Pairing Scottie with Giannis is like pairing Bosh with Jermaine O'Neal

[M3tro]

Nobody is coming to Toronto to play with Brandon Ingram.

The delusions need to stop.

You're making it sound like Ingram is some bum off the street.

Dude is much better than Middleton and Giannis won a title with the latter.

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

[YogurtProducer]

Ignoring the fact you don’t get Giannis and keep Scottie, but this is also a bad analogy.

Giannis is 10 times the player Bosh was, and Scottie is artuably better than washed O’Neal

Barnes/Giannis as a 4-5 combo is fine.

Why would the Bucks entertain any package without getting back Barnes in return?

You think RJ and a bunch of picks is an enticing trade package?

Do you think before you post?

I wanna know why they allow people from Saskatchewan to post on basketball forums anyways.

What on earth Ru getting at, the opening sentence says you don't get Giannis without Barnes...

Ru okay?

It's alright. I am just a dumb Saskatchewanian who doesn't know ball. But at least I can read.

[Matty]

Nobody is coming to Toronto to play with Brandon Ingram.

The delusions need to stop.

You're making it sound like Ingram is some bum off the street.

Dude is much better than Middleton and Giannis won a title with the latter.

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

Solid No.2 lol what does that even mean? On a bad team Ingram put up numbers you think he couldn't do it with Giannia taking all the focus?

[YogurtProducer]

Nobody is coming to Toronto to play with Brandon Ingram.

The delusions need to stop.

You're making it sound like Ingram is some bum off the street.

Dude is much better than Middleton and Giannis won a title with the latter.

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

What would Middleton have won as a #1 if he never had Giannis? How would Ingrams career have looked in he had 8 years next to Giannis in his prime?

Ingram and Middleton are very similar players. In al honesty in a vacuum Ingram is likely better.

[kalel123]

Pretty sure Bosh/O'Neal pairing's biggest issue wasn't the fit. Dude was done before he even got here. If snake oil salesman convinced you otherwise at the time, that's on you.

Yup. Not the only time the Raptors ended up chasing washed up former star big ma.

Lol here come the hype-happy takes.

There is less than 10% chance Cooper flagg is EVER a better player than Giannis will be next season. (Nevermind when he was 28)

Ppl really hate on any player over the age of 22 lol.

We have others saying Giannis can't play defense anymore. Hilarious.

You do realize these comments have nothing to do with Giannis? Was only commenting on the Bosh/O'Neal pairing. And the reply to that was referring to other failed attempts like Olajuwon for instance, again nothing to do with Giannis. Or Cooper Flagg.

[M3tro]

You're making it sound like Ingram is some bum off the street.

Dude is much better than Middleton and Giannis won a title with the latter.

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

What would Middleton have won as a #1 if he never had Giannis? How would Ingrams career have looked in he had 8 years next to Giannis in his prime?

Ingram and Middleton are very similar players. In al honesty in a vacuum Ingram is likely better.

Prove it.

It's easy to say a player is capable of XYZ, but until it happens it's all speculation.

[tecumseh18]

Players change. Often they get better, or adapt their games depending on their teammates. Miami Bosh would be a perfect complement to JO, who when he was in Toronto was a guy who could guard TD man-to-man. He wasn't washed with us, and helped the Heat to the playoffs after the Matrix trade.

Before the early season injury this season, Scottie looked like he was improving his shot. Hell, brook Lopez didn't look like he was going to be DPOY sharp-shooter heading into his 30s.

Anyway, I sure won't be upset if this somehow transpires, without Scottie going the other way.

[YogurtProducer]

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

What would Middleton have won as a #1 if he never had Giannis? How would Ingrams career have looked in he had 8 years next to Giannis in his prime?

Ingram and Middleton are very similar players. In al honesty in a vacuum Ingram is likely better.

Prove it.

It's easy to say a player is capable of XYZ, but until it happens it's all speculation.

I guess we can confidently say Middleton is better than Charles Barkley with that logic.

Middleton peaked as a 20/6/5 on 62TS%. A great season as a supporting player as the #2.

Ingram has a 24/6/4 on 59TS% under his belt as the #1. No Giannis to take pressure off him. All he had was Zion play 24 games, and weirdly enough Jrue Holiday (so the same #3 as Middleton had).

I think you can pretty easily say if you put Ingram on those Bucks teams instead of Middleton the Bucks get no worse, and arguably get a better scorer and better fit with Giannis.

[YogurtProducer]

You're making it sound like Ingram is some bum off the street.

Dude is much better than Middleton and Giannis won a title with the latter.

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

Solid No.2 lol what does that even mean? On a bad team Ingram put up numbers you think he couldn't do it with Giannia taking all the focus?

Ingram still put up 21/5/6 on a 49 win NOP team literally in 2024.

[ConSarnit]

Ignoring the fact you don’t get Giannis and keep Scottie, but this is also a bad analogy.

Giannis is 10 times the player Bosh was, and Scottie is artuably better than washed O’Neal

Barnes/Giannis as a 4-5 combo is fine.

I think it would depend on a few factors. Would Giannis want to play C full-time? It would definitely make roster construction easier and mitigate some spacing issues. I still don’t think the Barnes/Giannis fit is ideal given that we’ve seen what high level success looks like with Giannis (ie. always playing with a spacing big). On the off chance that we’d actually be able to keep Barnes (doubtful) I’d give it a run with Giannis/Barnes at the 4/5 but I feel like we might have to pivot. I don’t like the idea of having 2 players marginalize each other because neither can shoot. If you’re going to have stars I think you want to maximize their talent and this doesn’t do that for either Barnes or Giannis.

[YogurtProducer]

Ignoring the fact you don’t get Giannis and keep Scottie, but this is also a bad analogy.

Giannis is 10 times the player Bosh was, and Scottie is artuably better than washed O’Neal

Barnes/Giannis as a 4-5 combo is fine.

I think it would depend on a few factors. Would Giannis want to play C full-time? It would definitely make roster construction easier and mitigate some spacing issues. I still don’t think the Barnes/Giannis fit is ideal given that we’ve seen what high level success looks like with Giannis (ie. always playing with a spacing big). On the off chance that we’d actually be able to keep Barnes (doubtful) I’d give it a run with Giannis/Barnes at the 4/5 but I feel like we might have to pivot. I don’t like the idea of having 2 players marginalize each other because neither can shoot. If you’re going to have stars I think you want to maximize their talent and this doesn’t do that for either Barnes or Giannis.

The way I see it is that it really is not overly different than Anthony Davis at the 4.

I think you can away with a Barnes/Giannis 4/5 combo if you have plus shooters at the 1/2/3. IQ at the 1 is fine. Ingram at the 3 is still a 37% guy. If you can get the 2 guard to be a high volume 3 point guy you probably survive. Agbaji if he truly is a 39% type guy could be the dude.

Barnes/Giannis as a 4/5 combo defensively is absolutely lethal. IQ/Agbaji/Ingram/Barnes/Giannis is a very good lineup. Shead/Walter/Battle/Mogob/Boucher is also the making of a solid bench. Hopefully you could grab a vet min guy as well as backup C.

Giannis has always been with Lopez, but IMO Lopez has always been a pretty meh player when it mattered. He has shot 33% from 3 in the playoffs with MIL, and only 31.9% in the championship year. The volume / percentage combo was never there with Lopez for it to really scare a defense all that much. I think Barnes as a initiator, cutter, etc. can provide just as much offensive value to Giannis as Lopez did.

There also is the hope that you clean up Scotties shot diet and with a more defined role (#3 option behind Giannis and Ingram) that his %'s benefit.

SCotties catch and shoot was abysmal last year (28%). But in 2023-24 they were great (39%). So you do hope there is some untapped C+S 3 potential from Scottie that maybe if he was relegated to only taking those he would see his %'s skyrocket.


Edit: Lopez is also a FA this off-season. If Giannis got moved here it doesn't seem crazy to think Lopez might follow and sign a cheap deal here.

[ConSarnit]

You're making it sound like Ingram is some bum off the street.

Dude is much better than Middleton and Giannis won a title with the latter.

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

What would Middleton have won as a #1 if he never had Giannis? How would Ingrams career have looked in he had 8 years next to Giannis in his prime?

Ingram and Middleton are very similar players. In al honesty in a vacuum Ingram is likely better.

Probably depends on what you’re looking for. I’d have Middleton as a slightly better pnr player and a better defender. Ingram a slightly better scorer. I have them very close in level of player. Obviously it’s unprovable but you give Middleton 2-3 more FGA and he’s probably putting up almost the exact same scoring stats as Ingram. Put Ingram in a better, higher pressure spot and maybe he ups his defense. Couldn’t really fault anyone for picking one over the other but I’d probably slightly favor Ingram as I think he could probably carry your offense more if forced into it.

[YogurtProducer]

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

What would Middleton have won as a #1 if he never had Giannis? How would Ingrams career have looked in he had 8 years next to Giannis in his prime?

Ingram and Middleton are very similar players. In al honesty in a vacuum Ingram is likely better.

Probably depends on what you’re looking for. I’d have Middleton as a slightly better pnr player and a better defender. Ingram a slightly better scorer. I have them very close in level of player. Obviously it’s unprovable but you give Middleton 2-3 more FGA and he’s probably putting up almost the exact same scoring stats as Ingram. Put Ingram in a better, higher pressure spot and maybe he ups his defense. Couldn’t really fault anyone for picking one over the other but I’d probably slightly favor Ingram as I think he could probably carry your offense more if forced into it.

That is where I stand as well. Middleton gets a lot of easy looks from Giannis taking a lot of attention away. Ingram has always been the guy who gets the attention.

[PerfectJab]

How is this the same? Every player mentioned are different from each other and the only similarity is the position they play and that they're all tall.

[ConSarnit]

Ignoring the fact you don’t get Giannis and keep Scottie, but this is also a bad analogy.

Giannis is 10 times the player Bosh was, and Scottie is artuably better than washed O’Neal

Barnes/Giannis as a 4-5 combo is fine.

I think it would depend on a few factors. Would Giannis want to play C full-time? It would definitely make roster construction easier and mitigate some spacing issues. I still don’t think the Barnes/Giannis fit is ideal given that we’ve seen what high level success looks like with Giannis (ie. always playing with a spacing big). On the off chance that we’d actually be able to keep Barnes (doubtful) I’d give it a run with Giannis/Barnes at the 4/5 but I feel like we might have to pivot. I don’t like the idea of having 2 players marginalize each other because neither can shoot. If you’re going to have stars I think you want to maximize their talent and this doesn’t do that for either Barnes or Giannis.

The way I see it is that it really is not overly different than Anthony Davis at the 4.

I think you can away with a Barnes/Giannis 4/5 combo if you have plus shooters at the 1/2/3. IQ at the 1 is fine. Ingram at the 3 is still a 37% guy. If you can get the 2 guard to be a high volume 3 point guy you probably survive. Agbaji if he truly is a 39% type guy could be the dude.

Barnes/Giannis as a 4/5 combo defensively is absolutely lethal. IQ/Agbaji/Ingram/Barnes/Giannis is a very good lineup. Shead/Walter/Battle/Mogob/Boucher is also the making of a solid bench. Hopefully you could grab a vet min guy as well as backup C.

Giannis has always been with Lopez, but IMO Lopez has always been a pretty meh player when it mattered. He has shot 33% from 3 in the playoffs with MIL, and only 31.9% in the championship year. The volume / percentage combo was never there with Lopez for it to really scare a defense all that much. I think Barnes as a initiator, cutter, etc. can provide just as much offensive value to Giannis as Lopez did.

There also is the hope that you clean up Scotties shot diet and with a more defined role (#3 option behind Giannis and Ingram) that his %'s benefit.

SCotties catch and shoot was abysmal last year (28%). But in 2023-24 they were great (39%). So you do hope there is some untapped C+S 3 potential from Scottie that maybe if he was relegated to only taking those he would see his %'s skyrocket.

I think having to respect a shooter plays a big factor into Lopez role. Teams absolutely had to guard him even if he wasn’t hitting shots. That had a lot of value. I think Barnes is getting to the “no respect” point as a 3pt shooter and that likely means putting a C on him in the playoffs and that causes a lot of problems. If he can re-find his 2023 form this mitigates some of this but I’m still a firm believer that teams are going to put Barnes shooting to the test (assuming we make the playoffs next year). Hopefully he can get to passable as a wide open shooter.

As far as the idea of cutting goes:

2024/25 stats:

Lopez: 1.5 possessions per game, 1.53ppp

Barnes: 1.1 possessions, 1.20ppp

Barnes has not exactly shown much as a cutter in his career. It’s always been a small part of his game. Not saying he can’t improve but I don’t know how much it will scale up over what Lopez has done. The attention Giannis draws would definitely help.

Edit: I also think the idea of Davis at the 4 isn’t going to work. He was effectively full time C with the Lakers the past few years and when things mattered in the playoffs he was playing C. I suspect Dallas is going to find the same thing applies now. He might say he wants to play the 4 but it’s not in the best interest of his team. Offenses with 2 non-shooting bigs don’t work unless you have Steph and Klay as your backcourt.

[kwajo]

In what world are we getting giannis without giving up Scottie?

Teams trading their superstars almost always get fleeced.

[Insert Siakam Trade Here]

[TorontoBarneys]

If Masai is smart he'll be furiously going after Booker instead of Giannis. That Phoenix team is cooked and getting ready for its own tank era.

Booker would be a great fit on this team.

[COY0607]

The team as it is constructed has a very low ceiling, they’re a 42-46 win team that (best case) gets to second round. There is also no path to getting a top-3 pick in the next few years.

I’d easily give up whatever we have here to pair Giannis and Scottie. Still not a contender, but will be a lot more entertaining / exciting!

[ConSarnit]

What would Middleton have won as a #1 if he never had Giannis? How would Ingrams career have looked in he had 8 years next to Giannis in his prime?

Ingram and Middleton are very similar players. In al honesty in a vacuum Ingram is likely better.

Probably depends on what you’re looking for. I’d have Middleton as a slightly better pnr player and a better defender. Ingram a slightly better scorer. I have them very close in level of player. Obviously it’s unprovable but you give Middleton 2-3 more FGA and he’s probably putting up almost the exact same scoring stats as Ingram. Put Ingram in a better, higher pressure spot and maybe he ups his defense. Couldn’t really fault anyone for picking one over the other but I’d probably slightly favor Ingram as I think he could probably carry your offense more if forced into it.

That is where I stand as well. Middleton gets a lot of easy looks from Giannis taking a lot of attention away. Ingram has always been the guy who gets the attention.

Interesting enough here are Middleton’s per36 stats without Giannis on the floor from 2019-2023:

27/7/6

46/40/87

This was over 2500+ minutes. I think Middleton probably had more capability than he showed. Now, this could also have been due to Middleton’s character. He never seemed like the type to really impose his will on the game so I’m not sure he could have kept up this production if he were the #1 option full-time. No matter how many minutes he played he always seemed happy to take 15-16 fga max.

[Matty]

Middleton won a chip as solid #2.

What has Ingram accomplished aside from putting up numbers on a bad team?

What would Middleton have won as a #1 if he never had Giannis? How would Ingrams career have looked in he had 8 years next to Giannis in his prime?

Ingram and Middleton are very similar players. In al honesty in a vacuum Ingram is likely better.

Prove it.

It's easy to say a player is capable of XYZ, but until it happens it's all speculation.

That's the **** point. It was all speculation with Kawai until it was actualized.

Ingram only has 10 playoff games under his belt.

2 Rounds. 1 Really great one, and 1 really bad one. But he was essentially the No.1 option in both series.

We have actual proof this guy is capable as a No.1 Option to put up a good series. What do you think he will be as a No.2 behind the best slasher in the game?

Just think for a second instead of arguing for the sake of arguing. We're not picking up some bum off the street and telling him he's going to be Giannis's robin.

This is **** Brandon Ingram.