OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[mdenny]

At this point, it just seems like this particular team has the yips, and they aren't going to ever get over the hump.

What's wild to me is, a team like the Golden Knights was able to go to the Stanley Cup finals in its inaugural season (as well as a second time where they won), while the Leafs continue to struggle year in and year out.

That was some BS though. Bettman changed the expansion draft rules for vegas' first season....virtually guaranteeing that they'd be immediately competitive.

Before Vegas made their selections (after the protections weer announced) i did a couple mock runs through it and knew right away they were going to be an amazing team right away. Partly because they had access to several elite role players and they could start with not a single bad contract. Plus they were guaranteed a great goalie right away.

Compare the Nashville expansion draft to the vegas one. It's such BS. When Nashville entered the league....teams were allowed to protect 9 forwards, 5 defenseman plus a goalie. Also....and this is KEY: first and second year players were off limits.

Now look at the begas draft: teams only allowed to protect 7 forwards, 3 defenseman and one goalie. PLUS first and second year players were fair game. So alot of teams had to waste protections on their prospects, thereby exposing first and second unit players.

It's actually just pure corruption to tell the truth. I'm shocked thar other teams didn't make more stink about it. And THATS how an expansion team makes the finals in their first year. It wasn't some sort of miracle. The expansion draft was rigged.

The early Vegas years were a sham. It's like the opposite of what an expansion is supposed to be. They started off with a huge advantage and then as years go by and they start having the same contract problems of other teams....they slowly fall back into the middle of the league.

One of the team president's made a anonymous comment saying approx 2 out of 3 teams in the league would trade their current position with Las Vegas shortly before the draft.

[wegotthabeet]

At this point, it just seems like this particular team has the yips, and they aren't going to ever get over the hump.

What's wild to me is, a team like the Golden Knights was able to go to the Stanley Cup finals in its inaugural season (as well as a second time where they won), while the Leafs continue to struggle year in and year out.

That was some BS though. Bettman changed the expansion draft rules for vegas' first season....virtually guaranteeing that they'd be immediately competitive.

Before Vegas made their selections (after the protections weer announced) i did a couple mock runs through it and knew right away they were going to be an amazing team right away. Partly because they had access to several elite role players and they could start with not a single bad contract. Plus they were guaranteed a great goalie right away. You could only protect 8 players! So that's basically your top 5 unit plus your number 1 goalie. Then you can only protect 2 more on top of that.

The total amount of nhl players Vegas had to choose from was like 475 lol. So you're picking 23 of the best from a pool of 475 smh.

The early Vegas years were a sham. That was just Bettman making sure that market would succeed.

One of the team president's made a anonymous comment saying approx 2 out of 3 teams in the league would trade their current position with Las Vegas shortly before the draft.

Same **** will happen when the NBA expands. You think these groups will pay 5 billion to be bottom dwellers for years on end? The days of not being able to pick 1st overall for the first 5 years are over.

[mdenny]

At this point, it just seems like this particular team has the yips, and they aren't going to ever get over the hump.

What's wild to me is, a team like the Golden Knights was able to go to the Stanley Cup finals in its inaugural season (as well as a second time where they won), while the Leafs continue to struggle year in and year out.

That was some BS though. Bettman changed the expansion draft rules for vegas' first season....virtually guaranteeing that they'd be immediately competitive.

Before Vegas made their selections (after the protections weer announced) i did a couple mock runs through it and knew right away they were going to be an amazing team right away. Partly because they had access to several elite role players and they could start with not a single bad contract. Plus they were guaranteed a great goalie right away. You could only protect 8 players! So that's basically your top 5 unit plus your number 1 goalie. Then you can only protect 2 more on top of that.

The total amount of nhl players Vegas had to choose from was like 475 lol. So you're picking 23 of the best from a pool of 475 smh.

The early Vegas years were a sham. That was just Bettman making sure that market would succeed.

One of the team president's made a anonymous comment saying approx 2 out of 3 teams in the league would trade their current position with Las Vegas shortly before the draft.

Same **** will happen when the NBA expands. You think these groups will pay 5 billion to be bottom dwellers for years on end? The days of not being able to pick 1st overall for the first 5 years are over.

Yah it depends on which city. If it's vegas....you can bet Silver will rig that draft too.

The basketball equivalent to the vegas expansion draft is probably like 5 or 6 players protected on each team (WITH first and second year players fair game).

It's not hard to go through each team, one by one and realize that you're gonna start off with a solid team with solid role players, tons of prospects on rookie contracts, and not a single bad contract.

I never bet on anything....but I remember considering betting on vegas to win the the cup their first season. Because I knew most ppl didn't realize just rigged that draft was. I only realized it when I did the mock draft. Then thought "I must be missing something". Then I cross-referenced previous expansion draft rules and it became clear that Bettman was rigging it.

You have to understand how big a difference it makes. For example, if Vegas had the same rules as Nashville.....they probably wouldnt have had ONE SINGLE PLAYER that they ended up picking.it would have been a completely different roster from top to bottom....because those margins have all the best selections.

The first years vegas played....they didnt have any 4th line forwards or bottom 6 defensemen. Their fourth line were all 3rd line players and their 3rd line were all 2nd line players. And their 5th and 6th defenseman were top 4 defenseman.

[wegotthabeet]

That was some BS though. Bettman changed the expansion draft rules for vegas' first season....virtually guaranteeing that they'd be immediately competitive.

Before Vegas made their selections (after the protections weer announced) i did a couple mock runs through it and knew right away they were going to be an amazing team right away. Partly because they had access to several elite role players and they could start with not a single bad contract. Plus they were guaranteed a great goalie right away. You could only protect 8 players! So that's basically your top 5 unit plus your number 1 goalie. Then you can only protect 2 more on top of that.

The total amount of nhl players Vegas had to choose from was like 475 lol. So you're picking 23 of the best from a pool of 475 smh.

The early Vegas years were a sham. That was just Bettman making sure that market would succeed.

One of the team president's made a anonymous comment saying approx 2 out of 3 teams in the league would trade their current position with Las Vegas shortly before the draft.

Same **** will happen when the NBA expands. You think these groups will pay 5 billion to be bottom dwellers for years on end? The days of not being able to pick 1st overall for the first 5 years are over.

Yah it depends on which city. If it's vegas....you can bet Silver will rig that draft too.

The basketball equivalent to the vegas expansion draft is probably like 5 or 6 players protected on each team (WITH first and second year players fair game).

It's not hard to go through each team, one by one and realize that you're gonna start off with a solid team with solid role players, tons of prospects on rookie contracts, and not a single bad contract.

I never bet on anything....but I remember considering betting on vegas to win the the cup their first season. Because I knew most ppl didn't realize just rigged that draft was. I only realized it when I did the mock draft. Then thought "I must be missing something". Then I cross-referenced previous expansion draft rules and it became clear that Bettman was rigging it.

You have to understand how big a difference it makes. For example, if Vegas had the same rules as Nashville.....they probably wouldnt have had ONE SINGLE PLAYER that they ended up picking.it would have been a completely different roster from top to bottom....because those margins have all the best selections.

The first years vegas played....they didnt have any 4th line forwards or bottom 6 defensemen. Their fourth line were all 3rd line players and their 3rd line were all 2nd line players. And their 5th and 6th defenseman were top 4 defenseman.

For sure. I think NBA teams will only be able to protect 6 players vs the conventional 8. You’re right it would make a huge difference.

[LoveMyRaps]

My biggest concern is Rielly not Marner.

I hope we get rid of both of them this off-season.

Been wanting Rielly gone for years. He's declining rapidly and has zero burst. Looks completely washed. His contract is a nightmare. Doubt any team takes him w/ no retention.

[WaltFrazier]

Ha these guys shoulda been traded a long time ago. Leafs run like a business first. This is what u get. Perennial losers.

To best describe the Leafs of the past 6 decades: Zero effs given as long as money is made.

With Ed Rogers being the oligarch that owns Toronto sports and practically the country with the Telecom cartel, expect more of the same.

Brad Marchand dropping 1g and 2a on the Leafs in a game 7 is such a fitting narrative. Dude has owned the Leafs for 15 years now it's crazy.

With Marner and Tavares being UFAs, expect both to be gone. I bet you those 2 will win Stanley cups elsewhere. It's just like in the mid 90's when the team sucked and Larry Murphy was scapegoated for failure and then went to Detroit to win 2 Cups and who can forget the hot dog man Phil Kessel who won 3 cups after leaving the headache that was Toronto and it's insufferable media and fan base.

Kadri won a Cup after leaving too right?`

[WaltFrazier]

I'm glad I chose to be a die hard Raptors fan and a casual Leafs bandwagoner. They gotta be the worst franchise in the history of sports. They've never been to The Finals in a league with more than 6 teams. Imagine time traveling back to 1967 and telling the players in the locker room that we're 60 years into the future and the Leafs still haven't made it back to The Finals.

I was in grade 8 in 67 when the Leafs last won. The Centennial class. I was a Habs fan and my classmates were all Leafs fans. 6 game series, Leafs had a tough core of 4 defensemen and some rugged forwards. Not as flashy as the flying Frenchmen but just a tough solid team. It was the last year of the Original Six, the next season the league doubled to 12 teams. Very few wore helmets, goalie masks were becoming common. You knew all the players on the Six teams, and what they looked like.

Bobby Orr came in the next year, maybe the most revolutionary player in any sport ever, the way he changed the concept of how a defenseman could play.

I didn't follow the NHL as closely when I got into high school but still watched the Montreal dynasty of the 70s followed by the Islanders and Oilers of the 80s. Even as a casual follower it's crazy looking back over the eras that have come and gone, and how the Leafs still haven't won a Cup in all those years.

[Westside Gunn]

My biggest concern is Rielly not Marner.

I hope we get rid of both of them this off-season.

Been wanting Rielly gone for years. He's declining rapidly and has zero burst. Looks completely washed. His contract is a nightmare. Doubt any team takes him w/ no retention.

He was horrible defensively but I don't think its the right hockey move to get rid of a puck moving defenseman, specially when its hard to find good ones

[Jcity08]

I was in grade 8 in 67 when the Leafs last won. The Centennial class. I was a Habs fan and my classmates were all Leafs fans. 6 game series, Leafs had a tough core of 4 defensemen and some rugged forwards. Not as flashy as the flying Frenchmen but just a tough solid team. It was the last year of the Original Six, the next season the league doubled to 12 teams. Very few wore helmets, goalie masks were becoming common. You knew all the players on the Six teams, and what they looked like.

Bobby Orr came in the next year, maybe the most revolutionary player in any sport ever, the way he changed the concept of how a defenseman could play.

I didn't follow the NHL as closely when I got into high school but still watched the Montreal dynasty of the 70s followed by the Islanders and Oilers of the 80s. Even as a casual follower it's crazy looking back over the eras that have come and gone, and how the Leafs still haven't won a Cup in all those years.

After this loss I just had a random morbid thought, I was born 1989, well after the Leafs last won, I'm in my mid thirties now. Theres a non-zero chance that I'll have lived and died within the drought of a Leafs championship. I know people who have lived & died already within this gap.

[slicedbread2]

Ha these guys shoulda been traded a long time ago. Leafs run like a business first. This is what u get. Perennial losers.

To best describe the Leafs of the past 6 decades: Zero effs given as long as money is made.

With Ed Rogers being the oligarch that owns Toronto sports and practically the country with the Telecom cartel, expect more of the same.

Brad Marchand dropping 1g and 2a on the Leafs in a game 7 is such a fitting narrative. Dude has owned the Leafs for 15 years now it's crazy.

With Marner and Tavares being UFAs, expect both to be gone. I bet you those 2 will win Stanley cups elsewhere. It's just like in the mid 90's when the team sucked and Larry Murphy was scapegoated for failure and then went to Detroit to win 2 Cups and who can forget the hot dog man Phil Kessel who won 3 cups after leaving the headache that was Toronto and it's insufferable media and fan base.

Kadri won a Cup after leaving too right?`

Yup. Forgot him for a moment. Although Kadri had a stupid tendency of head hunting during playoff games that ultimately led to him being traded to Colorado for Tyson Barrie who was made expendable due to the emergence of Cale Makar plus other D-men prospects at the time. Barrie was a total flop who's offensive contributions were outweighed by being a massive liability on the defensive end.

Kadri had to take in some tough lessons, but ultimately wised up and stopped trying to injury players and had the best season of his career resulting in a cup. He managed to get a 7/49M deal from the Flames as the Avalanche had cap constraints and had to let him go.

Honestly crazy how poorly this team has played over the years. Never forget Luke Schenn winning 2 cups in Tampa, Tyler Bozak and Alex Steen winning a cup with St. Louis. It's honestly crazy how some players thrive after leaving here but not surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if Tavares regrets giving up $14M to play here. The Sharks offered him that deal and you wonder if SJ could've won a cup with him there, but oh well.

[MoneyBall]

At this point, it just seems like this particular team has the yips, and they aren't going to ever get over the hump.

What's wild to me is, a team like the Golden Knights was able to go to the Stanley Cup finals in its inaugural season (as well as a second time where they won), while the Leafs continue to struggle year in and year out.

The Golden Knights had zero pressure on them. The Leafs have just about the most pressure in the league (maybe only Montreal has more). Some guys handle pressure well, others not as much. It wouldn't surprise me if Marner flourishes in a small market.

[MiamiSPX]

This is the key takeaway. They pushed it to 7 games against the team that won it all last year, and may very well win it all again this year. I understand the frustration, but it's really not that bad.

Hard disagree. This is not a one-year thing, it's been a string of disappointments over more than a decade. Brings forth the old saying: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Yeah, they pushed to Game 7 but that performance was inexcusable. I saw only the 2nd period and there were many times when I had to do a double take to see if Florida was on a power play (they weren't) because the Leafs played almost the whole period like they were short handed. It was so one-sided at times that I had flashes of the Leafs in the role of the Washington Generals vs. the Harlem Globetrotters.

IMO, they need to clean house - starting at the top. Brendan Shanahan needs to go and then let the new President build his own team with a different vision than Shanahan. This is on Ed Rogers. He has critical Masai but gives his buddies like Shanahan and Shapiro (Jays) long leashes. It's a glaring double standard.

Forget that they "played florida tough". Once again, when it mattered most, their best players were invisible. 4 team goals in the last 4 games of this series, 2 total points in those games from the "big 4". This has happened over and over again.

You cannot allocate so much of your salary cap to a handful of guys who repeatedly disappear in the playoffs. If they're all back next year and they do more tinkering with the 3rd and 4th lines, then nobody should be wasting their time watching.

Couldn't agree more. People think the excuses for Barnes are bad (and they are), the excuses for the Leafs are generally more cringe IMO.

"Just ran into a hot goalie"
"Injuries"
"Supporting cast let them down"
"Pressure of playing in Toronto"
"Goaltending not good enough"

Etc, etc, etc. It seems everything has to break just right for them, including the moon on game nights, and start times of games lol. Give me a break. They have 4 of the 12 highest paid players in the league, maybe just maybe these guys can overcome a bit of adversity?

Normally there is no shame in being shut down by Barkov, most guys are....but if you're the 2nd highest paid player in the league, and have the most goals in the league since your arrival, then yes we do expect you to score more than 1 goal in the 2nd round. That is how this works.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's not the pressure that gets to them. It's that the calls dry up in the playoffs and they don't have the grit to fight through the lack of space. You can't have 4 big money players all trying to win the Lady Bing. We lose to the dirtier team every time and it's the fans that actually stand up for them. The fans then show extreme frustration when the players don't show the same passion.

imo this is a golden opportunity to re-set and take a step back without Marner. They need to re-brand as an underdog team that struggles to score but locks down. What I fear is that Marner's people will work the media, the scapegoat will be Shanahan because it's the easiest move, and Marner will get too much money here to try again. It makes the most sense from a talent-retention standpoint, but it will be the most frustrating result as a fan.

The blend needs to be tweaked, and you can win a cup with less top end talent then the Leafs have. That's been proven time and again.

[WuTang_OG]

Heart plays into it but the biggest thing is the team is filled with demar derozan’s. The entire core 4. Maybe nylander is ok but he aint rantanen. Rest of the guys cant play with it gets super tight in games thus why their elimnation record is horrid Cant get it done in playoffs because they arent good enough. Im not even a leaf fan so from an outside view thats what i see.

[TheGeneral99]

I still think the NHL playoffs is just such a luck fest and game of bounces especially with hot goalies and overtime games.

We've seen the Leafs go to game 7 against teams like the Bruins, Lightning and Panthers who went on to the finals or won the cup.

I think you need to put yourself in a position to be there every year and hope for the best.

Look at the Capitols with Ovechkin - literally disappointments year after year and they finally won in 2018...Ovi's 14th year in the league. Look at how many round 1 losses they had...they didn't even make a conference finals.

Red Wings despite making the finals in 2009 and then despite having prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lindstrom etc. had playoff disappointments for the next decade.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I still think the NHL playoffs is just such a luck fest and game of bounces especially with hot goalies and overtime games.

We've seen the Leafs go to game 7 against teams like the Bruins, Lightning and Panthers who went on to the finals or won the cup.

I think you need to put yourself in a position to be there every year and hope for the best.

Look at the Capitols with Ovechkin - literally disappointments year after year and they finally won in 2018...Ovi's 14th year in the league. Look at how many round 1 losses they had...they didn't even make a conference finals.

Red Wings despite making the finals in 2009 and then despite having prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lindstrom etc. had playoff disappointments for the next decade.

The Red Wings were post-dynasty at that point. Lidstrom was in his late 30s and played just a few more seasons. When they stopped striking oil with late round picks they stopped winning at a high level.

I would argue that Ovechkin had one of the worst supporting casts for a superstar in NHL history for most of his career. Leonosis is one of sports dumbest owners. They were never good because he only ever had one other solid player to play with most of the time.

Parity does make winning it all a challenge, but winning two series with the Leafs abundance of talent should have happened by now. Matthews and Marner refuse to split up and carry their own lines. It absolutely it a between the ears thing with those two. Marner with fewer shots on goal in the playoffs than Bobby McMann is a crime against the paying customer

[Kevin Willis]

To best describe the Leafs of the past 6 decades: Zero effs given as long as money is made.

With Ed Rogers being the oligarch that owns Toronto sports and practically the country with the Telecom cartel, expect more of the same.

Brad Marchand dropping 1g and 2a on the Leafs in a game 7 is such a fitting narrative. Dude has owned the Leafs for 15 years now it's crazy.

With Marner and Tavares being UFAs, expect both to be gone. I bet you those 2 will win Stanley cups elsewhere. It's just like in the mid 90's when the team sucked and Larry Murphy was scapegoated for failure and then went to Detroit to win 2 Cups and who can forget the hot dog man Phil Kessel who won 3 cups after leaving the headache that was Toronto and it's insufferable media and fan base.

Kadri won a Cup after leaving too right?`

Yup. Forgot him for a moment. Although Kadri had a stupid tendency of head hunting during playoff games that ultimately led to him being traded to Colorado for Tyson Barrie who was made expendable due to the emergence of Cale Makar plus other D-men prospects at the time. Barrie was a total flop who's offensive contributions were outweighed by being a massive liability on the defensive end.

Kadri had to take in some tough lessons, but ultimately wised up and stopped trying to injury players and had the best season of his career resulting in a cup. He managed to get a 7/49M deal from the Flames as the Avalanche had cap constraints and had to let him go.

Honestly crazy how poorly this team has played over the years. Never forget Luke Schenn winning 2 cups in Tampa, Tyler Bozak and Alex Steen winning a cup with St. Louis. It's honestly crazy how some players thrive after leaving here but not surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if Tavares regrets giving up $14M to play here. The Sharks offered him that deal and you wonder if SJ could've won a cup with him there, but oh well.

I don't think Tavares coming here was about money, more about a dream and winning a cup in T.O. and maybe an under the table deal after retirement. We'll see.

Those guys winning the cup is something. They also had the benefit of a great goalie which definitely had an impact on this series.

[ItsDanger]

I still think the NHL playoffs is just such a luck fest and game of bounces especially with hot goalies and overtime games.

We've seen the Leafs go to game 7 against teams like the Bruins, Lightning and Panthers who went on to the finals or won the cup.

I think you need to put yourself in a position to be there every year and hope for the best.

Look at the Capitols with Ovechkin - literally disappointments year after year and they finally won in 2018...Ovi's 14th year in the league. Look at how many round 1 losses they had...they didn't even make a conference finals.

Red Wings despite making the finals in 2009 and then despite having prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lindstrom etc. had playoff disappointments for the next decade.

It's not luck. Excluding covid format year, Dallas Stars have made conference finals 4 out of 5 seasons. With 32 teams now, that's not luck.

[Raps in 4]

I still think the NHL playoffs is just such a luck fest and game of bounces especially with hot goalies and overtime games.

We've seen the Leafs go to game 7 against teams like the Bruins, Lightning and Panthers who went on to the finals or won the cup.

I think you need to put yourself in a position to be there every year and hope for the best.

Look at the Capitols with Ovechkin - literally disappointments year after year and they finally won in 2018...Ovi's 14th year in the league. Look at how many round 1 losses they had...they didn't even make a conference finals.

Red Wings despite making the finals in 2009 and then despite having prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lindstrom etc. had playoff disappointments for the next decade.

It's not luck. Excluding covid format year, Dallas Stars have made conference finals 4 out of 5 seasons. With 32 teams now, that's not luck.

Same with Tampa making the finals three years in a row (and winning it twice).

[Coco Costanza]

At this point, it just seems like this particular team has the yips, and they aren't going to ever get over the hump.

What's wild to me is, a team like the Golden Knights was able to go to the Stanley Cup finals in its inaugural season (as well as a second time where they won), while the Leafs continue to struggle year in and year out.

The Golden Knights had zero pressure on them. The Leafs have just about the most pressure in the league (maybe only Montreal has more). Some guys handle pressure well, others not as much. It wouldn't surprise me if Marner flourishes in a small market.

This makes me wonder (as I'm not really a hockey fan), if character is more important than skill? Obviously you need to have players who have talent, but there seems to be something intangible that the best teams have.