Post Mortem 2024-25

[ijspeelman]

Amazing regular season turned into an incredibly disappointing post-season.

Where do we go from here?

Do we attempt to keep Jerome/Merrill?

Do we go out and get a back-up center?

Do we attempt to package up players for another upgrade at a position?

Who is on the table when it comes to trades?

I've seen reactions ranging from re-tool around only Mitchell / Mobley to stand pat and run it back. This will be an interesting off-season.

[afarmenian]

Ja has to go the dude is just not built for high pressure moments I've seen enough that vacant thousand yard stare when things get tough the dude is just not built for this more than any of the other core players on our team he shrinks the most.

The problem is you can get good value for him but there are fans that want to advocate for Evan and playing the five full-time

I mean I don't know what kind of basketball you're watching where you think he's going to last he will absolutely get worn down to the nub.

so you have to get a competent big man in addition to a decent return on a perimeter player so I don't know I think it's tough but I don't I can't see how they're ever going to accomplish anything when one of your alleged big four has to be set down in the clutch.

[jbk1234]

We could trade Okoro for a backup center who could actually give us 5 minutes a half in the playoffs. I think Allen's a minute management guy who gets worn out, especially when Mobley misses a game due to injury or gets in foul trouble.

[JujitsuFlip]

Where do we go from here?

We run it back, 8 of our top 10 are locked up.

Do we attempt to keep Jerome/Merrill?

No. You talk to em, obviously but this is Delly and Moz in 2016 all over again. They're going to get paid and you just be happy for them and move on.

Do we go out and get a back-up center?

No. They should but since Allen arrived in January 2021 Koby has flat refused to sign a competent back up 5. I say use pick # 49 on a high floor, low ceiling stretch 5. I like Andrew Carr but he too is rail thin, not a great rebounder either. But there has to be a guy fitting that archetype out there.

Do we attempt to package up players for another upgrade at a position?

No, we're a 2nd apron team. We're not allowed under the CBA to combine contracts in a trade.

Who is on the table when it comes to trades?

No one. Try to draft a big athletic PG with pick #58.

[cavs4872]

We could trade Okoro for a backup center who could actually give us 5 minutes a half in the playoffs. I think Allen's a minute management guy who gets worn out, especially when Mobley misses a game due to injury or gets in foul trouble.

Exactly. We have too many wings and not enough bigs. It should really be Okoro, Merrill or Strus who goes.

Or we could just keep them and sign or draft a guy who has the body for the position. I would personally rather see an enforcer than a stretch 5. This will probably be a repeat of the late-2000s Cavs where they finally figure it out but it's too late (ie getting Shaq and Jamison to match up with Howard and Lewis). The postseason problems stifling the Cavs are big aggressive bodies like Mitchell Robinson, or what we just saw with Turner and Bryant; not the fact that we don't have a 5 that can shoot threes.

[toooskies]

We could trade Okoro for a backup center who could actually give us 5 minutes a half in the playoffs. I think Allen's a minute management guy who gets worn out, especially when Mobley misses a game due to injury or gets in foul trouble.

Exactly. We have too many wings and not enough bigs. It should really be Okoro, Merrill or Strus who goes.

Or we could just keep them and sign or draft a guy who has the body for the position. I would personally rather see an enforcer than a stretch 5. This will probably be a repeat of the late-2000s Cavs where they finally figure it out but it's too late (ie getting Shaq and Jamison to match up with Howard and Lewis). The postseason problems stifling the Cavs are big aggressive bodies like Mitchell Robinson, or what we just saw with Turner and Bryant; not the fact that we don't have a 5 that can shoot threes.

The issue is more that we couldn't run our usual offense. Their guards fought through screens, minimizing the advantages we'd usually get in the pick-and-roll game. We played tighter rotations and guys didn't have the energy to play both sides of the ball (and injuries didn't help), so you saw fewer and less effective actions on offense and too-slow rotations on defense. With less effective actions we took fewer open shots and gave up more open shots. So they shot a ton better than we did.

Maybe you just need more effective, less tired screeners. Maybe you need healthy ballhandlers who aren't missing their usual burst. Maybe you need guys with more endurance or more dawg in them. Maybe you need to trust Dean Wade and Isaac Okoro and CPJ and Tyson to eat a few minutes and just lay it all out there-- not full rotations, just quick sparks. Maybe you need Ty Jerome to develop some counters to when the other team gets his super-slow drives timed up. Maybe you need to hurry on fast breaks and not get your layup blocked. Maybe you need to make 4th quarter free throws when you're losing. Maybe you need to not give up a big lead in the last minute of a game. Maybe Evan Mobley needs to go up another level.

We had a chance this year. We lost. We have better lessons to learn this year than last. Let's see how good Indiana really is-- maybe they win the whole thing and we can say we lost to the champs two years in a row.

[JujitsuFlip]

We could trade Okoro for a backup center who could actually give us 5 minutes a half in the playoffs. I think Allen's a minute management guy who gets worn out, especially when Mobley misses a game due to injury or gets in foul trouble.

Exactly. We have too many wings and not enough bigs. It should really be Okoro, Merrill or Strus who goes.

Or we could just keep them and sign or draft a guy who has the body for the position. I would personally rather see an enforcer than a stretch 5. This will probably be a repeat of the late-2000s Cavs where they finally figure it out but it's too late (ie getting Shaq and Jamison to match up with Howard and Lewis). The postseason problems stifling the Cavs are big aggressive bodies like Mitchell Robinson, or what we just saw with Turner and Bryant; not the fact that we don't have a 5 that can shoot threes.

The issue is more that we couldn't run our usual offense. Their guards fought through screens, minimizing the advantages we'd usually get in the pick-and-roll game. We played tighter rotations and guys didn't have the energy to play both sides of the ball (and injuries didn't help), so you saw fewer and less effective actions on offense and too-slow rotations on defense. With less effective actions we took fewer open shots and gave up more open shots. So they shot a ton better than we did.

Maybe you just need more effective, less tired screeners. Maybe you need healthy ballhandlers who aren't missing their usual burst. Maybe you need guys with more endurance or more dawg in them. Maybe you need to trust Dean Wade and Isaac Okoro and CPJ and Tyson to eat a few minutes and just lay it all out there-- not full rotations, just quick sparks. Maybe you need Ty Jerome to develop some counters to when the other team gets his super-slow drives timed up. Maybe you need to hurry on fast breaks and not get your layup blocked. Maybe you need to make 4th quarter free throws when you're losing. Maybe you need to not give up a big lead in the last minute of a game. Maybe Evan Mobley needs to go up another level.

We had a chance this year. We lost. We have better lessons to learn this year than last. Let's see how good Indiana really is-- maybe they win the whole thing and we can say we lost to the champs two years in a row.

I think there's a high probability that Ty is not here next season. But yes whoever pays him, hopefully he can figure out a counter to his slo-mo game.

[toooskies]

Exactly. We have too many wings and not enough bigs. It should really be Okoro, Merrill or Strus who goes.

Or we could just keep them and sign or draft a guy who has the body for the position. I would personally rather see an enforcer than a stretch 5. This will probably be a repeat of the late-2000s Cavs where they finally figure it out but it's too late (ie getting Shaq and Jamison to match up with Howard and Lewis). The postseason problems stifling the Cavs are big aggressive bodies like Mitchell Robinson, or what we just saw with Turner and Bryant; not the fact that we don't have a 5 that can shoot threes.

The issue is more that we couldn't run our usual offense. Their guards fought through screens, minimizing the advantages we'd usually get in the pick-and-roll game. We played tighter rotations and guys didn't have the energy to play both sides of the ball (and injuries didn't help), so you saw fewer and less effective actions on offense and too-slow rotations on defense. With less effective actions we took fewer open shots and gave up more open shots. So they shot a ton better than we did.

Maybe you just need more effective, less tired screeners. Maybe you need healthy ballhandlers who aren't missing their usual burst. Maybe you need guys with more endurance or more dawg in them. Maybe you need to trust Dean Wade and Isaac Okoro and CPJ and Tyson to eat a few minutes and just lay it all out there-- not full rotations, just quick sparks. Maybe you need Ty Jerome to develop some counters to when the other team gets his super-slow drives timed up. Maybe you need to hurry on fast breaks and not get your layup blocked. Maybe you need to make 4th quarter free throws when you're losing. Maybe you need to not give up a big lead in the last minute of a game. Maybe Evan Mobley needs to go up another level.

We had a chance this year. We lost. We have better lessons to learn this year than last. Let's see how good Indiana really is-- maybe they win the whole thing and we can say we lost to the champs two years in a row.

I think there's a high probability that Ty is not here next season. But yes whoever pays him, hopefully he can figure out a counter to his slo-mo game.

Why do you think a GM will make a big offer to a 27 year-old guard with a short track record of performance as a low-minutes bench player who disappeared in the playoffs? Does Brooklyn offer $20m/year for a guy who hasn't proven he can be a playoff rotation player, let alone a starter?

[JujitsuFlip]

The issue is more that we couldn't run our usual offense. Their guards fought through screens, minimizing the advantages we'd usually get in the pick-and-roll game. We played tighter rotations and guys didn't have the energy to play both sides of the ball (and injuries didn't help), so you saw fewer and less effective actions on offense and too-slow rotations on defense. With less effective actions we took fewer open shots and gave up more open shots. So they shot a ton better than we did.

Maybe you just need more effective, less tired screeners. Maybe you need healthy ballhandlers who aren't missing their usual burst. Maybe you need guys with more endurance or more dawg in them. Maybe you need to trust Dean Wade and Isaac Okoro and CPJ and Tyson to eat a few minutes and just lay it all out there-- not full rotations, just quick sparks. Maybe you need Ty Jerome to develop some counters to when the other team gets his super-slow drives timed up. Maybe you need to hurry on fast breaks and not get your layup blocked. Maybe you need to make 4th quarter free throws when you're losing. Maybe you need to not give up a big lead in the last minute of a game. Maybe Evan Mobley needs to go up another level.

We had a chance this year. We lost. We have better lessons to learn this year than last. Let's see how good Indiana really is-- maybe they win the whole thing and we can say we lost to the champs two years in a row.

I think there's a high probability that Ty is not here next season. But yes whoever pays him, hopefully he can figure out a counter to his slo-mo game.

Why do you think a GM will make a big offer to a 27 year-old guard with a short track record of performance as a low-minutes bench player who disappeared in the playoffs? Does Brooklyn offer $20m/year for a guy who hasn't proven he can be a playoff rotation player, let alone a starter?

Because the NBA loves potetinal and 5 games won't erase the other 86.

Jerome and Merrill are probably going to get paid way more than the 2nd apron Cavs are comfortable coughing up.

[toooskies]

I think there's a high probability that Ty is not here next season. But yes whoever pays him, hopefully he can figure out a counter to his slo-mo game.

Why do you think a GM will make a big offer to a 27 year-old guard with a short track record of performance as a low-minutes bench player who disappeared in the playoffs? Does Brooklyn offer $20m/year for a guy who hasn't proven he can be a playoff rotation player, let alone a starter?

Because the NBA loves potetinal and 5 games won't erase the other 86.

Jerome and Merrill are probably going to get paid way more than the 2nd apron Cavs are comfortable coughing up.

Do you know of another 28 year old that got paid on potential?

Jerome turns 28 over the summer. Merrill turns 29 today.

[JujitsuFlip]

Why do you think a GM will make a big offer to a 27 year-old guard with a short track record of performance as a low-minutes bench player who disappeared in the playoffs? Does Brooklyn offer $20m/year for a guy who hasn't proven he can be a playoff rotation player, let alone a starter?

Because the NBA loves potetinal and 5 games won't erase the other 86.

Jerome and Merrill are probably going to get paid way more than the 2nd apron Cavs are comfortable coughing up.

Do you know of another 28 year old that got paid on potential?

Jerome turns 28 over the summer. Merrill turns 29 today.

They're both still due pay raises though.

For context, Jerome made $2.5 million this season and Merrill made $2.16 million this season.

Both guys are going to want a pay raise. Both guys were ahead of Okoro in our rotation. At minimum i assume they want Okoro type money.

Delly and Moz got paid once, i assume Ty and Merrill are going to leverage a 64 win season to get paid this lone time.

[jbk1234]

I'm pretty much done with Okoro. In a vacuum, $13M per is fine. He can help eat minutes and balance lineups in the regular season, but he's just not a net positive over extended run in the playoffs and a team over the second apron can't afford the premium for what he provides. You probably want to see if you can retain Green on a vet minimum first, but it's time to turn him into a thid big.

[JonFromVA]

Just a reminder that we have a wing with length, energy, and play making already on the team in Tyson. Tomlin is looking promising and might be the extra big we need. Not much to say about Okeke but he too may get a shot, and then of course we have Diop overseas. CPJ will gladly take Jerome's minutes at backup PG if he walks.

So we already have some options planned out for this, the question is will they step up and can we do better?

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm pretty much done with Okoro. In a vacuum, $13M per is fine. He can help eat minutes and balance lineups in the regular season, but he's just not a net positive over extended run in the playoffs and a team over the second apron can't afford the premium for what he provides. You probably want to see if you can retain Green on a vet minimum first, but it's time to turn him into a thid big.

That is an interesting angle, we know Koby will never do that. But just for the fun of it, let's examine all the bigs that do not make 1 penny over Okoro's $11 million next season. As a 2nd apron team, that is the only way a trade would be legal.

Mo Wagner
Wendell Carter Jr
Goga Bitadze
Xavier Tillman
Drew Timme
Noah Clowney
Drummond
Adem Bona
Yves Missi
Jay Huff
Edey
Duren
Simone Fontecchio
Paul Reed
Tony Bradley
Ariel Hukporti
Mark Williams
Moussa Diabaté
Jalen Smith
Tyler Smith
Luka Garza
Nikola Jović
Jock Landale
Lively
Dwight Powell
Sochan
Nick Richards
Oso Ighodaro
Walker Kessler
Kyle Filipowski
Taylor Hendricks
Duop Reath
Donovan Clingan
Jonas Valančiūnas
DaRon Holmes
Trayce Jackson-Davis
Quinten Post
Maxi Kleber
Drew Eubanks
Jaylin Williams
Ousmane Dieng

There are for sure a few interesting names on the list, do any scratch your itch?

[toooskies]

They're both still due pay raises though.

For context, Jerome made $2.5 million this season and Merrill made $2.16 million this season.

Both guys are going to want a pay raise. Both guys were ahead of Okoro in our rotation. At minimum i assume they want Okoro type money.

Delly and Moz got paid once, i assume Ty and Merrill are going to leverage a 64 win season to get paid this lone time.

They're due pay raises but I think paying them for their current performance (iffy playoff rotation guys) puts them right around the MLE for most teams. I think they're both palatable re-signs.

There is a question of how much Dan Gilbert is going to pay in luxury tax for expendable players, and I would not be surprised to see any of those two (or Okoro) go to make room for Tyson, CPJ, or ring chasers.

I'm pretty much done with Okoro. In a vacuum, $13M per is fine. He can help eat minutes and balance lineups in the regular season, but he's just not a net positive over extended run in the playoffs and a team over the second apron can't afford the premium for what he provides. You probably want to see if you can retain Green on a vet minimum first, but it's time to turn him into a thid big.

"just not a net positive" except Okoro had a positive plus-minus in every one of the games we lost to Indiana (in the low single digits except for game 4 garbage time, to save you some time looking it up) and led the rotation players in plus-minus in round 2.

We just watched how effective good screen navigation can be in mucking up an offense, and Okoro is the best player on our team at that. I'm still of the belief that he's under-utilized even if he's not an offensive threat-- particularly if our playoff offense devolves into hero-ball isos.

I'm tired of the spread-the-floor argument against Okoro because even with being 2nd in the regular season in 3-point shooting (percentage-wise behind Milwaukee and in number of makes behind Boston) we still were dared to shoot 3s in the playoffs and we still missed them.

But as long as the coaching staff doesn't buy into Okoro, we probably have to see what Tyson can do with more run.

[jbk1234]

I'll just stick to Okoro so as to avoid mega thread. The most minutes he played (16) was in game 4. Okoro the one who committed the stupid end of quarter foul on Haliburton that gave him three shots at the foul line. Haliburton scored 31 points on 10 for 15 shooting. Navigating screens is great, but if a player like Hali can take a step back and still shoot over you, it doesn't really matter.

Okoro's presence on the floor allowed the Pacers to change how they were defending the entire team. He scored 2 points in 16 minutes on only 2 shots and had a turnover despite limited usage. There really isn't an offense you can run for Okoro once the defense has decided to pince down.

Also, zero rebounds in 16 minutes.

[JonFromVA]

I'm curious what Kenny will have Isaac doing during the off-season. Tyson needs to keep working on his ball handling too.

And I hope we look at our draft scouting very carefully because we could have drafted Haliburton/Nesmith and Nembard rather than Okoro and Agbaji.

[JujitsuFlip]

I'll just stick to Okoro so as to avoid mega thread. The most minutes he played (16) was in game 4. Okoro the one who committed the stupid end of quarter foul on Haliburton that gave him three shots at the foul line. Haliburton scored 31 points on 10 for 15 shooting. Navigating screens is great, but if a player like Hali can take a step back and still shoot over you, it doesn't really matter.

Okoro's presence on the floor allowed the Pacers to change how they were defending the entire team. He scored 2 points in 16 minutes on only 2 shots and had a turnover despite limited usage. There really isn't an offense you can run for Okoro once the defense has decided to pince down.

Also, zero rebounds in 16 minutes.

I'm with you. Guys still shooting over Okoro drives me absolutely bonkers. I wish we didn't re-sign him but here we are.

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm curious what Kenny will have Isaac doing during the off-season. Tyson needs to keep working on his ball handling too.

And I hope we look at our draft scouting very carefully because we could have drafted Haliburton/Nesmith and Nembard rather than Okoro and Agbaji.

I want their 2nd round scouting to be better. I know we find undrafted guys but pick 49 and 58 should not just be thrown away, imo.

5 year project guys are cool... When you're not trying to win a title.

[jbk1234]

I'm pretty much done with Okoro. In a vacuum, $13M per is fine. He can help eat minutes and balance lineups in the regular season, but he's just not a net positive over extended run in the playoffs and a team over the second apron can't afford the premium for what he provides. You probably want to see if you can retain Green on a vet minimum first, but it's time to turn him into a thid big.

That is an interesting angle, we know Koby will never do that. But just for the fun of it, let's examine all the bigs that do not make 1 penny over Okoro's $11 million next season. As a 2nd apron team, that is the only way a trade would be legal.

Mo Wagner
Wendell Carter Jr
Goga Bitadze
Xavier Tillman
Drew Timme
Noah Clowney
Drummond
Adem Bona
Yves Missi
Jay Huff
Edey
Duren
Simone Fontecchio
Paul Reed
Tony Bradley
Ariel Hukporti
Mark Williams
Moussa Diabaté
Jalen Smith
Tyler Smith
Luka Garza
Nikola Jović
Jock Landale
Lively
Dwight Powell
Sochan
Nick Richards
Oso Ighodaro
Walker Kessler
Kyle Filipowski
Taylor Hendricks
Duop Reath
Donovan Clingan
Jonas Valančiūnas
DaRon Holmes
Trayce Jackson-Davis
Quinten Post
Maxi Kleber
Drew Eubanks
Jaylin Williams
Ousmane Dieng

There are for sure a few interesting names on the list, do any scratch your itch?

I see a lot of names I like, but some of these guys are simply worth more in a trade and others our on teams that don't really have a need for Okoro. Maybe a three team trade with Orlando works out if the team trading for their big keeps them in the dark. I suspect that just as I'm disinclined to fix the Magic by trading them Garland, the Magic won't be too keen on helping the Cavs out.