WCSF Game 5, 5/14: Warriors at Timberwolves, 8:30 pm

[winforlose]

I think if you said before playoffs the Wolves were going to advance to the Western Conference Finals after winning the first two rounds in 5 games each, most would think the Wolves overachieved, not underachieved.

I did say it, months ago, in multiple threads. I know the positivity thread for sure. We are too talented not to advance. Outside of OKC we have depth or matchups advantages up and down the roster. Jaden has playoff mode, Ant has playoff mode. DDV was supposed to have playoff mode. Rudy is a machine when he gets going. This was always supposed to happen. In what world were LAL or GSW with small ball ever going to be able to match up with us? In what world could they guard Ant? Overachieved? we haven’t even played our best ball in half the games much less played above it.

Your expectations are one thing, but everyone else expected us to lose to the Lakers. I don't know, these other teams are talented and trying to win too. And we beat them relatively easily, but apparently not easily enough?

The talking heads picked Luka because Luka cooked us in the WCF last year. They picked Bron because he was Bron. They didn’t even know what Jaden could do game after game. They said Rudy cannot defend small ball, and that Randle sucks in the playoffs (as though by magic.) They don’t watch us, so of course they can accurately predict us. We saw this team last year, we saw this team when it was good. We also saw the consistent mistakes that often related to coaching. I don’t know why you would think either LAL or GSW could hang with us, but that was never likely.

[Worm Guts]

I did say it, months ago, in multiple threads. I know the positivity thread for sure. We are too talented not to advance. Outside of OKC we have depth or matchups advantages up and down the roster. Jaden has playoff mode, Ant has playoff mode. DDV was supposed to have playoff mode. Rudy is a machine when he gets going. This was always supposed to happen. In what world were LAL or GSW with small ball ever going to be able to match up with us? In what world could they guard Ant? Overachieved? we haven’t even played our best ball in half the games much less played above it.

Your expectations are one thing, but everyone else expected us to lose to the Lakers. I don't know, these other teams are talented and trying to win too. And we beat them relatively easily, but apparently not easily enough?

The talking heads picked Luka because Luka cooked us in the WCF last year. They picked Bron because he was Bron. They didn’t even know what Jaden could do game after game. They said Rudy cannot defend small ball, and that Randle sucks in the playoffs (as though by magic.)

All those reasons were valid on some level. Luka did cook us last year, Bron is an all-time great, Rudy has been played off the floor at time in the playoffs, and Randle sucked in the playoffs (or at least shot poorly) before he got here. So why did so many of those things change during this year's playoffs? Is that coaching?

[life_saver]

We had 20+ turnovers 3 games in a row, we had another 4th quarter collapse where a 21 point lead broke down to 9 and we had to trade baskets for over 5 competitive minutes. We had to play Ant, Jaden, and Randle over 41 minutes to close out a game where we got out rebounded 18 to 6 on the offensive glass. We also allowed Kuminga and Podz to score 54 on us. None of this screams great coaching. We make these mistakes because our players don’t have a system to fall back on and make stupid choices. We also have both games (Lakers 2, Warriors 1,) and quarters (Game 4 and game 5 Q4,) where we play with our food and let go of the rope. Finch is not the mastermind that is leading us to wins. Finch is the guy everyone ignores and does whatever they feel like.

20 pt leads aren't that safe these days...we have seen this in playoffs this year where defending champions lost in 2 straight home games after having 20+ pt leads...Cavs with COTY ended up blowing 25 pt lead in elimination game. I think we have to realize that just like in RS, its not easy to be consistent every game in playoffs. Especially when they have now had like 5 games in span of 8 days. Wolves did what they have to do in this series without suffering too many injuries and wasting too much energy. Ant yesterday wasn't playing at his full level...you can see it based on his screen navigation. I am not Finch's biggest fan but I am not gonna blame him for everything.

Also fair enough. That said, do you believe that the Wolves have been playing particularly good basketball? Do you believe they have been making good decisions, limiting turnovers, finding ways to generate consistently good offensive process, and playing a sustainable game that wins against WCF and NBA finals opponents? I think we have been playing down to bad teams. I think our true ceiling is well above us, and I think a great coach raises our floor so that the ceiling isn’t so far away.

I don't think Wolves are playing great basketball but they are doing what's required. We have seen this in RS too...this team rarely blows away opponents even when they are missing their best players. They build up big leads, then play relaxed and then wake up again when the lead is trimmed down. I think this has more to do with Ant than Finch. You see clips like this...it just feels like team doesn't play with full effort in some games depending on opponent.

Read on Twitter

Regarding Finch, I posted on the board multiple times during RS that Wolves shouldn't hesitate to upgrade if they suffer early exit in playoffs. But I am now okay with continuing Finch for another season as long as team doesn't **** the bed in WCF. I think one big positive thing with Finch so far is that the team has mostly overperformed in playoffs. The team has won 3 series in 2 year span where they were underdogs, going up against teams led by ATG players...I think that counts for something. With how comfortable players are with Finch (which is probably the most important thing for NBA coaches these days) and how Ant repeatedly says how Finch shows tough love during film sessions, I feel like it might not be easy to upgrade from Finch as of now.

[winforlose]

Your expectations are one thing, but everyone else expected us to lose to the Lakers. I don't know, these other teams are talented and trying to win too. And we beat them relatively easily, but apparently not easily enough?

The talking heads picked Luka because Luka cooked us in the WCF last year. They picked Bron because he was Bron. They didn’t even know what Jaden could do game after game. They said Rudy cannot defend small ball, and that Randle sucks in the playoffs (as though by magic.)

All those reasons were valid on some level. Luka did cook us last year, Bron is an all-time great, Rudy has been played off the floor at time in the playoffs, and Randle sucked in the playoffs (or at least shot poorly) before he got here. So why did so many of those things change during this year's playoffs? Is that coaching?

All of these were bad takes. Rudy wasn’t played off the floor, he got no help on the perimeter. Bron is 40. He may be playing great at 40, but he cannot take the same work load as when he was 30. Luka didn’t cook us, the Mavs did. Kyrie was sensational, they had size and defense, Karl was hurt (KCP and Murray both fell into his knee in games 5 and 7 respectively,) and Ant had the bad fall in game 6 against Denver and had 5 straight bad games after. What changed is Ant, Jaden, and a solid defensive core played against small teams that were not on their level. We should have been the two seed and competed for the one seed. Without the bad losses do you think we are under 55 wins?

[winforlose]

20 pt leads aren't that safe these days...we have seen this in playoffs this year where defending champions lost in 2 straight home games after having 20+ pt leads...Cavs with COTY ended up blowing 25 pt lead in elimination game. I think we have to realize that just like in RS, its not easy to be consistent every game in playoffs. Especially when they have now had like 5 games in span of 8 days. Wolves did what they have to do in this series without suffering too many injuries and wasting too much energy. Ant yesterday wasn't playing at his full level...you can see it based on his screen navigation. I am not Finch's biggest fan but I am not gonna blame him for everything.

Also fair enough. That said, do you believe that the Wolves have been playing particularly good basketball? Do you believe they have been making good decisions, limiting turnovers, finding ways to generate consistently good offensive process, and playing a sustainable game that wins against WCF and NBA finals opponents? I think we have been playing down to bad teams. I think our true ceiling is well above us, and I think a great coach raises our floor so that the ceiling isn’t so far away.

I don't think Wolves are playing great basketball but they are doing what's required. We have seen this in RS too...this team rarely blows away opponents even when they are missing their best players. They build up big leads, then play relaxed and then wake up again when the lead is trimmed down. I think this has more to do with Ant than Finch. You see clips like this...it just feels like team doesn't play with full effort in some games depending on opponent.

Read on Twitter

Regarding Finch, I posted on the board multiple times during RS that Wolves shouldn't hesitate to upgrade if they suffer early exit in playoffs. But I am now okay with continuing Finch for another season as long as team doesn't **** the bed in WCF. I think one big positive thing with Finch so far is that the team has mostly overperformed in playoffs. The team has won 3 series in 2 year span where they were underdogs, going up against teams led by ATG players...I think that counts for something. With how comfortable players are with Finch (which is probably the most important thing for NBA coaches these days) and how Ant repeatedly says how Finch shows tough love during film sessions, I feel like it might not be easy to upgrade from Finch as of now.

You saw in game 2 of the first series and game one of the second a disinterested Wolves team. You saw in game 5 of the Lakers series and most of game 3 of the Warriors series a poor performing Wolves team. 4 out of 10 games I would say we were unprepared or significantly underprepared to play. Some of that is definitely on the guys. But you don’t see that nearly as often with legendary coaches. We should be the 1 or 2 seed. We should have a lot more regular season wins. We won 49 with more clutch losses than any other team and a ton of bad losses against teams who either had no business competing or were missing a lot of talent. We had so many 20+ point lost quarters. These kinds of things point to a problem. With our talent level, I have a hard time seeing it being on everybody but the coach.

[BlacJacMac]

W4L, did you watch any other series besides ours?

I saw every single criticism you have of us in every other team. I’ve watched, what most consider, 3 or 4 of the best coaches in the game make absolutely mind numbing decisions that actually cost their team games.

It’s not a video game where every player plays “to their stats” every game.

[life_saver]

Only concerning thing is the rise in turnovers in last 3 games..I feel like some of that is down team playing sloppy once they got big leads but still wish it was low. From G1 vs Lakers until G2 vs Warriors, Wolves averaged only around 10 turnover per game but in last 3 games, it has risen to 18 turnovers per game. Need to really keep that low against a team like OKC who has so many pesky defenders

[Rookie-Mistake]

We need to temporarily enjoy the series win rather than get into the weeds about what we should've done.
Enjoy wolves fans, get out of the weeds and soak up the playoff juice

Sent from my SM-G991B using RealGM mobile app

[TimberKat]

Did not see much today the grumpy posters saying Rudy is bad, Mike washed, Randle lazy..., they probably on vacation

I don't see the fans wanting to fire Finch, either.

We had 20+ turnovers 3 games in a row, we had another 4th quarter collapse where a 21 point lead broke down to 9 and we had to trade baskets for over 5 competitive minutes. We had to play Ant, Jaden, and Randle over 41 minutes to close out a game where we got out rebounded 18 to 6 on the offensive glass. We also allowed Kuminga and Podz to score 54 on us. None of this screams great coaching. We make these mistakes because our players don’t have a system to fall back on and make stupid choices. We also have both games (Lakers 2, Warriors 1,) and quarters (Game 4 and game 5 Q4,) where we play with our food and let go of the rope. Finch is not the mastermind that is leading us to wins. Finch is the guy everyone ignores and does whatever they feel like.

I want to change the the conversation a little. All the things mentioned are issues we need to fix in order to beat OKC (or DEN). We can't be sloppy and turnover the ball. We have to find the open man. It's up to the players to execute. However, what can coach do to make it easier for the players? Are we going to waste game one again and hope SGA gets hurt or get food poison? We know OKC very well. Can we be more prepared? The next series is going to be twice as difficult. Does the team have the focused mind set?

[shrink]

We have one of if not the most talented teams in basketball. We have one of if not the deepest teams in basketball. I am not saying we suck, I am saying Finch isn’t a great coach. There is evidence of this all over the regular season and playoffs this year and last year. Anyone given a sports car can drive fast. Not everyone can be a professional race car driver, much less an elite one. Finch is a mid tier coach with influence over these guys. But they don’t listen or execute his game plan consistently, and he cannot motivate them to be ready to play every game.

I really don't agree with this. Wolves have a good roster but its not even close to being most talented roster. Celtics, OKC have more talented rosters than Wolves.

I agree. The reason we can have “eight starters” is because we only have one deserving of a max deal.

If you annoint all the players as extremely talented, and annoint every prospect as a future rotation player or better, then you are left to determine any team flaws must come from the coach.

We have a team that has over-performed, and won playoff series as underdogs in two straight years. Share the credit.

[shrink]

And come on. Can’t we just enjoy the win today?

[KGdaBom]

We have a talented team. I'm not sure we have such a talented team that people expect us to win 65 games and a championship. We won a similar amount of games as a lot of other talented teams in the West and we've managed to advance in the playoffs. I think we've done relatively well compared to expectations.

Teams in the west from 3 to 8 were bunched within a couple of wins. Our Wolves were within a game of 3rd. If we hadn't got off to a very slow start we would have finished 2nd in the west. The playoffs we are west finalist. Maybe west champion or NBA champion.

[winforlose]

We have one of if not the most talented teams in basketball. We have one of if not the deepest teams in basketball. I am not saying we suck, I am saying Finch isn’t a great coach. There is evidence of this all over the regular season and playoffs this year and last year. Anyone given a sports car can drive fast. Not everyone can be a professional race car driver, much less an elite one. Finch is a mid tier coach with influence over these guys. But they don’t listen or execute his game plan consistently, and he cannot motivate them to be ready to play every game.

I really don't agree with this. Wolves have a good roster but its not even close to being most talented roster. Celtics, OKC have more talented rosters than Wolves.

I agree. The reason we can have “eight starters” is because we only have one deserving of a max deal.

If you annoint all the players as extremely talented, and annoint every prospect as a future rotation player or better, then you are left to determine any team flaws must come from the coach.

We have a team that has over-performed, and won playoff series as underdogs in two straight years. Share the credit.

Wow, huge flag on this. I would go so far as to SCREAM BULL SHI*. Do you think NAW is having a solid playoffs? Mike’s shooting has been terrible before last night. DDV has been slumping hard (contributing in other ways.) Rudy is averaging like 4 or 5 points outside of game 5s. What in the world are you talking about when you say we are over performing? Jaden and Rudy are both all NBA defense players, Randle is playing like an all NBA and in that regard I will grant you he is over performing. But outside of Randle I would say we are on or below par with expectations. That is my point. Finch hasn’t got them close to their ceiling yet. Individually or collectively. I think a big part of that and the turnovers/sloppiness is not having a system to make things easier. You watch and we hit a lot of tough shots. Other teams have ways of getting easier looks. I will say that Finch has done a good job of building a culture in which guys don’t pout when they don’t play. But he is still a poor game manager (let the lead go down to 9 before taking a timeout,) poor player manager, (guys like him, but often ignore him,) and an overall very flawed coach.

It is also important to remember I started the faith in Finch thread years ago. I credited Finch with the defensive turn around in 21/22 as well as the improvements in offensive efficiency in 20/21 after Finch came in. I had high hopes for Finch. But my opinion on him has soured over the years. I see the things go wrong each year, I see the locker room is more about the guys then the coach. I see the culture breakdowns at times (Rudy/Randle Toronto, or Rudy and Kyle blowup while Jaden punches a wall.) This team is long, athletic l, defensive focused at multiple positions, and has guys who are underrated on offense. It should win playoff series regardless of coaching. But I honestly ask you, do we get enough from coaching to help these guys reach their ceiling or at least consistently elevate their floors?

[Rookie-Mistake]

Bro... go have a pepsi and enjoy the win this is getting silly

Sent from my SM-G991B using RealGM mobile app

[KGdaBom]

Your expectations are one thing, but everyone else expected us to lose to the Lakers. I don't know, these other teams are talented and trying to win too. And we beat them relatively easily, but apparently not easily enough?

The talking heads picked Luka because Luka cooked us in the WCF last year. They picked Bron because he was Bron. They didn’t even know what Jaden could do game after game. They said Rudy cannot defend small ball, and that Randle sucks in the playoffs (as though by magic.)

All those reasons were valid on some level. Luka did cook us last year, Bron is an all-time great, Rudy has been played off the floor at time in the playoffs, and Randle sucked in the playoffs (or at least shot poorly) before he got here. So why did so many of those things change during this year's playoffs? Is that coaching?

Randle's finally becoming a winning player rather than just a ball hogging stat hoarder is a testament to Finch.

[KGdaBom]

W4L, did you watch any other series besides ours?

I saw every single criticism you have of us in every other team. I’ve watched, what most consider, 3 or 4 of the best coaches in the game make absolutely mind numbing decisions that actually cost their team games.

It’s not a video game where every player plays “to their stats” every game.

Great post BlacJacMac. As fans of the Wolves we see all of our flaws more than we see the flaws in other teams. It's natural. W4L there is no question that if you take a good look at every other team as much as you do the Wolves you will be able to rip them to shreds including their coaches.

[KGdaBom]

Only concerning thing is the rise in turnovers in last 3 games..I feel like some of that is down team playing sloppy once they got big leads but still wish it was low. From G1 vs Lakers until G2 vs Warriors, Wolves averaged only around 10 turnover per game but in last 3 games, it has risen to 18 turnovers per game. Need to really keep that low against a team like OKC who has so many pesky defenders

The recent rise in TOs is probably the most concerning thing, but our improved shooting has made up for it. Could it be that we are playing more loose leading to both more TOs, but better shooting?

[winforlose]

The talking heads picked Luka because Luka cooked us in the WCF last year. They picked Bron because he was Bron. They didn’t even know what Jaden could do game after game. They said Rudy cannot defend small ball, and that Randle sucks in the playoffs (as though by magic.)

All those reasons were valid on some level. Luka did cook us last year, Bron is an all-time great, Rudy has been played off the floor at time in the playoffs, and Randle sucked in the playoffs (or at least shot poorly) before he got here. So why did so many of those things change during this year's playoffs? Is that coaching?

Randle's finally becoming a winning player rather than just a ball hogging stat hoarder is a testament to Finch.

I will grant you Finch telling him to be a Point Forward has helped. That is probably the best argument for Chris Finch’s performance. But Randle hitting 40+% percent of his open 3s and making tough shots in the paint is Randle. He is not usually this consistent and that is what scares me about paying him real money. The 35/40 range is usually reserved for players we can safely assume are consistent in playing at this level, and I fear Randle is not.

[winforlose]

By popular demand I will shut up about Finch and enjoy the win. Let us all join together in rooting for Denver to clear our path to the finals.

[KGdaBom]

All those reasons were valid on some level. Luka did cook us last year, Bron is an all-time great, Rudy has been played off the floor at time in the playoffs, and Randle sucked in the playoffs (or at least shot poorly) before he got here. So why did so many of those things change during this year's playoffs? Is that coaching?

Randle's finally becoming a winning player rather than just a ball hogging stat hoarder is a testament to Finch.

I will grant you Finch telling him to be a Point Forward has helped. That is probably the best argument for Chris Finch’s performance. But Randle hitting 40+% percent of his open 3s and making tough shots in the paint is Randle. He is not usually this consistent and that is what scares me about paying him real money. The 35/40 range is usually reserved for players we can safely assume are consistent in playing at this level, and I fear Randle is not.

He was a Point Forward in NO and his first years in NY, but he was accumulating stats not wins. He's playing a completely different brand of basketball now.