J.Allen market

[DowJones]

Do you think it is foolish for me, as a Cleveland fan, to believe that the Cavaliers can compete with the Pacers and Knicks next season? If your answer is no, then you essentially agree with my take on where Cleveland stands this offseason.

I think Cleveland needs to consider making a trade, but if they don’t, I believe we can realistically enter next season hoping to win the east and play in the NBA finals.

If they run it back 100%, retaining Ty Jerome and the identical roster? I think they can compete.

I don't think they are retaining Ty Jerome and/or need to make other moves in order to compensate. Garland has some serious question marks surrounding his ability to stay healthy.

But yeah, if you truly think Cleveland will retain everyone and have an astronomically large tax bill, they will be competitive. That seems highly suspect though.

So if Cleveland loses Ty Jerome, you don’t think they can compete with Indiana or New York? Merrill and Jerome are the only free agents of note that the Cavaliers have. The core 6 guys are all under 30 and locked up for the next 2 years (at least).

[ReggiesKnicks]

Do you think it is foolish for me, as a Cleveland fan, to believe that the Cavaliers can compete with the Pacers and Knicks next season? If your answer is no, then you essentially agree with my take on where Cleveland stands this offseason.

I think Cleveland needs to consider making a trade, but if they don’t, I believe we can realistically enter next season hoping to win the east and play in the NBA finals.

If they run it back 100%, retaining Ty Jerome and the identical roster? I think they can compete.

I don't think they are retaining Ty Jerome and/or need to make other moves in order to compensate. Garland has some serious question marks surrounding his ability to stay healthy.

But yeah, if you truly think Cleveland will retain everyone and have an astronomically large tax bill, they will be competitive. That seems highly suspect though.

So if Cleveland loses Ty Jerome, you don’t think they can compete with Indiana or New York? Merrill and Jerome are the only free agents of note that the Cavaliers have. The core 6 guys are all under 30 and locked up for the next 2 years (at least).

Yeah they would only have 6 guys they trust, similar to Denver, plus Wade/Okoro who are super fringe.

[DowJones]

If they run it back 100%, retaining Ty Jerome and the identical roster? I think they can compete.

I don't think they are retaining Ty Jerome and/or need to make other moves in order to compensate. Garland has some serious question marks surrounding his ability to stay healthy.

But yeah, if you truly think Cleveland will retain everyone and have an astronomically large tax bill, they will be competitive. That seems highly suspect though.

So if Cleveland loses Ty Jerome, you don’t think they can compete with Indiana or New York? Merrill and Jerome are the only free agents of note that the Cavaliers have. The core 6 guys are all under 30 and locked up for the next 2 years (at least).

Yeah they would only have 6 guys they trust, similar to Denver, plus Wade/Okoro who are super fringe.

I think if Jerome leaves, Merrill will be retained. That would give Cleveland 7 they trust, plus Wade and Okoro. I would argue they trust Wade when he is healthy.

I am surprised by this take on Jerome. I don’t think Cleveland needs Ty Jerome just to be able to compete with Indiana and New York. I don’t think those 2 teams are THAT much better than Cleveland.

[ReggiesKnicks]

So if Cleveland loses Ty Jerome, you don’t think they can compete with Indiana or New York? Merrill and Jerome are the only free agents of note that the Cavaliers have. The core 6 guys are all under 30 and locked up for the next 2 years (at least).

Yeah they would only have 6 guys they trust, similar to Denver, plus Wade/Okoro who are super fringe.

I think if Jerome leaves, Merrill will be retained. That would give Cleveland 7 they trust, plus Wade and Okoro. I would argue they trust Wade when he is healthy.

I am surprised by this take on Jerome. I don’t think Cleveland needs Ty Jerome just to be able to compete with Indiana and New York. I don’t think those 2 teams are THAT much better than Cleveland.

I don't trust Merrill, you do?

I don't trust Wade or Okoro either, maybe you do?

[Skybox]

The other issue is even if they were willing to pay the salary and tax for Jerome, they are prevented from paying him more than an MLE-sized deal. Now I happen to think that is enough, but I know jbk has been talking like he sees Jerome making well north of that on a multi-year deal so they might not even have the opportunity to keep him.

Now I think if they go 4 years he takes it as I don't see a cap space team going over that. And I'd pay to dump some other salary to pay for that if the team isn't willing to fit the bill.

But none of that is making them better, its just stemming the tide as best they can.

jbk thinks there are no deals that could make them better--they are all poopoo, but I've seen a number of ideas that make them look stronger and I suspect we will see more.

After watching Jerome on the bench while Mitchell limped around…I really have to question whether CLE should pay up. Playoffs are clearly a different animal and if Atkinson can’t go to him at that point…next man up. Time to inject some size & toughness into that backcourt, even if just off the bench.

Anthony Black would be great next to Donovan and/or Garland…but nobody at his price point on CLE. If CLE got a wild hair to shake up their big 4…ORL has too much toughness, defense & length and not enough offensive skill

[mcfly1204]

Yeah they would only have 6 guys they trust, similar to Denver, plus Wade/Okoro who are super fringe.

I think if Jerome leaves, Merrill will be retained. That would give Cleveland 7 they trust, plus Wade and Okoro. I would argue they trust Wade when he is healthy.

I am surprised by this take on Jerome. I don’t think Cleveland needs Ty Jerome just to be able to compete with Indiana and New York. I don’t think those 2 teams are THAT much better than Cleveland.

I don't trust Merrill, you do?

I don't trust Wade or Okoro either, maybe you do?

What do we mean by trust? Do I trust Merrill to come off the bench as a willing defender who can knock down threes at a good rate? Yes. Do I expect Merrill to lockdown large wings on defense, or to create offense? No, those are not his expected roles.

[jbk1234]

Yeah they would only have 6 guys they trust, similar to Denver, plus Wade/Okoro who are super fringe.

I think if Jerome leaves, Merrill will be retained. That would give Cleveland 7 they trust, plus Wade and Okoro. I would argue they trust Wade when he is healthy.

I am surprised by this take on Jerome. I don’t think Cleveland needs Ty Jerome just to be able to compete with Indiana and New York. I don’t think those 2 teams are THAT much better than Cleveland.

I don't trust Merrill, you do?

I don't trust Wade or Okoro either, maybe you do?

.I trust Wade to play his role. It's not like he disappoints. He's a backup forward capable of guarding the three or four and grab some rebounds. If he's hitting threes or getting put backs off of misses, that's gravy.

[DowJones]

Yeah they would only have 6 guys they trust, similar to Denver, plus Wade/Okoro who are super fringe.

I think if Jerome leaves, Merrill will be retained. That would give Cleveland 7 they trust, plus Wade and Okoro. I would argue they trust Wade when he is healthy.

I am surprised by this take on Jerome. I don’t think Cleveland needs Ty Jerome just to be able to compete with Indiana and New York. I don’t think those 2 teams are THAT much better than Cleveland.

I don't trust Merrill, you do?

I don't trust Wade or Okoro either, maybe you do?

I like Merrill and Wade. Okoro isn’t someone I trust.

Do you really think it is unreasonable for me to believe that the Cavs, minus Ty Jerome, can be competitive with Indiana and New York next year? That is just a really surprising take, and I am wondering if you just backed yourself into it or if you really believe the Knicks and Pacers are just on a different tier than Cleveland.

[Texas Chuck]

Do you really think it is unreasonable for me to believe that the Cavs, minus Ty Jerome, can be competitive with Indiana and New York next year? That is just a really surprising take, and I am wondering if you just backed yourself into it or if you really believe the Knicks and Pacers are just on a different tier than Cleveland.

I know you are asking Knicks this and not me. But you already asked me so let me expound:

No, probably not. But I think both of them are more resilient than Cleveland and that's an issue because Cleveland keeps winning all the RS games and then having something go wrong and then they flame right out. So I have a lot more confidence in both the Knicks and Pacers advancing because I don't think they need everything to go right the way Cleveland does.

Which is why I don't see why there is this fierce opposition to examining what splitting up the big four might look like. Particularly Garland because you could find a cheaper PG who provides most of what he does while adding in that extra big the team is missing. IDK just seems worth at least exploring.

But instead it appears like we win 60+ games how could any players help more than our current ones? Boston was a great team making deep runs every year and said we aren't good enough and made major changes over and over again until they got it right. And that was with deep playoff runs, not just RS success. I guess I don't see why its crazy to suggest Cleveland at least consider other routes.

[BlazersBroncos]

Does a KP swap make any sense?

[toooskies]

Because Mobley is both the starting 4 and the backup 5, the Cavs would need both a starting 4 and a backup 5 if they trade Allen and move Mobley to C. If you swap Allen for another C, that C better not have the same weaknesses that make Allen expendable.

I'm not sure what the Pelicans are right now but it might be the right time to ask about Herb Jones + Yves Missi. Jones could start at the 4 and Missi could play backup 5.

Dallas may have too many bigs if Flagg is going to play some PF, so a consolidation of Washington + Lively for Allen might make sense. The Cavs might have to include a 1st to make that happen, but they're getting young enough with Lively and he's got a good enough fro for Cavs podcasting stability. If Cleveland sends Dallas a pick they have more ammo to get a PG, or we can include Craig Porter Jr. in the deal as a flier.

[Skybox]

Because Mobley is both the starting 4 and the backup 5, the Cavs would need both a starting 4 and a backup 5 if they trade Allen and move Mobley to C. If you swap Allen for another C, that C better not have the same weaknesses that make Allen expendable.

I'm not sure what the Pelicans are right now but it might be the right time to ask about Herb Jones + Yves Missi. Jones could start at the 4 and Missi could play backup 5.

Dallas may have too many bigs if Flagg is going to play some PF, so a consolidation of Washington + Lively for Allen might make sense. The Cavs might have to include a 1st to make that happen, but they're getting young enough with Lively and he's got a good enough fro for Cavs podcasting stability. If Cleveland sends Dallas a pick they have more ammo to get a PG, or we can include Craig Porter Jr. in the deal as a flier.

I could see NOLA (maybe) drafting Maluach which would absolutely make Missi available...I don't really know how good Missi is, but he could be available. I don't see him touching Jarrett Allen level, so IF CLE were going to do something, I'd assume it's Mobley to C and find a PF.

I like WCJ at PF next to a highly-skilled but slender Mobley at C if toughness and better perimeter D is among the goals...but I'm not really sure what the vision is. I think the Garland/Mitchell combo is more of a compromise/weakness

Honestly, probably need to sleep on it for a bit...I figured they'd bust up the big 4 for redundancy and holes, but then 60+ wins, then a pretty soft playoffs...just need to really pump the brakes and figure.

[DowJones]

Do you really think it is unreasonable for me to believe that the Cavs, minus Ty Jerome, can be competitive with Indiana and New York next year? That is just a really surprising take, and I am wondering if you just backed yourself into it or if you really believe the Knicks and Pacers are just on a different tier than Cleveland.

I know you are asking Knicks this and not me. But you already asked me so let me expound:

No, probably not. But I think both of them are more resilient than Cleveland and that's an issue because Cleveland keeps winning all the RS games and then having something go wrong and then they flame right out. So I have a lot more confidence in both the Knicks and Pacers advancing because I don't think they need everything to go right the way Cleveland does.

Which is why I don't see why there is this fierce opposition to examining what splitting up the big four might look like. Particularly Garland because you could find a cheaper PG who provides most of what he does while adding in that extra big the team is missing. IDK just seems worth at least exploring.

But instead it appears like we win 60+ games how could any players help more than our current ones? Boston was a great team making deep runs every year and said we aren't good enough and made major changes over and over again until they got it right. And that was with deep playoff runs, not just RS success. I guess I don't see why its crazy to suggest Cleveland at least consider other routes.

I think Cleveland should be open to the idea of making trades, but dealing a 25-year-old, two-time All-Star point guard for a lesser PG and a backup center doesn’t make sense. It all comes down to value, because Cleveland isn’t in a position where they have to make a move. The Cavs already have a good team and will remain an Eastern Conference contender even if they stand pat.

[jbk1234]

Do you really think it is unreasonable for me to believe that the Cavs, minus Ty Jerome, can be competitive with Indiana and New York next year? That is just a really surprising take, and I am wondering if you just backed yourself into it or if you really believe the Knicks and Pacers are just on a different tier than Cleveland.

I know you are asking Knicks this and not me. But you already asked me so let me expound:

No, probably not. But I think both of them are more resilient than Cleveland and that's an issue because Cleveland keeps winning all the RS games and then having something go wrong and then they flame right out. So I have a lot more confidence in both the Knicks and Pacers advancing because I don't think they need everything to go right the way Cleveland does.

Which is why I don't see why there is this fierce opposition to examining what splitting up the big four might look like. Particularly Garland because you could find a cheaper PG who provides most of what he does while adding in that extra big the team is missing. IDK just seems worth at least exploring.

But instead it appears like we win 60+ games how could any players help more than our current ones? Boston was a great team making deep runs every year and said we aren't good enough and made major changes over and over again until they got it right. And that was with deep playoff runs, not just RS success. I guess I don't see why its crazy to suggest Cleveland at least consider other routes.

I think Cleveland should be open to the idea of making trades, but dealing a 25-year-old, two-time All-Star point guard for a lesser PG and a backup center doesn’t make sense. It all comes down to value, because Cleveland isn’t in a position where they have to make a move. The Cavs already have a good team and will remain an Eastern Conference contender even if they stand pat.

Yeah, the Chicken Little framing around the Cavs roster is borderline ridiculous. If good value is offered, and the Cavs have a different but better team afterwards, I expect he'll pull the trigger. If not, he'll be content to run it back.

[axeman23]

Because Mobley is both the starting 4 and the backup 5, the Cavs would need both a starting 4 and a backup 5 if they trade Allen and move Mobley to C. If you swap Allen for another C, that C better not have the same weaknesses that make Allen expendable.

I'm not sure what the Pelicans are right now but it might be the right time to ask about Herb Jones + Yves Missi. Jones could start at the 4 and Missi could play backup 5.

Dallas may have too many bigs if Flagg is going to play some PF, so a consolidation of Washington + Lively for Allen might make sense. The Cavs might have to include a 1st to make that happen, but they're getting young enough with Lively and he's got a good enough fro for Cavs podcasting stability. If Cleveland sends Dallas a pick they have more ammo to get a PG, or we can include Craig Porter Jr. in the deal as a flier.

See, the problem with me is those names (Missi and Lively, chuck in Claxton, another oft-mentioned name...) are quite similar body-wise. Lively is 2 inches taller, but 5 pounds lighter, Claxton is same height, but 15 pounds lighter, and Missi is the same height and 2 pounds heavier. And all seem to share a similar body-type, no? Missi looks like he has some potential to expand on his frame, the others I'm just not seeing it.

[toooskies]

Because Mobley is both the starting 4 and the backup 5, the Cavs would need both a starting 4 and a backup 5 if they trade Allen and move Mobley to C. If you swap Allen for another C, that C better not have the same weaknesses that make Allen expendable.

I'm not sure what the Pelicans are right now but it might be the right time to ask about Herb Jones + Yves Missi. Jones could start at the 4 and Missi could play backup 5.

Dallas may have too many bigs if Flagg is going to play some PF, so a consolidation of Washington + Lively for Allen might make sense. The Cavs might have to include a 1st to make that happen, but they're getting young enough with Lively and he's got a good enough fro for Cavs podcasting stability. If Cleveland sends Dallas a pick they have more ammo to get a PG, or we can include Craig Porter Jr. in the deal as a flier.

I could see NOLA (maybe) drafting Maluach which would absolutely make Missi available...I don't really know how good Missi is, but he could be available. I don't see him touching Jarrett Allen level, so IF CLE were going to do something, I'd assume it's Mobley to C and find a PF.

I like WCJ at PF next to a highly-skilled but slender Mobley at C if toughness and better perimeter D is among the goals...but I'm not really sure what the vision is. I think the Garland/Mitchell combo is more of a compromise/weakness

Honestly, probably need to sleep on it for a bit...I figured they'd bust up the big 4 for redundancy and holes, but then 60+ wins, then a pretty soft playoffs...just need to really pump the brakes and figure.

If NO drafts Maluach then they're not going to be interested in Allen.

We wouldn't be acquiring Missi to be our starting C, we'd be trading for him to back up Mobley for 20 minutes a night and just spot minutes in the playoffs. We'd be acquiring Herb Jones to be the starting 4, shifting our defense more towards the perimeter. We'd probably be weaker against bigger teams from the West but stronger against Boston, Indiana, and New York (as presently constructed) that all play 4+-out.

[Skybox]

Because Mobley is both the starting 4 and the backup 5, the Cavs would need both a starting 4 and a backup 5 if they trade Allen and move Mobley to C. If you swap Allen for another C, that C better not have the same weaknesses that make Allen expendable.

I'm not sure what the Pelicans are right now but it might be the right time to ask about Herb Jones + Yves Missi. Jones could start at the 4 and Missi could play backup 5.

Dallas may have too many bigs if Flagg is going to play some PF, so a consolidation of Washington + Lively for Allen might make sense. The Cavs might have to include a 1st to make that happen, but they're getting young enough with Lively and he's got a good enough fro for Cavs podcasting stability. If Cleveland sends Dallas a pick they have more ammo to get a PG, or we can include Craig Porter Jr. in the deal as a flier.

I could see NOLA (maybe) drafting Maluach which would absolutely make Missi available...I don't really know how good Missi is, but he could be available. I don't see him touching Jarrett Allen level, so IF CLE were going to do something, I'd assume it's Mobley to C and find a PF.

I like WCJ at PF next to a highly-skilled but slender Mobley at C if toughness and better perimeter D is among the goals...but I'm not really sure what the vision is. I think the Garland/Mitchell combo is more of a compromise/weakness

Honestly, probably need to sleep on it for a bit...I figured they'd bust up the big 4 for redundancy and holes, but then 60+ wins, then a pretty soft playoffs...just need to really pump the brakes and figure.

If NO drafts Maluach then they're not going to be interested in Allen.

We wouldn't be acquiring Missi to be our starting C, we'd be trading for him to back up Mobley for 20 minutes a night and just spot minutes in the playoffs. We'd be acquiring Herb Jones to be the starting 4, shifting our defense more towards the perimeter. We'd probably be weaker against bigger teams from the West but stronger against Boston, Indiana, and New York (as presently constructed) that all play 4+-out.

Missi, at his salary, might be a really solid back-up and also take the Allen role in some twin big situations. But, of course, you're right...Missi wouldn't be THE target - He and Jones together for Allen would be a salary match, but would likely be a three way OR NOLA drafts someone else. If I could trade for Allen, I'd draft someone else for sure.

[toooskies]

Because Mobley is both the starting 4 and the backup 5, the Cavs would need both a starting 4 and a backup 5 if they trade Allen and move Mobley to C. If you swap Allen for another C, that C better not have the same weaknesses that make Allen expendable.

I'm not sure what the Pelicans are right now but it might be the right time to ask about Herb Jones + Yves Missi. Jones could start at the 4 and Missi could play backup 5.

Dallas may have too many bigs if Flagg is going to play some PF, so a consolidation of Washington + Lively for Allen might make sense. The Cavs might have to include a 1st to make that happen, but they're getting young enough with Lively and he's got a good enough fro for Cavs podcasting stability. If Cleveland sends Dallas a pick they have more ammo to get a PG, or we can include Craig Porter Jr. in the deal as a flier.

See, the problem with me is those names (Missi and Lively, chuck in Claxton, another oft-mentioned name...) are quite similar body-wise. Lively is 2 inches taller, but 5 pounds lighter, Claxton is same height, but 15 pounds lighter, and Missi is the same height and 2 pounds heavier. And all seem to share a similar body-type, no? Missi looks like he has some potential to expand on his frame, the others I'm just not seeing it.

Most NBA weight listings are outdated. Mobley is still listed at 215 on basketball-reference which is his combine weight.

We should be trying to beat big-body teams by running them off the floor. That's what a 10+ man rotation should be doing generally. But if you want to float Allen + Okoro (losing Merrill + Jerome but getting under 2nd apron) for Keegan Murray + Valanciunas, go ahead.

[tidho]

They BOTH should be traded for the right return.

everyone on their team should be traded for the "right return". Reality is, it's one of Mitchell/Garland needs to go. Allen really isn't a problem, but could be moved if the return somehow mitigates Mitchell/Garland. That's why you'd want a Dyson Daniels type back, then figure out how to add a couple serviceable bigs in other deals.

Cavs receive Mark Williams, Salaun, Grant Williams
Hornets receive Jarrett Allen

? Just thinking if Hornets want a relatively proven C locked up, and then Cavs have a bit more wing depth with this. Mark Williams might not be Allen, but he perhaps replicates what Allen does for less and can still improve.

CLE would absolutely have to do this.

I think it is silly to believe Cleveland can’t compete with the Knicks or Pacers.

They have well constructed teams - we have the same problem that arrived the moment Mitchell did.

[jbk1234]

They BOTH should be traded for the right return.

everyone on their team should be traded for the "right return". Reality is, it's one of Mitchell/Garland needs to go. Allen really isn't a problem, but could be moved if the return somehow mitigates Mitchell/Garland. That's why you'd want a Dyson Daniels type back, then figure out how to add a couple serviceable bigs in other deals.

Cavs receive Mark Williams, Salaun, Grant Williams
Hornets receive Jarrett Allen

? Just thinking if Hornets want a relatively proven C locked up, and then Cavs have a bit more wing depth with this. Mark Williams might not be Allen, but he perhaps replicates what Allen does for less and can still improve.

CLE would absolutely have to do this.

I think it is silly to believe Cleveland can’t compete with the Knicks or Pacers.

They have well constructed teams - we have the same problem that arrived the moment Mitchell did.

How many minutes do the three Hornets even play in the postseason? The Williams trade was voided because he failed his physical (and his defense limits his utility when healthy). The last two playoff teams Grant Williams played on both parted ways with him (the Mavs paid a first to do so). Saluan looks like he's not an NBA player. He can barely dribble the basketball.