How does Denver retool in the offseason (Who wants Murray/MPJ?)

[BigGargamel]

Their only hope is getting lucky late in the draft as San Antonio did with Manu and Parker. MPJ has negative value around the league given how poor he has played. Murray's value is at a net low given how poor his last two post-seasons have gone.

But you need draft picks to actually draft players.

https://fanspo.com/nba/teams/Nuggets/8/draft-picks

Look at this crap. Denver ONLY has their four first rounders that they can't trade.

They have zero ZERO ZEERRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOO second round picks through 2031.

Literally, they cannot trade a single draft pick. How does that happen?

Edit: They can trade 2031. Whoopty doo.

[1993Playoffs]

I just think the Denver starting lineup has ran its course. I can be wrong though

[Optms]

They need to blow it up.

Get as much as you can for Jokic. No stars are coming back to Denver.

[rolling_91]

Their core of Jocic, Gordon, Murray and Braun is very good. They need to add 1 or 2 good jump shooters.

No, that is very much not what they need. They need health, and they need a real slasher so, so, SOOOOOOOOO badly. They have shooters. Almost all they have besides Jokic is shooters. They need to be healthy, and they need someone who can pressure the defense with drives effectively and consistently.

Well they play through Jocic. And I was speaking realistically about how they can improve with the current roster and cap constraints. If you’re looking for a replacement for Murray well, I don’t see how you can acquire someone like that. So I am projecting how they improve with their current core

[sp6r=underrated]

I get that Denver and Milwaukee are bottom-tier markets, but Booth and Horst both lucked out into having generational talents on their rosters. It really isn't that hard to construct a winning team around them. And yet they completely failed.

I mean, they didn't. Both of them have several 50+-win seasons as a title.

People like me who think Denver's management is bad just as Lebron's 1st run Clevelannd management is bad hold that belief because we're big believers in Jokic.

In Cleveland's first go around with Lebron they had roughly the same results. Denver did get one title but had worse regular seasons, while Cleveland didn't win a title but had better regular seasons.

If Denver is doing a good job building around Jokic, the Jokic skeptics deserve much more of a hearing because the results in Denver are nothing like what you normally see when GOAT level players get paired with good management.

They've never come close to pushing 60 wins. They only have 1 deep playoff run (admittedly a title) but that involved a very favorable draw. Other than that they've been a low 50 win team that gets beat when they meet real contenders.

[Wolfgang630]

Trade Jokic and start over. They not getting equal value for MPJ or Murray. They both are not good enough. All you can do is pray the bench gets better because they need to bring better bench help in

[tsherkin]

People have gotten to used to the idea that every star needs to have a dynasty level run or else is a roster building fail and even then there are always 56,000 asterisks attached. The internet has just concentrated all of the people who perpetually complain no matter what happens. If OKC goes on a run they'll just say the league is weak and no one plays defense. There isn't a winning formula for these people in the long run.

I think people need to realize what level of peripheral/supporting talent is required to forge a dynasty. People think that it's one dude just going HAM every year and that's enough, but that's not what has actually happened at all, historically. Like, the Nuggets are a good team. They aren't an incredible team, but they won a title and they've made some deep runs. They have a generational star, but adding the rest of what's required to create a persistent contender is HARD. And they very much do not have THAT level of talent, but that doesn't mean it's a failing, for sure.

I suspect a lot of people are hot to see if Jokic can match RINGZ with the guys in the top 10 as we discuss legacy and stuff, but that comes with opportunity driven by roster. If you look at these single-star teams, they aren't the guys who repeat.

Like, in the last quarter century, which teams have repeated?

The Shaq-Kobe Lakers did it to open the century. Then we didn't see another repeat until the Lebron-Wade-Bosh Heat... and they'd added Ray Allen by the time they repeated, and had Battier and Mike Miller crushing it both years. And Haslem.

Then it wasn't until the Steph/KD/Draymond/Klay Warriors that we saw another repeat. In between, we saw many titles from the Duncan/Manu/Parker Spurs, of course, adding Kawhi there at the end.

And no one else has repeated since. It's HARD to repeat. It's HARD to make tons and tons and tons of Finals.

Who has made 4+ Finals in the 3pt era? Like, not overall, but within a given star's dominant stretch?

Magic's Lakers made 9 Finals. Bird made 5. Duncan's Spurs made 6. Jordan's Bulls made 6. Lebron's Cavs made 5. Lebron's Heat made 4. Steph's Warriors have made 6. But look at the top end of those squads. Significant talent on all of them.

Other than that? Other multiple Finalists going back to 99-00?

Dallas and Detroit have each made two and won one in the 2000s. The Nets made consecutive Finals. The KG/Ray/Pierce Celtics made two Finals, and of course Tatum's Celtics have made it twice and won one. Miami with Playoff Jimmy made it twice.

You don't live and breathe in the Finals year after year without tons of talent. That's just how it is. And if you don't get that second guy and/or that breadth of talent, it just isn't going to happen.

[durden_tyler]

No one wants those overpaid bums.

Yeah, or trade them for overpaid bums as well and both teams hope for the best.


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[Raps in 4]

Their only hope is getting lucky late in the draft as San Antonio did with Manu and Parker. MPJ has negative value around the league given how poor he has played. Murray's value is at a net low given how poor his last two post-seasons have gone.

The Spurs didn't get lucky. They were one of the best drafting teams of all time under Pop.

[tsherkin]

People like me who think Denver's management is bad just as Lebron's 1st run Clevelannd management is bad hold that belief because we're big believers in Jokic.

They aren't as bad as Cleveland in Lebron's first run, though. Jokic arrived in 2015-2016, after getting drafted in 2014. They may have bungled some contracts, but over that stretch, they did furnish the roster with Murray, MPJ, a couple good years from Paul Millsap, Aaron Gordon, Bruce Brown, KCP and Braun.

That's still better than what Cleveland did for Lebron. The West has been tougher than the East, granted, but they've still provided SOMETHING, and Jokic did take them to a title.

If Denver is doing a good job building around Jokic, the Jokic skeptics deserve much more of a hearing because the results in Denver are nothing like what you normally see when GOAT level players get paired with good management.

These are separate arguments, though. You went from "as bad as Cleveland in Lebron's first run" to "good management." There is a wide space in between.

[sp6r=underrated]

People like me who think Denver's management is bad just as Lebron's 1st run Clevelannd management is bad hold that belief because we're big believers in Jokic.

They aren't as bad as Cleveland in Lebron's first run, though. Jokic arrived in 2015-2016, after getting drafted in 2014. They may have bungled some contracts, but over that stretch, they did furnish the roster with Murray, MPJ, a couple good years from Paul Millsap, Aaron Gordon, Bruce Brown, KCP and Braun.

That's still better than what Cleveland did for Lebron. The West has been tougher than the East, granted, but they've still provided SOMETHING, and Jokic did take them to a title.

If Denver is doing a good job building around Jokic, the Jokic skeptics deserve much more of a hearing because the results in Denver are nothing like what you normally see when GOAT level players get paired with good management.

These are separate arguments, though. You went from "as bad as Cleveland in Lebron's first run" to "good management." There is a wide space in between.

I think a large part of our disagreement is factoring in salary commitments I consider Murray and especially MPJ failures. And I don't see the italicized players as much different than Mo Williams, Varajeo, Big Z, etc.

To me in both cases it look management got lucky with an ATG and basically threw darts at the board outside of 2 components. CLE hired a skilled defensive coach and the Gordon signing was inspired. Other than that it looks dart throwing to me.

And again if this is even adaquete management I think the Jokic skeptics have a point. Denver's level of success is below what you see when GOAT level players have adaquete management.

[TheAlchemist]

Yeah, this is why you guys aren't GM.

There is moves to be made, signings, and trades. They do NOT need to blow it up. At all.

All they need is a solid MPJ trade, signing some guys who are 3+D, and they're back in the finals.

[Chuck Everett]

The Shaq-Kobe Lakers did it to open the century. Then we didn't see another repeat until the Lebron-Wade-Bosh Heat... and they'd added Ray Allen by the time they repeated, and had Battier and Mike Miller crushing it both years. And Haslem.

Then it wasn't until the Steph/KD/Draymond/Klay Warriors that we saw another repeat. In between, we saw many titles from the Duncan/Manu/Parker Spurs, of course, adding Kawhi there at the end.

And no one else has repeated since. It's HARD to repeat. It's HARD to make tons and tons and tons of Finals.

You missed the Kobe-Gasol Lakers who went to three straight NBA Finals (and won in 2009, 2010).

[Duke4life831]

They really just have to hope one of the young teams ready to take the next step, or a no longer young team realizing they’re headed for treadmill status will be desperate enough to trade actual assets for Murray.

I think they just have to bite the bullet with MPJ. I don’t think any GM is dumb enough to give up assets to get him and Denver just doesn’t have the assets to add onto him to unload him.

But that’s the thing, that would just get them out of one of their bad contracts. They’re still stuck with the fact they have zero depth. When Russ, Peyton Watson, and Julian Strawther are your 6th-8th guys, your roster better be ridiculously top heavy. And this Denver roster is nowhere close to being top heavy outside of Jokic.

I do think this Denver’s roster, lack of assets, and bad contracts is too much of a horrible combination to build another contending roster around Jokic. I think we’re at the point where if Jokic wants to win another ring, it won’t be at Denver.

[tsherkin]

You missed the Kobe-Gasol Lakers who went to three straight NBA Finals (and won in 2009, 2010).

I did, too! I had them in mind the whole time and then just didn't write them down.

[TheShow2021]

Absolutely everything should be on the table, even if it's trading Jokic and going for a rebuild if they are unable to upgrade the team to a contender. No one should be untouchable, as these guys bring in more value.

Big weaknesses are:
Shooting/spacing- Braun and AG have slow releases, have to be wide open. It's easy for their man to double Jokic. Braun's stats are a bit fool's gold, he is the weak link in the half court. Obviously MPJ's injury too.

Someone to carry the non- Jokic minutes- Jamal Murray has historically been a massive failure in the role.

Rim protection- AG was one of the worst in the league, along with Jokic in fg% against in the paint. The AG and Jokic fit is not good on either end other than their immense respect for eachother.

[bledredwine]

Well that’s it. Confirmed. Jokic and Giannis to Chicago for all of their seconds.

[ballzboyee]

I guess people don't realize that all of Denver's core are all in their 20's. Still a pretty young team. No way am I blowing up this roster when just took what was basically a 70 win team to 7 games. They need to shore up their bench rotation and get quality depth for the playoffs. They need a pure scorer off the bench and one more primary ball handler and playmaker to take pressure off Westbrook and Gordon.

[tsherkin]

I think a large part of our disagreement is factoring in salary commitments I consider Murray and especially MPJ failures. And I don't see the italicized players as much different than Mo Williams, Varajeo, Big Z, etc.

Murray is a lot better than Mo Williams, come on now. Gordon is better than literally anyone Lebron played with in his first 7 seasons. MPJ is an 18/7 player who is an elite shooter when he's healthy, he's also better than any of Lebron's supporting guys. Braun this season is as good as anyone who played with Lebron those years, at least. There is a large gap in what Cleveland managed and what Denver has done.

And again if this is even adaquete management I think the Jokic skeptics have a point. Denver's level of success is below what you see when GOAT level players have adaquete management.

It certainly raises some questions about Jokic's ability to take over and score. Obviously, there's a point where your guys are all banged up and/or underperforming and you just don't win. And there are series where GOATs like Lebron and Jordan looked pretty ass-like and got carried by their teammates, so I don't know that looking at Jokic in that way makes a ton of sense.

Let's take ourselves back to the 93 ECFs for a second. Jordan's shooting 40% from the field, scoring at -0.8% rTS relative to playoff average. Game 6 rolls around. Ewing leads the game with 26 points on 12/18 shooting and New York OBLITERATES Chicago on the offensive glass. Jordan shoots 8/24 from the field (33.3%) in a Chicago win. Scottie's 9/18 from the field, Ho Grant is 4/7. Cartwright, Armstrong, Paxson, Scott Williams and Stacey King combine to shoot 12/21.

And Chicago wins. But if the Bulls had lost that game because his guys hadn't come through, and they go to 7 and maybe lose that game, how does this narrative change? The opportunity cost there of Jordan's horrible performance was mitigated, lost to history because his guys came through and beat the hell out of the Knicks in a way which has not consistently happened in this postseason for the Nuggets.

So it's stuff like that which makes me wonder. Gunners gun. And sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't, but you need your guys to come through against strong defensive squads. And the Thunder were an elite defensive team. They were literally a -7.0 defense this year, tops in the league. And when their guys started to come through, Denver faltered.

So yeah, it makes me think about the way we talk about stars in general. The post hoc alteration of narrative often makes these discussions a little challenging, right? Like, Lebron's had some BRUTAL series as a scorer which ended in victory, but he and MJ are the guys we consider better than someone like Jokic mostly on O, right? But on his title squads, his guys came through. Obviously, Lebron is a legit GOAT candidate himself and a brilliant player, but like, there's little effort paid to looking at times when these guys performed poorly but won regardless because their teammates came through. And that very much isn't what happened tonight. Also, there is the health conversation.

[Raps in 4]

Yeah, this is why you guys aren't GM.

There is moves to be made, signings, and trades. They do NOT need to blow it up. At all.

All they need is a solid MPJ trade, signing some guys who are 3+D, and they're back in the finals.

Except MPJ has negative trade value and they don't have any cap space. Retooling that roster is going to be very difficult.