What is the plan here?

[TorontoBarneys]

Hard to say because the definition of treadmill changes so much from person to person....for example some will still consider the Pacers a treadmill team despite b2b ECF appearances. Cavs could also be considered a treadmill team because they fall flat in the playoffs.

You can be a treadmill team at different tiers.....if Raptors are the 1st seed every season but continuously get eliminated in the 2nd round nobody is going to be satisfied with that.

I think the team is closer than ever to being branded a treadmill team. It's like that '21 team. Could we have potentially topped out as a 50-win team that season and beat the 76ers to advance to the 2nd round? It was possible... but more than likely it would go wrong, and it did... I feel like we might be retreading such waters.

Ingram goes down with an injury. Scottie doesn't have another gear to unlock. Dick disappoints again. #9 is likely decent but 2 years away from even being considered starter material etc. Shead/Walter/Mogob continue to play well but don't blow you away... then you're on a roster with a bunch of role-players and no star. You're pretty damn close to the lux and can't add anyone substantial anyway. You're in no position to acquire any more lottery picks and it's starting to look pretty treadmill...

Easily can happen. Feels like we hopped from one mediocre core to the next in the last 3 years?

[Pointgod]

Hard to say because the definition of treadmill changes so much from person to person....for example some will still consider the Pacers a treadmill team despite b2b ECF appearances. Cavs could also be considered a treadmill team because they fall flat in the playoffs.

You can be a treadmill team at different tiers.....if Raptors are the 1st seed every season but continuously get eliminated in the 2nd round nobody is going to be satisfied with that.

Pacers are a team with two all NBA players and a good base of young players. In the past 5 years they’ve had 35, 25, 35, 47 and 50 wins.

The Cavs also have two all NBA players, multiple allstar players, decent young guys to develop and in the past 5 years have had 22, 44, 51, 48 and 64 wins.

Both these teams are on the upswing, I wouldn’t call them treadmill at all.

Treadmill is a team like Atlanta who’s had 41,43, 41, 36 and 40 wins in the past 5 years with only a conference finals appearance 5 seasons ago as the highlight and the rest getting pummelled in the first round or play-in.

[Clay Davis]

Hard to say because the definition of treadmill changes so much from person to person....for example some will still consider the Pacers a treadmill team despite b2b ECF appearances. Cavs could also be considered a treadmill team because they fall flat in the playoffs.

You can be a treadmill team at different tiers.....if Raptors are the 1st seed every season but continuously get eliminated in the 2nd round nobody is going to be satisfied with that.

I agree that in the absence of a universal definition of treadmill, this discussion is a bit dicey. If we are a 1st seed for multiple seasons but continuously fizzle out while having a capacity to grow (that is, we haven't tapped out our upside by making short-sighted trades), it would not be fair to consider us a treadmill team. Why? We have something to be excited about. I'd say it's this capacity of being excited about competing that separates the rizz of treadmill teams from the rizz of genuinely interesting teams. By this definition, the Cavaliers aren't a treadmill team since their core players are very young. The Pacers and Knicks, each being 8 wins away from a championship, are also not treadmill teams. The Bucks sans Giannis? Treadmill team. They don't have any way of getting better. Us? We don't have anything holding us back (bad contracts, lack of picks, etc) but we also don't have much to be excited about (no superstar tier player, no star players that we are certain synergize amazingly like Haliburton and Siakam, etc).

A definition of treadmill ought not to be coequivalent with alist of teams that don't have superstars. Phoenix had superstars and they sucked. So did the Lakers and Clippers. That being said I wouldn't call the Lakers and Clippers treadmill teams. You can genuinely be excited about how they competed, and think that they can compete with a few moves around the periphery of their superstar cores.

[ishoy123]

Whats the actual play to avoid the Treadmill with this core?

There is a legit argument with the addition of Ingram that this core will at minimum be a 6-9 seed indefinitely moving forward.

This basically has eliminated all potential paths that included building slowly via top picks in the draft.

You can also make a convincing argument BBQ will never be as good as the Siakam/OG/FFV core which was a treadmill team.

It somewhat feels as though Masai really put all his eggs in this drafts basket hoping we would've got some lottery luck to add one more top talent with star potential, which likely failed.

Is there a realistic framework forward to a contender with this core?..

besides "be mediocre and hope for an unlikely highly favorable trade scenario to maybe come around one day" (ex. Kawhi).

I think this is actually one of the worst situations for a franchise to be in, setup not only to be "stuck in the middle" now, but for the future as well.

What favorable long term blueprints exist for this core/version of the Raptors?

That's how you build an NBA team. You stockpile young players to see what you have, then fill out the gaps over time.

Do you seriously prefer to be Utah, Washington, or Charlotte over Toronto's current situation?

[Scase]

Hard to say because the definition of treadmill changes so much from person to person....for example some will still consider the Pacers a treadmill team despite b2b ECF appearances. Cavs could also be considered a treadmill team because they fall flat in the playoffs.

You can be a treadmill team at different tiers.....if Raptors are the 1st seed every season but continuously get eliminated in the 2nd round nobody is going to be satisfied with that.

I don't think anyone will consider either of those teams treadmilling, they are both on an upward trajectory, and especially so for the pacers who really only made a major move with Siakam about a season ago. The cavs failing in the playoffs wont be considered treadmill unless they do the same thing another couple of years.

As mentioned by pointgod, the Hawks are, and have been for like 2 decades, the epitome of treadmill. Going from 06-07 to present day, they are 758-759, they had 2 standout seasons of 53 and 60 wins, but mostly hovered around 37-42 wins.

[Tripod]

Again, we have 2 players over the age of 25. We are just starting the climb back up next year that was suppressed this year only due to injuries, sitting starters, playing 10-dayers and gleaguers, etc...

For sure we all want a superstar but that isn't in our cards thru the draft unless we get lucky. So now Masai will continue to do what he did in 2015-19 and last year...grow from within, try and have great drafts/UDFA, aquire talent that is under priced, and consolidate along the way.

Like people forget, the Raps traded for impending UFA Serge for a 1st+Ross a full 1.5 years before acquiring Kawhi. It's very similar to the BI trade.

Let's maybe wait and see how this draft and offseason plays out as our roster could still look very different entering next year. But as of now:

IQ RJ BI SB Yak
JS JKW GD OA JB JM

That's 11 guys who have shown they can be rotation players with varying impact. We are adding #9 to that. That's a lot of playable depth. It's why we might see a consolidation this offseason...but I don't think it will be that huge one for a Giannis. But another smaller one like a BI wouldn't shock me.

Plus we would have #39 and Chomche developing in the 905. Masai is starting to build a pipeline of youth which was badly needed. It's just starting...like Gradey and him getting stronger...it takes time. Enjoy the ride.

[Duffman100]

Again, we have 2 players over the age of 25. We are just starting the climb back up next year that was suppressed this year only due to injuries, sitting starters, playing 10-dayers and gleaguers, etc...

For sure we all want a superstar but that isn't in our cards thru the draft unless we get lucky. So now Masai will continue to do what he did in 2015-19 and last year...grow from within, try and have great drafts/UDFA, aquire talent that is under priced, and consolidate along the way.

Like people forget, the Raps traded for impending UFA Serge for a 1st+Ross a full 1.5 years before acquiring Kawhi. It's very similar to the BI trade.

Let's maybe wait and see how this draft and offseason plays out as our roster could still look very different entering next year. But as of now:

IQ RJ BI SB Yak
JS JKW GD OA JB JM

That's 11 guys who have shown they can be rotation players with varying impact. We are adding #9 to that. That's a lot of playable depth. It's why we might see a consolidation this offseason...but I don't think it will be that huge one for a Giannis. But another smaller one like a BI wouldn't shock me.

Plus we would have #39 and Chomche developing in the 905. Masai is starting to build a pipeline of youth which was badly needed. It's just starting...like Gradey and him getting stronger...it takes time. Enjoy the ride.

We're one of the youngest teams in the league. Even our win now players are mostly 25 and under.

The hysteria and doom and gloom is bizarre.

[youngRAPZ]

Those were good teams that TWO was still crying to tear down and tank! Bottom line TWO will never be happy with anything except a 10 year tank followed by 10 straight championships.

Rather than unprompted complaint about tWo, why don't we just focus on the positive?

It was prompted when sfour said “nobody is going to be satisfied with that” which he is right and I supplemented his comment by stating the truth that even when we had a perennial top 3 team people still complained. You telling me to focus on the positive is actually funny.

[tsherkin]

We're one of the youngest teams in the league. Even our win now players are mostly 25 and under.

The hysteria and doom and gloom is bizarre.

Youth opens some doors. Some of the guys don't have huge expected ceilings, and some of the youth is pretty far into its career, to a point where at least major changes are fairly unlikely. I expect that dims some of the optimism, as does the absence of a tier-2 player, let alone a superstar.

The bench crew certainly looks interesting, and we are definitely going to be better than last year, though, so that's nice and something to look forward to. Ingram is definitely someone to look forward to relative to our post-trade roster, for all 60 games he'll be with us this year. He opens a lot of doors for us, like moving Scottie to the 4, reducing his shooting volume overall and specifically ATB, getting him more 3s from the corner, emphasizing transition, letting him have more energy for defense, etc. And our mob of solid but non-elite playmakers grows. RJ, Quick, BI, Scottie, Shead, etc. It's not a bad way to be, a little more distributed than most.

There are lots of questions, but at least we won't be as sad as we were this season. That's a nice step forward. And there's always the chance that one of the young guys will surprise us.

[Matty]

I guess find a core that works and makes us competitive like we did in the past before we traded for Kawhi.

That means making the playoffs, winning a round or 2, and when the opportunity arises, trade for the disgruntled superstar.

I don't mind skipping the winning part if Giannis is available. But if he isn't you move on. Booker as some weirdos in this forum have suggested is not the solution.

[tsherkin]

Those were good teams that TWO was still crying to tear down and tank! Bottom line TWO will never be happy with anything except a 10 year tank followed by 10 straight championships.

Rather than unprompted complaint about tWo, why don't we just focus on the positive?

It was prompted when sfour said “nobody is going to be satisfied with that” which he is right and I supplemented his comment by stating the truth that even when we had a perennial top 3 team people still complained. You telling me to focus on the positive is actually funny.

Yeah, but you quoted me, and I'd written nothing which prompted any remark about tWo at all.

[youngRAPZ]

Rather than unprompted complaint about tWo, why don't we just focus on the positive?

It was prompted when sfour said “nobody is going to be satisfied with that” which he is right and I supplemented his comment by stating the truth that even when we had a perennial top 3 team people still complained. You telling me to focus on the positive is actually funny.

Yeah, but you quoted me, and I'd written nothing which prompted any remark about tWo at all.

I quoted you because you were responding to what sfour said which he was obviously talking about a certain section of the fan base not going to be satisfied with a good regular season team.

If you’re upset I quoted you then sorry but my response was definitely related to the topic of the post you quoted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tsherkin]

It was prompted when sfour said “nobody is going to be satisfied with that” which he is right and I supplemented his comment by stating the truth that even when we had a perennial top 3 team people still complained. You telling me to focus on the positive is actually funny.

Yeah, but you quoted me, and I'd written nothing which prompted any remark about tWo at all.

I quoted you because you were responding to what sfour said which he was obviously talking about a certain section of the fan base not going to be satisfied with a good regular season team.

If you’re upset I quoted you then sorry but my response was definitely related to the topic of the post you quoted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm just explaining my response. You quoted me, so I thought you were talking about what I said, which is why I felt it made no sense. Now that you've explained, I get where you're coming from and that it had no bearing on my remarks.

[nivisi9]

Whats the actual play to avoid the Treadmill with this core?

There is a legit argument with the addition of Ingram that this core will at minimum be a 6-9 seed indefinitely moving forward.

This basically has eliminated all potential paths that included building slowly via top picks in the draft.

You can also make a convincing argument BBQ will never be as good as the Siakam/OG/FFV core which was a treadmill team.

It somewhat feels as though Masai really put all his eggs in this drafts basket hoping we would've got some lottery luck to add one more top talent with star potential, which likely failed.

Is there a realistic framework forward to a contender with this core?..

besides "be mediocre and hope for an unlikely highly favorable trade scenario to maybe come around one day" (ex. Kawhi).

I think this is actually one of the worst situations for a franchise to be in, setup not only to be "stuck in the middle" now, but for the future as well.

What favorable long term blueprints exist for this core/version of the Raptors?

That's how you build an NBA team. You stockpile young players to see what you have, then fill out the gaps over time.

Do you seriously prefer to be Utah, Washington, or Charlotte over Toronto's current situation?

I prefer to be OKC, HOU, SA who bottomed out properly for only a couple yrs and because of competent management are the most promising situations in the league, loaded with elite young talent, and setup to win for a very long time.

We were in the Wemby slot (5th worse overall) prior to the Poeltl trade.

So they replaced 2 max talent players OG + Siakam and Fred with -- Quickley, RJ, Ingram, and whatever role player we select at 9

AND THE REBUILD IS ALREADY OVER

[TheRaptor!]

Whats the actual play to avoid the Treadmill with this core?

There is a legit argument with the addition of Ingram that this core will at minimum be a 6-9 seed indefinitely moving forward.

This basically has eliminated all potential paths that included building slowly via top picks in the draft.

You can also make a convincing argument BBQ will never be as good as the Siakam/OG/FFV core which was a treadmill team.

It somewhat feels as though Masai really put all his eggs in this drafts basket hoping we would've got some lottery luck to add one more top talent with star potential, which likely failed.

Is there a realistic framework forward to a contender with this core?..

besides "be mediocre and hope for an unlikely highly favorable trade scenario to maybe come around one day" (ex. Kawhi).

I think this is actually one of the worst situations for a franchise to be in, setup not only to be "stuck in the middle" now, but for the future as well.

What favorable long term blueprints exist for this core/version of the Raptors?

That's how you build an NBA team. You stockpile young players to see what you have, then fill out the gaps over time.

Do you seriously prefer to be Utah, Washington, or Charlotte over Toronto's current situation?

I prefer to be OKC, HOU, SA who bottomed out properly for only a couple yrs and because of competent management are the most promising situations in the league, loaded with elite young talent, and setup to win for a very long time.

We were in the Wemby slot (5th worse overall) prior to the Poeltl trade.

So they replaced 2 max talent players OG + Siakam and Fred with -- Quickley, RJ, Ingram, and whatever role player we select at 9

AND THE REBUILD IS ALREADY OVER

We should've fought harder for the play-in so we couldve gotten the first pick this year

Oh wait...

[ishoy123]

Whats the actual play to avoid the Treadmill with this core?

There is a legit argument with the addition of Ingram that this core will at minimum be a 6-9 seed indefinitely moving forward.

This basically has eliminated all potential paths that included building slowly via top picks in the draft.

You can also make a convincing argument BBQ will never be as good as the Siakam/OG/FFV core which was a treadmill team.

It somewhat feels as though Masai really put all his eggs in this drafts basket hoping we would've got some lottery luck to add one more top talent with star potential, which likely failed.

Is there a realistic framework forward to a contender with this core?..

besides "be mediocre and hope for an unlikely highly favorable trade scenario to maybe come around one day" (ex. Kawhi).

I think this is actually one of the worst situations for a franchise to be in, setup not only to be "stuck in the middle" now, but for the future as well.

What favorable long term blueprints exist for this core/version of the Raptors?

That's how you build an NBA team. You stockpile young players to see what you have, then fill out the gaps over time.

Do you seriously prefer to be Utah, Washington, or Charlotte over Toronto's current situation?

I prefer to be OKC, HOU, SA who bottomed out properly for only a couple yrs and because of competent management are the most promising situations in the league, loaded with elite young talent, and setup to win for a very long time.

We were in the Wemby slot (5th worse overall) prior to the Poeltl trade.

So they replaced 2 max talent players OG + Siakam and Fred with -- Quickley, RJ, Ingram, and whatever role player we select at 9

AND THE REBUILD IS ALREADY OVER

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

[Tripod]

That's how you build an NBA team. You stockpile young players to see what you have, then fill out the gaps over time.

Do you seriously prefer to be Utah, Washington, or Charlotte over Toronto's current situation?

I prefer to be OKC, HOU, SA who bottomed out properly for only a couple yrs and because of competent management are the most promising situations in the league, loaded with elite young talent, and setup to win for a very long time.

We were in the Wemby slot (5th worse overall) prior to the Poeltl trade.

So they replaced 2 max talent players OG + Siakam and Fred with -- Quickley, RJ, Ingram, and whatever role player we select at 9

AND THE REBUILD IS ALREADY OVER

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

[GLF]

I prefer to be OKC, HOU, SA who bottomed out properly for only a couple yrs and because of competent management are the most promising situations in the league, loaded with elite young talent, and setup to win for a very long time.

We were in the Wemby slot (5th worse overall) prior to the Poeltl trade.

So they replaced 2 max talent players OG + Siakam and Fred with -- Quickley, RJ, Ingram, and whatever role player we select at 9

AND THE REBUILD IS ALREADY OVER

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

Oh and they also say the rebuild is “over” like this iteration of the Raptors is the final version lol. Because to them the only way to rebuild is by being bottom 5 for years on end, so once that’s no longer happening there’s no other way for a team to get better lol

[nivisi9]

I prefer to be OKC, HOU, SA who bottomed out properly for only a couple yrs and because of competent management are the most promising situations in the league, loaded with elite young talent, and setup to win for a very long time.

We were in the Wemby slot (5th worse overall) prior to the Poeltl trade.

So they replaced 2 max talent players OG + Siakam and Fred with -- Quickley, RJ, Ingram, and whatever role player we select at 9

AND THE REBUILD IS ALREADY OVER

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

HOU - Amen (2nd overall), Jabari (2nd overall), Reed Sheppard (FVV eventual replacement 3rd overall), Jalen Green (2nd overall), Eason (17th overall), Sengun (16th overall)

OKC- Holgren (2nd overall) , Jalen Williams (12th overall)

SA- Wemby (5th overall), Castle (3rd), Harper (2nd)

you can nitpick about how these guys fell exactly in the spots they did, or how good they'll all eventually be but the point stands..

Bottoming out/rebuilding properly for a couple yrs to get elite prospects + be in full rebuilding mode to acquire additional lottery range 1st round picks, is what will keep these teams young contenders for a long time.

= the perfect outcome of a rebuild

and 3 of the most "full rebuild" franchises a couple yrs ago did it.

So it's alot more successful then many want to admit.

[nikster]

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

HOU - Amen (2nd overall), Jabari (2nd overall), Reed Sheppard (FVV eventual replacement 3rd overall), Jalen Green (2nd overall), Eason (17th overall), Sengun (16th overall)

OKC- Holgren (2nd overall) , Jalen Williams (12th overall)

SA- Wemby (5th overall), Castle (3rd), Harper (2nd)

you can nitpick about how these guys fell exactly in the spots they did, or how good they'll all eventually be but the point stands..

Bottoming out/rebuilding properly for a couple yrs to get elite prospects + be in full rebuilding mode to acquire additional lottery range 1st round picks, is what will keep these teams young contenders for a long time.

= the perfect outcome of a rebuild

and 3 of the most "full rebuild" franchises a couple yrs ago did it.

So it's alot more successful then many want to admit.

Whays the point of listing all houstons picks if they're not impact players? Jalen Green is more likely to be a negative on his net contact then a meaningful contributer to playoff success. Reed Sheppard has shown nothing so far, it's too early to write him off but also way to early to say he's a good back up, let alone a replacement for Fred. Jabari and Tari are good prospects but they were 7th and 8th in the rotation these playoffs.

I really don't see Houstons young talent as significantly better than ours, and their success this year has mostly been driven by their vets.

And if your gonna be listing 16th and 17th picks your not really talking about tanking any more