What is the plan here?

[Duffman100]

I think this may be overstating DD a bit. I think Ingram is fairly close to DD although I'd still say DD is better for sure. And the depth behind that with Quick, RJ, Poeltl is certainly miles ahead what the early we the north era teams had to work with. Those teams were very rough looking back at the rosters until we nailed a few drafts in a row for our depth (and obviously didn't blossom for a while after). Derozan's raw numbers were always better than his actual impact and we've seen that play out a bit across various teams in his career now.

I think the Lowry/Scottie comp is actually why this Raptors team would not be as good. Peak Kyle Lowry was impact wise a top 15 player in the league (or higher depending on measure).

If Scottie is ever as good as peak Lowry I will tell you this team will be fine with the depth it has. Scottie being not yet close to peak Lowry is why they won't be and are unlikely to be barring a jump from him.

My understanding from the post I replied to, was that we are at the beginning of the Lowry/DD era. Thats why I said no one on the roster has the youth/experience to match DD at that time. BI is gonna be 28 at seasons start, in his 10th year, and perpetually injured.

That's why I don't think we have anything in that vein. Unless the argument was that next year, we'd be in the midst of a Lowry/DD era, then I say we don't have a Lowry. Either way, this has way more of a FVV/Siakam vibe than a Lowry/DD one to me. Either way, neither of those teams aren't going anywhere.

C's/Knicks/Cavs/Pacers would body either of those teams without batting an eye, we're going to be a playoff team in name only, we're on track to be the Joe Johnson/Josh Smith Hawks for the next 3-5 years. 1st round exits with the occasional 2nd round sprinkled in for good measure, but ultimately achieving nothing.

Demar's career playoff stats are

.418% FG, 21.4% 3P, (85.2% FT on 5.8/6.8 FT's a game, literally his only good stat), 4.7 TRB, 3.7 Ast, 1.1 Stl, 2.3 TO

he averages 21.8 PPG on 18.8 shots for a .502 TS

Demar is one of the worst playoff performers, in history, i'm as bleak on our upcoming future as anyone but i'd take just about anyone on our roster over Demar, including RJ.

While I agree, that's not a very high bar. And just to be clear, I wasn't the one making the comparison to KL/DD era teams, this is a Siakam/FVV type team IMO.

In my mind i have Barnes/IQ/RJ as more like DD/Lowry because i dont think they reached their ceiling yet.

One other big difference is siakam/fvv era had a garbage bench whereas we have some promising young depth for next year now like in the lowry/DD era

I was going to say. If this is the siakam / fvv team but it's has a bench, that's a 50 win team. And once you're a 50 win team, you're at the stage where that one trade can push you over.

[YogurtProducer]

My understanding from the post I replied to, was that we are at the beginning of the Lowry/DD era. Thats why I said no one on the roster has the youth/experience to match DD at that time. BI is gonna be 28 at seasons start, in his 10th year, and perpetually injured.

That's why I don't think we have anything in that vein. Unless the argument was that next year, we'd be in the midst of a Lowry/DD era, then I say we don't have a Lowry. Either way, this has way more of a FVV/Siakam vibe than a Lowry/DD one to me. Either way, neither of those teams aren't going anywhere.

C's/Knicks/Cavs/Pacers would body either of those teams without batting an eye, we're going to be a playoff team in name only, we're on track to be the Joe Johnson/Josh Smith Hawks for the next 3-5 years. 1st round exits with the occasional 2nd round sprinkled in for good measure, but ultimately achieving nothing.



While I agree, that's not a very high bar. And just to be clear, I wasn't the one making the comparison to KL/DD era teams, this is a Siakam/FVV type team IMO.

In my mind i have Barnes/IQ/RJ as more like DD/Lowry because i dont think they reached their ceiling yet.

One other big difference is siakam/fvv era had a garbage bench whereas we have some promising young depth for next year now like in the lowry/DD era

I was going to say. If this is the siakam / fvv team but it's has a bench, that's a 50 win team. And once you're a 50 win team, you're at the stage where that one trade can push you over.

Yeah IDK how this is constantly overlooked.

That was a 48 and 41 win team that had absolute zeros from the bench. Not to mention that 41 win team had a NRTG and SRS closer to a 45-win team and had just awful luck pretty much all year.

Sign me up for the 2021-2023 Raptors with more youth, better shot creation, all draft assets, and better fit and just see how it goes.

[deck]

We're building around Scottie, is that it? I held out hope that Scottie was just a placeholder "franchise player" until we get a top 5-6 pick (pushing Scottie to a number 2 or 3 option) but now that's out the window, where does this team go from here? If Brandon freaking Ingram is our best player over the next 2-3 seasons, we are in for a very long ride. Something has to give



Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro using RealGM mobile app

Treadmill with 1st round exits the next 3-4 years, Scottie walks or we trade him on an expiring with no leverage, after trading away another FRP to try and compete, only to have it spectacularly blow up in our faces again.

We got our chip by stockpiling valuable assets, we have moved away from that and are stockpiling SRP level players, and cast off players that other franchises have no interest in.

The team will absolutely be more watchable, and they will have a modicum of success, the "I just want to see the team win" crowd will be happy, and we will continue to be irrelevant while people point to our record in a weak east. The earth continues to spin.

Interesting. So do you admit to being completely wrong from 2012 to 2018 when all you could talk about was that the franchise desperately needed to tank?

[Scase]

We're building around Scottie, is that it? I held out hope that Scottie was just a placeholder "franchise player" until we get a top 5-6 pick (pushing Scottie to a number 2 or 3 option) but now that's out the window, where does this team go from here? If Brandon freaking Ingram is our best player over the next 2-3 seasons, we are in for a very long ride. Something has to give



Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro using RealGM mobile app

Treadmill with 1st round exits the next 3-4 years, Scottie walks or we trade him on an expiring with no leverage, after trading away another FRP to try and compete, only to have it spectacularly blow up in our faces again.

We got our chip by stockpiling valuable assets, we have moved away from that and are stockpiling SRP level players, and cast off players that other franchises have no interest in.

The team will absolutely be more watchable, and they will have a modicum of success, the "I just want to see the team win" crowd will be happy, and we will continue to be irrelevant while people point to our record in a weak east. The earth continues to spin.

Interesting. So do you admit to being completely wrong from 2012 to 2018 when all you could talk about was that the franchise desperately needed to tank?

I said we needed to get rid of casey and DD, which we did. Sorry I didn't suggest we trade him for a disgruntled Kawhi.

[PushDaRock]

Treadmill with 1st round exits the next 3-4 years, Scottie walks or we trade him on an expiring with no leverage, after trading away another FRP to try and compete, only to have it spectacularly blow up in our faces again.

We got our chip by stockpiling valuable assets, we have moved away from that and are stockpiling SRP level players, and cast off players that other franchises have no interest in.

The team will absolutely be more watchable, and they will have a modicum of success, the "I just want to see the team win" crowd will be happy, and we will continue to be irrelevant while people point to our record in a weak east. The earth continues to spin.

Interesting. So do you admit to being completely wrong from 2012 to 2018 when all you could talk about was that the franchise desperately needed to tank?

I said we needed to get rid of casey and DD, which we did. Sorry I didn't suggest we trade him for a disgruntled Kawhi.

you're forgiven, but do better next time

[Clutch0z24]

For anyone comparing this to the DD/Lowry era....or we are entering that era....Idk if that will be the case....Lowry was a great get by BC....Was a true leader, Lead the team, And was a true floor general....We do not have a player close on his level in his prime on this team....

Also them teams were perennial 50 win teams And often the top of the standings in the East for many years....That is alot different than what we are or even close to imo....We are more in the Magic Area with the addition of Ingram (Heath is a major concern here)....DeRozan was also one of the most durable players during his time here....Where we have guys who tend to get injured often....

It will be an uphill battle to even try and re create the success of that era of Raptors basketball imo...

I think we are basically in Get Giannis or die trying mode, hope Shai when hes a FA or close to the end of his contract he wants to come home....If them 2 things do not happen its hard for me to optimistic about the team we have now...

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

I'm curious, what gives you that expectation? Who is who in that scenario, cause no one on this roster has the age(youth) or the glimpses of talent that DD had in his first couple of years. I can see the Lowry/Scottie comp, but the DD one? Not a soul on the team IMO.

RJ is probably closest to the DD comp. similar warts and age and all.

My issue with the RJ comp is that his age is less important than his time in the league, experience tends to be the real defining factor, it's why you don't ever really see 4 year college players ever come into the league and them make massive jumps. RJ is going into year 7, DD made his first ASG by year 5, and a year younger than RJ will be next year. Guys don't take the big leaps due to just being young, but it's because there are so many things they can learn and improve on with their time in the league, I expect RJ to improve, but incremental stuff, not jumps.

DD made the all star team cause the east sucked. East is going back to sucking again so RJ and Scottie will be all stars for years to come(If RJ doesn't get traded lol)

For anyone comparing this to the DD/Lowry era....or we are entering that era....Idk if that will be the case....Lowry was a great get by BC....Was a true leader, Lead the team, And was a true floor general....We do not have a player close on his level in his prime on this team....

Also them teams were perennial 50 win teams And often the top of the standings in the East for many years....That is alot different than what we are or even close to imo....We are more in the Magic Area with the addition of Ingram (Heath is a major concern here)....DeRozan was also one of the most durable players during his time here....Where we have guys who tend to get injured often....

It will be an uphill battle to even try and re create the success of that era of Raptors basketball imo...

I think we are basically in Get Giannis or die trying mode, hope Shai when hes a FA or close to the end of his contract he wants to come home....If them 2 things do not happen its hard for me to optimistic about the team we have now...

do you guys remember how bad the east was?? on;y reason we were doing well for most the 10s is the east being the worst it's ever been.... come on..

AND the pick we gave up for Lowry could have landed us Giannis who Ujiri wanted... not the greatest trade even tho it worked out we could have done better not doing it.

[Clutch0z24]

RJ is probably closest to the DD comp. similar warts and age and all.

My issue with the RJ comp is that his age is less important than his time in the league, experience tends to be the real defining factor, it's why you don't ever really see 4 year college players ever come into the league and them make massive jumps. RJ is going into year 7, DD made his first ASG by year 5, and a year younger than RJ will be next year. Guys don't take the big leaps due to just being young, but it's because there are so many things they can learn and improve on with their time in the league, I expect RJ to improve, but incremental stuff, not jumps.

DD made the all star team cause the east sucked. East is going back to sucking again so RJ and Scottie will be all stars for years to come(If RJ doesn't get traded lol)

For anyone comparing this to the DD/Lowry era....or we are entering that era....Idk if that will be the case....Lowry was a great get by BC....Was a true leader, Lead the team, And was a true floor general....We do not have a player close on his level in his prime on this team....

Also them teams were perennial 50 win teams And often the top of the standings in the East for many years....That is alot different than what we are or even close to imo....We are more in the Magic Area with the addition of Ingram (Heath is a major concern here)....DeRozan was also one of the most durable players during his time here....Where we have guys who tend to get injured often....

It will be an uphill battle to even try and re create the success of that era of Raptors basketball imo...

I think we are basically in Get Giannis or die trying mode, hope Shai when hes a FA or close to the end of his contract he wants to come home....If them 2 things do not happen its hard for me to optimistic about the team we have now...

do you guys remember how bad the east was?? on;y reason we were doing well for most the 10s is the east being the worst it's ever been.... come on..

AND the pick we gave up for Lowry could have landed us Giannis who Ujiri wanted... not the greatest trade even tho it worked out we could have done better not doing it.

Im not here to argue what we could have should of done or how bad the east was....Im just saying what actually happened and why we are not going to be as good as them teams....Because we do not have a Lowry level player and Ingram as good of an addition he is has been injured the majority of his career...Just tough for me to see us being a top team in the east with the current team we have.....2 many holes defensivly/offensivly.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

My issue with the RJ comp is that his age is less important than his time in the league, experience tends to be the real defining factor, it's why you don't ever really see 4 year college players ever come into the league and them make massive jumps. RJ is going into year 7, DD made his first ASG by year 5, and a year younger than RJ will be next year. Guys don't take the big leaps due to just being young, but it's because there are so many things they can learn and improve on with their time in the league, I expect RJ to improve, but incremental stuff, not jumps.

DD made the all star team cause the east sucked. East is going back to sucking again so RJ and Scottie will be all stars for years to come(If RJ doesn't get traded lol)

For anyone comparing this to the DD/Lowry era....or we are entering that era....Idk if that will be the case....Lowry was a great get by BC....Was a true leader, Lead the team, And was a true floor general....We do not have a player close on his level in his prime on this team....

Also them teams were perennial 50 win teams And often the top of the standings in the East for many years....That is alot different than what we are or even close to imo....We are more in the Magic Area with the addition of Ingram (Heath is a major concern here)....DeRozan was also one of the most durable players during his time here....Where we have guys who tend to get injured often....

It will be an uphill battle to even try and re create the success of that era of Raptors basketball imo...

I think we are basically in Get Giannis or die trying mode, hope Shai when hes a FA or close to the end of his contract he wants to come home....If them 2 things do not happen its hard for me to optimistic about the team we have now...

do you guys remember how bad the east was?? on;y reason we were doing well for most the 10s is the east being the worst it's ever been.... come on..

AND the pick we gave up for Lowry could have landed us Giannis who Ujiri wanted... not the greatest trade even tho it worked out we could have done better not doing it.

Im not here to argue what we could have should of done or how bad the east was....Im just saying what actually happened and why we are not going to be as good as them teams....Because we do not have a Lowry level player and Ingram as good of an addition he is has been injured the majority of his career...Just tough for me to see us being a top team in the easy with the current team we have.....2 many holes defensivly/offensivly.

I think that team was less talented pre 2016 and patched up the holes by drafting(Siakam, Poetl, FVV and OG 2017) also trades like getting Gasol, Kawhi and Ibaka. Derozan is like RJ Barret and Lowry was at best 3rd option on a championship team(Siakam was 2nd option in 2019 no doubt.)

This team has to make some trades(RJ should go IMO) and with a few good picks could easily be on the way to being solid.

[Rapsalot]

By ‘the plan’ do you mean this offseason or 5 year arc?

Offseason: Hope and pray KM, DQ or J Fears is still there at 9. As backup see if there is a player like Kon K that Thunder or Orlando would trade their mid teen and mid 20 pick for that player from 9 and 39th pick. Take a C. Sorber or Wolf first and PG at 24/25.

PG: IQ, JS, L Philon or Saraf if he falls
SG: RJB, J’KW, GT
SF: BI, GD, OA
PF: SB, JM/CB, JB
C: JP, Sorber/Wolf pick, CB/JM. That is a good skilled roster with high in season depth that hopefully grows into playoff depth or you can consolidate some to future playoff depth. No team in the East scares me save Giannis if he had a team around him. Many of the teams in the East just more experienced not better if we develop.

This fits in with the bigger arc of seeing how current team fits when healthy and developing assets. We need to have 75% of our players more valuable to do future consolidation trade(s). Try hard to make 6th next year so team can get more playoff experience. 7-8 have been torched lately except Miami so want to get 6th for further development. Same with younger coaching staff.

[Scase]

RJ is probably closest to the DD comp. similar warts and age and all.

My issue with the RJ comp is that his age is less important than his time in the league, experience tends to be the real defining factor, it's why you don't ever really see 4 year college players ever come into the league and them make massive jumps. RJ is going into year 7, DD made his first ASG by year 5, and a year younger than RJ will be next year. Guys don't take the big leaps due to just being young, but it's because there are so many things they can learn and improve on with their time in the league, I expect RJ to improve, but incremental stuff, not jumps.

DD made the all star team cause the east sucked. East is going back to sucking again so RJ and Scottie will be all stars for years to come(If RJ doesn't get traded lol)

For anyone comparing this to the DD/Lowry era....or we are entering that era....Idk if that will be the case....Lowry was a great get by BC....Was a true leader, Lead the team, And was a true floor general....We do not have a player close on his level in his prime on this team....

Also them teams were perennial 50 win teams And often the top of the standings in the East for many years....That is alot different than what we are or even close to imo....We are more in the Magic Area with the addition of Ingram (Heath is a major concern here)....DeRozan was also one of the most durable players during his time here....Where we have guys who tend to get injured often....

It will be an uphill battle to even try and re create the success of that era of Raptors basketball imo...

I think we are basically in Get Giannis or die trying mode, hope Shai when hes a FA or close to the end of his contract he wants to come home....If them 2 things do not happen its hard for me to optimistic about the team we have now...

do you guys remember how bad the east was?? on;y reason we were doing well for most the 10s is the east being the worst it's ever been.... come on..

AND the pick we gave up for Lowry could have landed us Giannis who Ujiri wanted... not the greatest trade even tho it worked out we could have done better not doing it.

The east has been bad for years, RJ still never made an ASG.

Not to mention, that's the plan then? Just be "good" because the conference is trash? The cavs currently will be inifinitely better than this roster at it's peak, and they just got absolutely smashed. Same with the C's. So again, my prediction of us being the Joe Johnson/Josh Smith Hawks, is right on point. Not exactly a lofty goal for a sports franchise.

[Jadoogar]

the east is going to be rough next year. Tatum probably misses most of the season. Giannis might get traded to the west, even if he isn't, lillard is out for most of the season. Philly is Philly.

Teams like cleveland, indiana and NYK should be good but after than it's up in the air. Our roster is mid but there's no obvious holes. we could easily be in the 5th or 6th seed next year.

[Fairview4Life]

There is no plan you just keep asset building and hope for better results....Also the childish people saying in threads "Oh we laughing at team tank" As if we are the ones on this board controlling the direction of the team is going in....We have just been a bad to mid team....Masai is the one who went this direction because he himself knows we need a influx of talent to come somewhere and the draft has always and will always be the Raptors best friend regardless where we are picking...

Trades are not as easy anymore due to stars hand picking their destinations....Like Giannis he will hand pick where he wants to go....Prolly Spurs/Houston/OKC or one of the big market teams...

Raptors are very limited in ways to upgrade the roster and alot will harp on getting draft picks right...Even if we fell to 9th we just gotta hope Masai gets the pick right...

But yeah we are far away from contending still...We might be a fringe playoff team next year but theres not much to be overly excited about.

So basically do the OKC path and accumalte draft picks while going full tank mode.

Honestly for markets like Toronto that is our only hope. This current rostere is just delaying the inevitable.

Indiana is in b2b ECF's. Why are we acting like winning in the NBA is impossible unless you go full tank mode?

[Duffman100]

My issue with the RJ comp is that his age is less important than his time in the league, experience tends to be the real defining factor, it's why you don't ever really see 4 year college players ever come into the league and them make massive jumps. RJ is going into year 7, DD made his first ASG by year 5, and a year younger than RJ will be next year. Guys don't take the big leaps due to just being young, but it's because there are so many things they can learn and improve on with their time in the league, I expect RJ to improve, but incremental stuff, not jumps.

DD made the all star team cause the east sucked. East is going back to sucking again so RJ and Scottie will be all stars for years to come(If RJ doesn't get traded lol)

For anyone comparing this to the DD/Lowry era....or we are entering that era....Idk if that will be the case....Lowry was a great get by BC....Was a true leader, Lead the team, And was a true floor general....We do not have a player close on his level in his prime on this team....

Also them teams were perennial 50 win teams And often the top of the standings in the East for many years....That is alot different than what we are or even close to imo....We are more in the Magic Area with the addition of Ingram (Heath is a major concern here)....DeRozan was also one of the most durable players during his time here....Where we have guys who tend to get injured often....

It will be an uphill battle to even try and re create the success of that era of Raptors basketball imo...

I think we are basically in Get Giannis or die trying mode, hope Shai when hes a FA or close to the end of his contract he wants to come home....If them 2 things do not happen its hard for me to optimistic about the team we have now...

do you guys remember how bad the east was?? on;y reason we were doing well for most the 10s is the east being the worst it's ever been.... come on..

AND the pick we gave up for Lowry could have landed us Giannis who Ujiri wanted... not the greatest trade even tho it worked out we could have done better not doing it.

The east has been bad for years, RJ still never made an ASG.

Not to mention, that's the plan then? Just be "good" because the conference is trash? The cavs currently will be inifinitely better than this roster at it's peak, and they just got absolutely smashed. Same with the C's. So again, my prediction of us being the Joe Johnson/Josh Smith Hawks, is right on point. Not exactly a lofty goal for a sports franchise.

Again, that's a 50+ win team. And like we're an example of in the past, once you;re a 50 win team, you're one trade away from being a contender.

That's a legitimate path to NBA finals success. You either draft a superstar or you build iteratively. That Hawks team was really good they just never made it over the hump.

[gerrit4]

Anyone here saying "treadmill" hasn't paid attention to the league in the past ten years. Very few teams treadmill in the middle anymore, more teams treadmill at the bottom of the standings than they do at the 38-42 win zone. Other than the Bulls and Wizards, teams aren't really getting stuck on the "middle of the road" treadmill. The real treadmill is at the bottom - once you get in the under 20 win zone it's really tough to get out of it.

[YogurtProducer]

For anyone comparing this to the DD/Lowry era....or we are entering that era....Idk if that will be the case....Lowry was a great get by BC....Was a true leader, Lead the team, And was a true floor general....We do not have a player close on his level in his prime on this team....

Prime lowry was a 2nd/3rd all-nba type guy.

Its unlikely, but no crazy, to think Scottie or Ingram could be an all-nba guy as early as this year.

[YogurtProducer]

DD made the all star team cause the east sucked. East is going back to sucking again so RJ and Scottie will be all stars for years to come(If RJ doesn't get traded lol)



do you guys remember how bad the east was?? on;y reason we were doing well for most the 10s is the east being the worst it's ever been.... come on..

AND the pick we gave up for Lowry could have landed us Giannis who Ujiri wanted... not the greatest trade even tho it worked out we could have done better not doing it.

The east has been bad for years, RJ still never made an ASG.

Not to mention, that's the plan then? Just be "good" because the conference is trash? The cavs currently will be inifinitely better than this roster at it's peak, and they just got absolutely smashed. Same with the C's. So again, my prediction of us being the Joe Johnson/Josh Smith Hawks, is right on point. Not exactly a lofty goal for a sports franchise.

Again, that's a 50+ win team. And like we're an example of in the past, once you;re a 50 win team, you're one trade away from being a contender.

That's a legitimate path to NBA finals success. You either draft a superstar or you build iteratively. That Hawks team was really good they just never made it over the hump.

Like wtf are even doing here? Complaining that we are "only" a 50 win team?

Like my god. Scase signed up in 2008 or whatever but you'd think he started watching in June 2019 with how he views what success is.

[Duffman100]

The east has been bad for years, RJ still never made an ASG.

Not to mention, that's the plan then? Just be "good" because the conference is trash? The cavs currently will be inifinitely better than this roster at it's peak, and they just got absolutely smashed. Same with the C's. So again, my prediction of us being the Joe Johnson/Josh Smith Hawks, is right on point. Not exactly a lofty goal for a sports franchise.

Again, that's a 50+ win team. And like we're an example of in the past, once you;re a 50 win team, you're one trade away from being a contender.

That's a legitimate path to NBA finals success. You either draft a superstar or you build iteratively. That Hawks team was really good they just never made it over the hump.

Like wtf are even doing here? Complaining that we are "only" a 50 win team?

Like my god. Scase signed up in 2008 or whatever but you'd think he started watching in June 2019 with how he views what success is.

Because anything that isn't tanking is wrong. Even when the tanking teams all ended up out of the top 3...

Or you know, the obvious complain about everything all the time.

[OakleyDokely]

I got to see a championship in my lifetime. I just want to watch a fun team that competes, even if that team never wins a title. Last year was just terrible as a Raptors fan. Don't know how many more of those type of seasons I can stomach without tuning out completely.

Given the state of the east, anything is possible. It's likely going to be a Knicks/Pacers east final and neither of those teams are world beaters with multiple hall of famers. Both teams just made a lot of smart trades, made some good picks later in the draft and they have rosters that work hard and compete.

[Duffman100]

I got to see a championship in my lifetime. I just want to watch a fun team that competes, even if that team never wins a title. Last year was just terrible as a Raptors fan. Don't know how many more of those type of seasons I can stomach without tuning out completely.

Given the state of the east, anything is possible. It's likely going to be a Knicks/Pacers east final and neither of those teams are world beaters with multiple hall of famers. Both teams just made a lot of smart trades, made some good picks later in the draft and they have rosters that work hard and compete.

And look at Washington and Utah. Would you rather be them?

Sarr, Carrington, Coulabily + (Tre or Kon)
Markannen, Collier, George, Kessler, Sensabaugh + (Tre or Kon)

Each team has interesting pieces but still just awful and tanking AGAIN and counting on the lottery not **** ing them over. Which is bound to happen to one of them.