree that squad is probably capped at a 2nd round team.

But I would also say that Masai didn't really help them with how bad the bench was in 2022, 2023 and 2024. I recall that we were either 29th or 30th in bench production for those 3 years.

The only thing you could argue is that lets say we had a 50 win team with the core of Fred, Siakam, OG, Barnes, Poeltl etc...are we in a better position to trade for Giannis right now or another disgruntled superstar, while staying a contender?

Hard to say.

I think the lesson here is you need an MVP player and if you don't have an MVP you also depth to keep winning during a long 82 game seasond despite injuries...teams like Boston have great depth, OKC has amazing depth, Cavs have amazing depth, Pacers have really good depth etc. Our Raptors teams from 2014-2019 had really good depth.

Hopefully, guys like Shead, Mogbo, Dick, Walter and the addition of a lottery pick this year give us some good depth going forward.

[Tripod]

Well context is important:

2020 - our team won 53 games in a shortened 72 game season and we were on pace for our best season in franchise history before COVID-19 hit. Siakam and Gasol clearly were not in good shape for the bubble and it showed.
2021 - we lost Gasol and Ibaka and did not replace them with anyone good. Lowry was showing signs of decline. Our team was decimated by COVID and injuries, playing in Tampa. We decided to tank half-way through and got Barnes.
2022 - we won 48 games, Barnes won ROY, we had a decent 6 game series with the Sixers who were the favorites.
2023 - disappointing season, won 41 games, lost in the play-in. Important to note that we had the worst bench in the league that season and our starters had very good splits.
2024 - lost Fred in free agency and replaced him with Schroeder who sucked. Bench still sucked. Decided to blow it up and trade Siakam and OG, and rebuild.
2025 - 1st season in the rebuild.

Yep and you also have to look at the context....Nurse And all the toxic stuff and rumors about trades etc...Siakam saying he won't go to said team if we trade him...The writting was on the wall....And yeah like i said i don't really call any of them seasons as successfull....Fun to cheer for sure....But during the whole Siakam lead player i personally never believed we had a chance to be a legit winning team not once....Good reg season team sure but a legit threat in the East....I never ever thought we were....And when thats the case its best to start fresh like we are doing now.

I do agree that squad is probably capped at a 2nd round team.

But I would also say that Masai didn't really help them with how bad the bench was in 2022, 2023 and 2024. I recall that we were either 29th or 30th in bench production for those 3 years.

The only thing you could argue is that lets say we had a 50 win team with the core of Fred, Siakam, OG, Barnes, Poeltl etc...are we in a better position to trade for Giannis right now or another disgruntled superstar, while staying a contender?

Hard to say.

I think the lesson here is you need an MVP player and if you don't have an MVP you also depth to keep winning during a long 82 game seasond despite injuries...teams like Boston have great depth, OKC has amazing depth, Cavs have amazing depth, Pacers have really good depth etc. Our Raptors teams from 2014-2019 had really good depth.

Hopefully, guys like Shead, Mogbo, Dick, Walter and the addition of a lottery pick this year give us some good depth going forward.

Our bench sucked, but we also had a coach who refused to try and improve that bench and live with a few less wins, because he himself was checked out.

Look at Achiuwa. He CAN be effective if told he is not allowed to go roque and do whatever he wants. Tibs holds him to that, Nurse didn't.

Or Boucher. We benched him this year because he was helping win games playing within our system. Under Nurse, he too could do whatever he wanted.

Masai absolutely deserves criticism but Nurse does as well for playing starters 40 mins and not incorporating the bench BETTER.

In the end, the team culture had become toxic from the coach on down. Money had become the common topic with ALL of Nurse, OG, Siakam and FVV instead of team play. And it showed.

That era is over and the next one is just beginning. Let's enjoy the ride. This past year, win or lose, the games were much more entertaining to watch and you can see how the culture is completely different. You can see how happy guys are for one another and like one another. Now let's hope we get Flagg!

[rapz101]

The system is what it is, but I can't help but feel how crummy it would be if we ended up moving down. This draft has the chance of hurting us for the next 5-10 years.

[Dr Positivity]

Denver's starting lineup is title caliber but they're just missing a few extra bench guys.

[mdenny]

If Cleveland loses this series...it's time to call them a treadmill.

The injuries to their core starters is a frustratingly good enough excuse to say this year's improvements are untested, considering how thoroughly they dismantled the Heat.

But that same core group of starters got cleaned up by an unimpressive Knicks team last year and they fundamentally still have the same glaring weaknesses of small guards liabilities on D to double big/lack of shooting constraining the offense. A double whammy that great teams should be able to exploit easily. Don't see how an extra year of growth/experience solves it.

I thought they were a paper tiger all year because of it. That's why I still see the Celtics, as flawed as they are, as the only real test in the east for these playoff builds (both Pacers and Cavs).

I'm throwing away that Heat series. This series is a true test. Yes they missed Garland for the first 2 games along with Mobley/Hunter for one game but if they lose this series especially after the stinker we just saw...the treadmill label sticks.

At the core...something doesn't quite work and I can't quite put my finger on it. Is it the small backcourt? Is it the Mobley/Allen front court? In my opinion...it's time for Mobley to slide over to the 5 and use Allen +/- Garland to improve on the wing. The Garland/Mitchell/Strus starting combination is bad defensively. That's a huge issue.

For me....it's Donovan Mitchell. I get the sense he is a horrible teammate. He just always looks like he's out for himself. Great players often have big egos....but he just seems much more concerned with his own performance than he does with pure winning.

[mtcan]

The injuries to their core starters is a frustratingly good enough excuse to say this year's improvements are untested, considering how thoroughly they dismantled the Heat.

But that same core group of starters got cleaned up by an unimpressive Knicks team last year and they fundamentally still have the same glaring weaknesses of small guards liabilities on D to double big/lack of shooting constraining the offense. A double whammy that great teams should be able to exploit easily. Don't see how an extra year of growth/experience solves it.

I thought they were a paper tiger all year because of it. That's why I still see the Celtics, as flawed as they are, as the only real test in the east for these playoff builds (both Pacers and Cavs).

I'm throwing away that Heat series. This series is a true test. Yes they missed Garland for the first 2 games along with Mobley/Hunter for one game but if they lose this series especially after the stinker we just saw...the treadmill label sticks.

At the core...something doesn't quite work and I can't quite put my finger on it. Is it the small backcourt? Is it the Mobley/Allen front court? In my opinion...it's time for Mobley to slide over to the 5 and use Allen +/- Garland to improve on the wing. The Garland/Mitchell/Strus starting combination is bad defensively. That's a huge issue.

For me....it's Donovan Mitchell. I get the sense he is a horrible teammate. He just always looks like he's out for himself. Great players often have big egos....but he just seems much more concerned with his own performance than he does with pure winning.

It is fair to look at Mitchell as a the reason because he hasn't been able to lift his teams beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs ever. He is the offensive engine that drives the Cavs so as he goes...so does the team. But I keep coming back to the lack of size beyond the 2 starting 7 footers is the biggest issue. If the plan is to keep building around Mitchell and Mobley...they are going to need a bigger guard beside him and a more dynamic forward that is a better offensive threat than Jarrett Allen.

I would look to trade Garland and Allen and upgrade at the wing.

[Brinbe]

thibs is a **** fraud. doesn't have his guys prepared again

slow start at home for a 2nd straight game is not acceptable

[WaltFrazier]

thibs is a **** fraud. doesn't have his guys prepared again

slow start at home for a 2nd straight game is not acceptable

You're right.
Knicks came back but now getting a terrible whistle. Kat especially gets mauled and pushed every drive no calls.

Boston shoots threes, 6-9 from the line. NYK zero free throws

[junot111]

OG hurt his hamstring...

[Brinbe]

this is more like the celts-knicks series we expected now that boston isn't shooting historically bad from 3