Most underrated player of all-time

[One_and_Done]

If anything Kobe has had the best career since MJ.

Has he really, though? What makes his career better than Duncan's? Or Lebron's? He certainly hasn't been individually better than Jokic. Kobe was very good, but "most underrated player of all-time" is very much wildly inaccurate.

He didn't go join superteam in a weak east like Lebron . He bested Duncan a bunch of times in the post season . He won more titles. etc. Looking back I'm sure Kobe wished he would have went to the east and superteamed it up to play trash like Lebron. How has Lebron done since he went to the West? A bubble title?

Kobe didn't need to join a superteam because he was drafted into one. As soon as the going got tough he tried to force a trade to Chicago, only to veto it because the team wouldn't be super enough if they traded all those assets for him. He then got bailed out again by the Pau trade, as a super team was formed around him once more. Kobe was on the title favourites 10+ times.

He didn't beat Duncan, etc, his team did. In 00-02 it was as Shaq's Robin, while Dunca had a weak support cast. In 08 it was after Duncan was past his prime, and Kobe had the far superior support cast. Kobe should never be mentioned in the same breath as superior players like Duncan and Lebron.

[90sAllDecade]

Haven't done a deep dive on this by any means due to time, but off the top of my head, guys like Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Moncrief and perhaps Drazen don't get talked about as often.

Sometimes understandably due to injuries or a career cut short. At times KJ used to become a buzz saw against other teams.

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[eminence]

I like the KJ mentions as well. Other than MJx2 I'm not sure any guard from his era was better than him when healthy.

[tsherkin]

He didn't go join superteam in a weak east like Lebron . He bested Duncan a bunch of times in the post season . He won more titles. etc. Looking back I'm sure Kobe wished he would have went to the east and superteamed it up to play trash like Lebron. How has Lebron done since he went to the West? A bubble title?

Sure, he forced a draft-time trade to Los Angeles, where he got to play with Shaq. And Duncan bested him a bunch of times, too, and didn't have the benefit of playing with another MVP. Lots of whining about Lebron in that response, but not a lot of legitimate discourse. And like One_and_Done noted, he was Shaq's #2, so counting those the same as titles as a focal star seems quite disingenuous in the context of star-to-star comparison.

[DorianRo]

He didn't go join superteam in a weak east like Lebron . He bested Duncan a bunch of times in the post season . He won more titles. etc. Looking back I'm sure Kobe wished he would have went to the east and superteamed it up to play trash like Lebron. How has Lebron done since he went to the West? A bubble title?

Sure, he forced a draft-time trade to Los Angeles, where he got to play with Shaq. And Duncan bested him a bunch of times, too, and didn't have the benefit of playing with another MVP. Lots of whining about Lebron in that response, but not a lot of legitimate discourse. And like One_and_Done noted, he was Shaq's #2, so counting those the same as titles as a focal star seems quite disingenuous in the context of star-to-star comparison.

Fact is, Kobe stayed put and won 5 titles in a hard ass, stacked WC. Lebron went superteam in a G-league east. You can sugarcoat it all you want to, but Lebron had it way easier just jumped around the league on Supterteams and Kobe would have won even more than he did if he did the same thing. I respect more what Kobe did than some team hopper like Lebron. Kobe got 2 b2b FMVPS with way LESS help than Lebron. Bottom line

You cant deny the facts. They are the facts. Kobe stayed put and overcame. Lebron didnt. He ran from Cleveland and then ran back to superteam it up. Thats what he has always done. Superteam it up.

[tsherkin]

Fact is, Kobe stayed put and won 5 titles in a hard ass, stacked WC. Lebron went superteam in a G-league east. You can sugarcoat it all you want to, but Lebron had it way easier just jumped around the league on Supterteams and he would have won even more than he did. I respect more what Kobe did than some team hopper like Lebron. Kobe got 2 b2b FMVPS with way LESS help than Lebron. Bottom line

Him staying is irrelevant. Your remark about lebron leaving to a superteam ignores that Kobe got himself traded to one on draft day. That's not sugarcoating, that's you failing to acknowledge that these are the same thing. He forced his way to LA, and management delivered. Lebron spent 7 years withering in Cleveland without anything resembling the talent Kobe had around him, so he went and found it himself. What you respect is irrelevant, because your argument has no consistency.

"Way less help" is also inaccurate when you look at age and health of co-stars, and bench depth. So if you could kindly stick to the actual facts, that'd be more conducive to legitimate discourse.

[DorianRo]

Whatever Kobe did from 09-10 is more impressive than whatever Lebron did on the SuperCheat or Cavs with Love/Irving and you aint gonna change my mind.. Sorry. Kobe got through a crazy ass hard West than beat the Celts. Kobe could have jumped around like Lebron did and superteamed it up for years and got EASY Rings. He didn't do that. Its not had to go join superstars and win rings. Its not. Durant did it, Lebron did it. Kobe never did. He stayed put

Kobe could have went to the Spurs and won 5 in a row. He didn't do it. MJ could have went to the Magic with Shaq and broke every title record there was . You see the difference?

[lessthanjake]

Fact is, Kobe stayed put and won 5 titles in a hard ass, stacked WC. Lebron went superteam in a G-league east. You can sugarcoat it all you want to, but Lebron had it way easier just jumped around the league on Supterteams and he would have won even more than he did. I respect more what Kobe did than some team hopper like Lebron. Kobe got 2 b2b FMVPS with way LESS help than Lebron. Bottom line

Him staying is irrelevant. Your remark about lebron leaving to a superteam ignores that Kobe got himself traded to one on draft day. That's not sugarcoating, that's you failing to acknowledge that these are the same thing. He forced his way to LA, and management delivered. Lebron spent 7 years withering in Cleveland without anything resembling the talent Kobe had around him, so he went and found it himself. What you respect is irrelevant, because your argument has no consistency.

"Way less help" is also inaccurate when you look at age and health of co-stars, and bench depth. So if you could kindly stick to the actual facts, that'd be more conducive to legitimate discourse.

Kobe did probably get himself traded to LA soon after the draft (though the details of what happened aren’t clear), but they were in no way a “superteam” when that occurred. They hadn’t even signed Shaq yet. And they really weren’t a “superteam” even after they got Shaq. The best that can be said is that Kobe may have gotten himself traded to a team that would ultimately end up being great.

[migya]

John stockton. The Utah teams were pretty horrible compared to other playoff teams that era. Either Malone is goat type or Stockton has alot to do with the winning also. He is seemingly never mentioned among the top 5 PGs anymore but his effect is easily seen.

[EmpireFalls]

Gerald “Crash” Wallace.

One of only three post-merger players to ever average 2 steals and 2 blocks in a full season.

People go gaga over the Thompson Twins, Crash was the original version. One of the best defenders of all time, and RAPM data suggests he was mini KG for Charlotte for the aughts. I personally think he’s the best defensive wing of the entire 21st century.

[MiamiBulls]

ignores that Kobe got himself traded to one on draft day. That's not sugarcoating, that's you failing to acknowledge that these are the same thing. He forced his way to LA, and management delivered.

Have always been fascinated with this opinion that seemingly gets regurgitated that "Kobe forced himself to the Lakers" especially when I can't find any articles anywhere that legitimately suggests that Kobe Bryant forced his way onto the Lakers.

Articles I did find were from Head of Scouting of Charlotte Hornets Bill Branch:

'In 1996, the Charlotte Hornets drafted Kobe Bryant with the 13th pick in the NBA draft. However, the Hornets did not intend to keep him. They had already agreed to trade Bryant to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac the day before the draft.

Bill Branch, the Hornets' head scout at the time, confirmed that they agreed to the trade the day before the draft and that Bryant was not on their original draft board. The Lakers were trying to free up salary cap space to sign Shaquille O'Neal.

The Hornets needed to unload Divac's salary to acquire a center. The Lakers essentially told the Hornets who to pick right before the draft. Bryant, while not thrilled about the situation, did not orchestrate the trade, according to the Sporting News.'

[FuShengTHEGreat]

For me Terry Porter. He was unheralded when he entered the NBA coming from a school that wasn't even a blip on anyone's radar and not much expected from someone drafted late in the 1st round.

He was overshadowed in a era of PGs during his prime (about 87-93). HOFers Magic and Stockton Isiah took most of the glory and media attention. Then the likes of KJ, Price & Hardaway were probably more popular than Porter.

Although Clyde was the franchise player, Porter was the Blazers' best offensive player when the pace slowed and it was a half court game.

In 92 vs Utah he might have had lowkey arguably the most impressive individual playoff series in NBA history imho.

Of course there are guys that produced better in playoff series than Porter but there are no other instances in NBA history I can think of off of the top of my head where a guy that didn't make the HOF absolutely obliterated his opposite HOF number h2h in the prime of his career. This was Stockton fresh off of being selected for the Dream Team.

That series for me was the PG version of Olajuwon vs Robinson.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

ignores that Kobe got himself traded to one on draft day. That's not sugarcoating, that's you failing to acknowledge that these are the same thing. He forced his way to LA, and management delivered.

Have always been fascinated with this opinion that seemingly gets regurgitated that "Kobe forced himself to the Lakers" especially when I can't find any articles anywhere that legitimately suggests that Kobe Bryant forced his way onto the Lakers.

Articles I did find were from Head of Scouting of Charlotte Hornets Bill Branch:

'In 1996, the Charlotte Hornets drafted Kobe Bryant with the 13th pick in the NBA draft. However, the Hornets did not intend to keep him. They had already agreed to trade Bryant to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac the day before the draft.

Bill Branch, the Hornets' head scout at the time, confirmed that they agreed to the trade the day before the draft and that Bryant was not on their original draft board. The Lakers were trying to free up salary cap space to sign Shaquille O'Neal.

The Hornets needed to unload Divac's salary to acquire a center. The Lakers essentially told the Hornets who to pick right before the draft. Bryant, while not thrilled about the situation, did not orchestrate the trade, according to the Sporting News.'

Even before the Hornets trade came to fruition it was actually Calipari that wanted to draft Kobe #8.

Kobe called to say he won't play for the Nets

It turns out that after Calipari's lunch date with Taub, Kobe called Cal, and Bryant's agent, Arn Tellem, phoned Nets GM John Nash to tell them that Kobe would rather play in Italy than the Nets.

Tellem would later admit that he and former Adidas executive Sonny Vaccaro looked for ways so that Kobe would land in the city that suited his talents best. After hearing what Kobe said, Calipari began doubting his recruiting skills."

[SHAQ32]

Reggie Miller, Vlade Divac

[penbeast0]

Looking for guys that anyone who didn't watch the era will go . . . who? Many had careers cut short.
50s Kenny Sears (high percentage 2 level scorer, short career)
60s Joe Caldwell (could score, defend, when replaced by Pete Maravich the Hawks tanked)
70s Dick Van Arsdale (only a year or two later than Caldwell, high percentage outside scorer, All D team, good secondary playmaker), ABA: maybe Brian Taylor (high percentage shooter, All D, meh playmaker)
80s Marques Johnson (did everything well, career cut short by substance issues)
90s Mitch RIchmond (good, not great, for a long time but with little 3 point value, ignored today)
00s Brandon Roy (not remembered well outside of Portland but again, a guy who did it all until injuries)
10s LeMarcus Aldridge (long career as very good but never great guy)

[f4p]

For me Terry Porter. He was unheralded when he entered the NBA coming from a school that wasn't even a blip on anyone's radar and not much expected from someone drafted late in the 1st round.

He was overshadowed in a era of PGs during his prime (about 87-93). HOFers Magic and Stockton Isiah took most of the glory and media attention. Then the likes of KJ, Price & Hardaway were probably more popular than Porter.

Although Clyde was the franchise player, Porter was the Blazers' best offensive player when the pace slowed and it was a half court game.

In 92 vs Utah he might have had lowkey arguably the most impressive individual playoff series in NBA history imho.

Of course there are guys that produced better in playoff series than Porter but there are no other instances in NBA history I can think of off of the top of my head where a guy that didn't make the HOF absolutely obliterated his opposite HOF number h2h in the prime of his career. This was Stockton fresh off of being selected for the Dream Team.

That series for me was the PG version of Olajuwon vs Robinson.

Your comment made me look up the stats for the 1992 WCF. Porter had 26 ppg and 8.4 apg with a 72.4 TS% and 25 game score. Stockton only had 14/11 with a 53 TS% (40/23 splits, ugh) and 14 game score. That really is an asswhoopin'.

Previous round porter also had almost identical 25.8/8.3 numbers. He was on a roll.

[ShotCreator]

I think Ray Allen was the best guard in the NBA during his Bucks peak. I really believe he was a better playoff player than any version of Kobe as well. Insanely resilient, good on D, very portable on top of it. Ridiculous pressure put on defenses on and off ball.

I don't think many people believe this, so that underrates him for me.

Other than that, maybe Jimmy Butler for a little bit out of 2010s guys.

Role players can be very underrated.

Being a low-mistake player on offense who can be a relief valve for defensive schemes and pressure always inflates guys offensive impact much beyond what people typically think. Then you add in defensive impact and guys can become all-star level in essence like 2024 Derrick White.

The most extreme example of this is 2022 GP2 who was essentially better than Curry or any other Warrior for a quarter or so every game he played. Was he actually better than Curry, in essence? No. Was he in a perfect role that allowed him to absolutely destroy the oppositions lineups on both ends? Yes. And that counts.

[MiamiBulls]

For Underrated Players:

Eddie Jones - Roughly Top 55 All-Time in Career VORP, played less career games than Isiah Thomas, played less than over 300+ games than Carmelo Anthony and has higher Career VORP than either player. Played at an all-star level for 6-8 Seasons.

Ricky Pierce - From a 5 year stretch from 1985-1990 Pierce averaged roughly 24 PPG per 75 on +6% rTS. Peaked at 29 PPG per 75 on +5% rTS in 1990. Super underrated Scorer.

Arvydas Sabonis - 31 year old Rookie Arvydas Sabonis was better than any version of his son Damontas. Averaged per 75: 24 PPG | 13 REBS | 3 ASTS | 3 STOCKS | +7.5% rTS

With more minutes played Arvydas is a fringe MVP candidate in 1996.

[Doctor MJ]

So, first let me share a related thing form a study I'm doing:

Players of the databall era ('96-97 to present) who had the highest career RS RAPM VORP without making an all-star team:

1. Lamar Odom
2. Andre Miller
3. Shane Battier
4. Nene
5. Derek Fisher
6. George Hill
7. Sam Perkins (started pre-96)
8. Thaddeus Young
9. Ron Harper (started pre-96)
10. Jason Terry

I think this is a good list of guys to consider for the "most underrated" title generally.

Guys like Odom, Battier, Fisher, Harper & Terry are champions who might be viewed as particularly worth shine...or one might feel like they get the shine they deserve based on those chips.

Guys like Miller, Nene, Hill & Perkins don't have those chips and might be said to need more shine because of this.

Also shout out specifically to Thaddeus Young who might be the most accomplished player of the databall era who has always felt like an afterthought I have little to say about.

[MiamiBulls]

I think Ray Allen was the best guard in the NBA during his Bucks peak.

Ray Allen was not "good on D" by any stretch of the imagination in Milwaukee, there isn't any film study that backs up that assertion. He provided next to zero value of resistance on entry passes from his man, very susceptible to dribble blowbys with non existent recovery, he had a relatively short wing span which is why he provided zero value as a shot blocker, very low value as defensive Rebounder. Ray Allen was a significantly more problematic defender than Allen Iverson ever was, both on-ball & off-ball.

Ray Allen was not Steph Curry Sr., he was a slightly better archetype of Peak Glen Rice. Both Mcgrady and Vince Carter were comfortably better players than Ray Allen at their respective Playoff Peaks. Ray Allen was a low peak player.