What is the plan here?

[Tripod]

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

HOU - Amen (2nd overall), Jabari (2nd overall), Reed Sheppard (FVV eventual replacement 3rd overall), Jalen Green (2nd overall), Eason (17th overall), Sengun (16th overall)

OKC- Holgren (2nd overall) , Jalen Williams (12th overall)

SA- Wemby (5th overall), Castle (3rd), Harper (2nd)

you can nitpick about how these guys fell exactly in the spots they did, or how good they'll all eventually be but the point stands..

Bottoming out/rebuilding properly for a couple yrs to get elite prospects + be in full rebuilding mode to acquire additional lottery range 1st round picks, is what will keep these teams young contenders for a long time.

= the perfect outcome of a rebuild

and 3 of the most "full rebuild" franchises a couple yrs ago did it.

So it's alot more successful then many want to admit.

BI 2, RJ 3, Barnes 4, Yak 9, 2025 pick 9

This is fun

[Pointgod]

I prefer to be OKC, HOU, SA who bottomed out properly for only a couple yrs and because of competent management are the most promising situations in the league, loaded with elite young talent, and setup to win for a very long time.

We were in the Wemby slot (5th worse overall) prior to the Poeltl trade.

So they replaced 2 max talent players OG + Siakam and Fred with -- Quickley, RJ, Ingram, and whatever role player we select at 9

AND THE REBUILD IS ALREADY OVER

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

And we got lucky moving up from 7th to 4th pick. This “rebuild” looks a lot different with Jonathan Kuminga instead of Scottie. What’s your point exactly?

[Appostis]

Hard to say because the definition of treadmill changes so much from person to person....for example some will still consider the Pacers a treadmill team despite b2b ECF appearances. Cavs could also be considered a treadmill team because they fall flat in the playoffs.

You can be a treadmill team at different tiers.....if Raptors are the 1st seed every season but continuously get eliminated in the 2nd round nobody is going to be satisfied with that.

I think the team is closer than ever to being branded a treadmill team. It's like that '21 team. Could we have potentially topped out as a 50-win team that season and beat the 76ers to advance to the 2nd round? It was possible... but more than likely it would go wrong, and it did... I feel like we might be retreading such waters.

Ingram goes down with an injury. Scottie doesn't have another gear to unlock. Dick disappoints again. #9 is likely decent but 2 years away from even being considered starter material etc. Shead/Walter/Mogob continue to play well but don't blow you away... then you're on a roster with a bunch of role-players and no star. You're pretty damn close to the lux and can't add anyone substantial anyway. You're in no position to acquire any more lottery picks and it's starting to look pretty treadmill...

Easily can happen. Feels like we hopped from one mediocre core to the next in the last 3 years?

Or the BI/Scottie core works. One player on this young team breaks out? Some assets traded for a final piece and we have ourselves a good team?

Would you prefer tanking for half a decade in this flat lottery odd environment?

[nivisi9]

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

HOU - Amen (2nd overall), Jabari (2nd overall), Reed Sheppard (FVV eventual replacement 3rd overall), Jalen Green (2nd overall), Eason (17th overall), Sengun (16th overall)

OKC- Holgren (2nd overall) , Jalen Williams (12th overall)

SA- Wemby (5th overall), Castle (3rd), Harper (2nd)

you can nitpick about how these guys fell exactly in the spots they did, or how good they'll all eventually be but the point stands..

Bottoming out/rebuilding properly for a couple yrs to get elite prospects + be in full rebuilding mode to acquire additional lottery range 1st round picks, is what will keep these teams young contenders for a long time.

= the perfect outcome of a rebuild

and 3 of the most "full rebuild" franchises a couple yrs ago did it.

So it's alot more successful then many want to admit.

BI 2, RJ 3, Barnes 4, Yak 9, 2025 pick 9

This is fun

our guys are cast off, as in dumped by other teams in early careers..

that doesn't really fit the point - drafting elite prospects "that you end up wanting to keep" because their/youre good and worth keeping together..did I have to mention that part?

Not every high draft pick of all time works out ideal obviously, but more shots at the elite ones and competent management gives you the best shot..

as with SA/HOU/OKC was an example of 3 teams who did recently over last couple yrs, turned it around, very bright future, just off top of my head..

holyyy reaching for cope

If the general point is rebuilding properly/PATIENTLY and acquiring elite prospects at the top/near top of draft gives you decent/best chance at a bright future (ex. OKC, SA,HOU)

you making that point with the Raps roster and that it isn't always the case, actually just shows Raps picked up a collection of the guys from teams who didn't make it work and decided to give up on those guys

Impatient, shortcut, treadmill framework

[Clutch0z24]

People arguing about "We have top picks on the team already" Vs "We can build just as good as these teams through the draft" Both can be right and both can be wrong so its a little dumb of an argument....

Not all top picks work out no one said they do....But it is factual that the higher you pick, The smarter your front office is , The more cracks you get at top picks you have a much better chance getting a legit franchise player in that situation...And yes if you get the pick right you can turn your team around in the blink of an eye...And there have been alot of teams in the past that this has been the case for...

On the other hand...

You could also have bad front office that seem to never get the picks right (Kings/T-Wolves back in the days could of had elite all star level teams if they made the right picks) And thats how you end up with meh players and a lotto bound team every season....Which is possible to be stuck in that mode for a long time...

For me when i say we should have traded off all our guys once we got Barnes to play the draft that was also me and others confidence in Masai when it comes to drafting....I personally think Masai is one of if not the best drafters in the league (Ofc he missed on a few picks) But he missed on picks in the late 20s...Hes never had top high end draft picks besides Barnes since he got here....I think if Masai would have went draft mode earlier he would have built a legit title contender by now if he took the Tank more serious....Since he would have gotten the picks right...

For example the T-Wolves back in the day got the pick right in Kevin Love in 2008....Had 2 top 6 picks in 2009 where they could of had Curry/DeRozan...Getting the picks right matters alot more....Not saying picks late in the draft can't be good but a less likely chance...

That being said we just need to hope we get this 9th pick right because the team is pretty mid next year...We are depending on a injury prone Ingram t lead us to the promise land....

[Shakril]

You guys are talkin as if OKC and SA already have won multiple Championships.

SA had exactly 1 tank year btw. OKC had 2 bad years because of Shai injuries.
Houston doesnt have a player that falls in the superstar category for now.

In essence, you still dont get it that tanking doesnt work. Beeing bad 1 or 2 years is not automaticly a tank.

What Detroit did prior to this year, thats tanking. Lets see how far they will go before we say that tanking works.


In my opinion raptors did the right thing. Aquire young talent, if by trade or draft doesnt matter. The only older guy they aquired was Poeltl and he is in his prime.

[Harry Palmer]

Maybe there’s a concept of a plan.

[deck]

HOU - Amen (2nd overall), Jabari (2nd overall), Reed Sheppard (FVV eventual replacement 3rd overall), Jalen Green (2nd overall), Eason (17th overall), Sengun (16th overall)

OKC- Holgren (2nd overall) , Jalen Williams (12th overall)

SA- Wemby (5th overall), Castle (3rd), Harper (2nd)

you can nitpick about how these guys fell exactly in the spots they did, or how good they'll all eventually be but the point stands..

Bottoming out/rebuilding properly for a couple yrs to get elite prospects + be in full rebuilding mode to acquire additional lottery range 1st round picks, is what will keep these teams young contenders for a long time.

= the perfect outcome of a rebuild

and 3 of the most "full rebuild" franchises a couple yrs ago did it.

So it's alot more successful then many want to admit.

BI 2, RJ 3, Barnes 4, Yak 9, 2025 pick 9

This is fun

our guys are cast off, as in dumped by other teams in early careers..

that doesn't really fit the point - drafting elite prospects "that you end up wanting to keep" because their/youre good and worth keeping together..did I have to mention that part?

Not every high draft pick of all time works out ideal obviously, but more shots at the elite ones and competent management gives you the best shot..

as with SA/HOU/OKC was an example of 3 teams who did recently over last couple yrs, turned it around, very bright future, just off top of my head..

holyyy reaching for cope

If the general point is rebuilding properly/PATIENTLY and acquiring elite prospects at the top/near top of draft gives you decent/best chance at a bright future (ex. OKC, SA,HOU)

you making that point with the Raps roster and that it isn't always the case, actually just shows Raps picked up a collection of the guys from teams who didn't make it work and decided to give up on those guys

Impatient, shortcut, treadmill framework

Were you not here for 2019? We won by demonstrating patience and building a team without any of the arbitrary prerequisites you are declaring are necessary. Lowry was also a cast-away, for what it is worth.

You are making an argument that we are locked into a treadmill. We are less than 6 years removed from 2019 where it was proved you are wrong on this point.

[Steelo Green]

The amount of deflection, whataboutisms, and pontification about being pre title fans as a point of intelligence is both comedic and unsurprising.

[OakleyDokely]

I mean UTH had a plan. Tanked all season, gutted the roster, rested everyone and finished last. Then the lottery happened and now they pick 5th, outside the range of the all the potential game changing talent.

You have to be pretty adoptable because things never go according plan. All you can really do is add as much talent as possible by maximizing returns on trades, free agent signings and draft picks.

Reality is, it does take some luck to build a championship squad and there's no guarantee for success regardless of the plan you think you have in place.

[nikster]

BI 2, RJ 3, Barnes 4, Yak 9, 2025 pick 9

This is fun

our guys are cast off, as in dumped by other teams in early careers..

that doesn't really fit the point - drafting elite prospects "that you end up wanting to keep" because their/youre good and worth keeping together..did I have to mention that part?

Not every high draft pick of all time works out ideal obviously, but more shots at the elite ones and competent management gives you the best shot..

as with SA/HOU/OKC was an example of 3 teams who did recently over last couple yrs, turned it around, very bright future, just off top of my head..

holyyy reaching for cope

If the general point is rebuilding properly/PATIENTLY and acquiring elite prospects at the top/near top of draft gives you decent/best chance at a bright future (ex. OKC, SA,HOU)

you making that point with the Raps roster and that it isn't always the case, actually just shows Raps picked up a collection of the guys from teams who didn't make it work and decided to give up on those guys

Impatient, shortcut, treadmill framework

Were you not here for 2019? We won by demonstrating patience and building a team without any of the arbitrary prerequisites you are declaring are necessary. Lowry was also a cast-away, for what it is worth.

You are making an argument that we are locked into a treadmill. We are less than 6 years removed from 2019 where it was proved you are wrong on this point.

I don't understand how this is a treadmill considering this is basically the first year with this core, and everyone is relatively young and we own all future picks.

The only players we have from 2 years ago are Scottie (who was in his 2nd year) and Poeltl. It is a complete roster overhaul

[gpoon]

People are sleeping on BI — he might be the best offensive player Toronto has ever had, outside of Kawhi and Vince.

[Tripod]

HOU - Amen (2nd overall), Jabari (2nd overall), Reed Sheppard (FVV eventual replacement 3rd overall), Jalen Green (2nd overall), Eason (17th overall), Sengun (16th overall)

OKC- Holgren (2nd overall) , Jalen Williams (12th overall)

SA- Wemby (5th overall), Castle (3rd), Harper (2nd)

you can nitpick about how these guys fell exactly in the spots they did, or how good they'll all eventually be but the point stands..

Bottoming out/rebuilding properly for a couple yrs to get elite prospects + be in full rebuilding mode to acquire additional lottery range 1st round picks, is what will keep these teams young contenders for a long time.

= the perfect outcome of a rebuild

and 3 of the most "full rebuild" franchises a couple yrs ago did it.

So it's alot more successful then many want to admit.

BI 2, RJ 3, Barnes 4, Yak 9, 2025 pick 9

This is fun

our guys are cast off, as in dumped by other teams in early careers..

that doesn't really fit the point - drafting elite prospects "that you end up wanting to keep" because their/youre good and worth keeping together..did I have to mention that part?

Not every high draft pick of all time works out ideal obviously, but more shots at the elite ones and competent management gives you the best shot..

as with SA/HOU/OKC was an example of 3 teams who did recently over last couple yrs, turned it around, very bright future, just off top of my head..

holyyy reaching for cope

If the general point is rebuilding properly/PATIENTLY and acquiring elite prospects at the top/near top of draft gives you decent/best chance at a bright future (ex. OKC, SA,HOU)

you making that point with the Raps roster and that it isn't always the case, actually just shows Raps picked up a collection of the guys from teams who didn't make it work and decided to give up on those guys

Impatient, shortcut, treadmill framework

OKC has 1 top 10 pick playing and is their 3rd best player right now. And their best player was aquired via trade.

Houston you list but none are stars yet. Thompson was a positive impact on winning, Smith was a bench player, Green is a negative that they will try and trade and Reed hasn't played yet. They didn't win this year BEACAUSE of tanking multiple years.

And again, SA got lucky drafting a generational player. Replace Wemby with Scoot and its a waste of time. But certain people ignore those other outcomes.

The ENTITE point is you can find talent in various ways. Our 2019 Raptors are a great example. CASTOFFS Lowry, Serge. Marc, Danny, Kawhi...since if you get a guy in trade he is a cast-off, right?

[OakleyDokely]

Final 4 teams, win totals last 4 seasons:

NYK: 37, 47, 50, 51
IND: 25, 35, 47, 50
MIN: 46, 42, 56, 49
OKC: 24, 40, 57, 68

First thing that's noticeable is the progression from season to season. It usually doesn't happen right away. It takes time to build team chemistry and a team identity.

Second thing that stands out is that there are lot of mid to high 40 win, low 50 win seasons in there. Given that the current cap environment leads to a lot more parity, those unbeatable dynasties everyone was afraid of in prior years are going to be very hard to keep together long term. So if your team is in that 45-50 win mix, you have a chance in any given year.

For the Raps, the key is to show progress next year. If they can jump up a tier and get into a top 6 spot, or close to it, it's worth to build out from that. If they stagnate again, then you have to think about bigger changes.

[YogurtProducer]

I love how pro-tankers keeps holding up Houston as a gold example to replicate when Houston got there with the exact opposite playbook: Sengun was drafted 19th and then they overpaid role players like FVV, Adams, and Brooks.

And SA who got lucky winning a lotto in a generational talent year AND moving up the other 2 years. That exact same "competent mgt" could have Scoot, Holland and #6 in this draft.

Oh, and OKC has 1 top 10 pick on their team and best player was aquited thru trade. And they got to rebuild by trading guys who were top 10 MVP candidates. So easy to replicate.

And we got lucky moving up from 7th to 4th pick. This “rebuild” looks a lot different with Jonathan Kuminga instead of Scottie. What’s your point exactly?

The whole thing looks different with Kuminga instead of Scottie. WE likely have no success in 2021-22 with Kuminga in Scotties place and OG/Siakam get traded a whole year/two earlier.

Its just more proof that rebuilding is as much luck as it is skill. We could have tanked the entire year, won 0 games, and we still would be picking 5th with how the lottery shook out. On the flip side, if we won 5 more games we would be picking 2nd.

[deck]

our guys are cast off, as in dumped by other teams in early careers..

that doesn't really fit the point - drafting elite prospects "that you end up wanting to keep" because their/youre good and worth keeping together..did I have to mention that part?

Not every high draft pick of all time works out ideal obviously, but more shots at the elite ones and competent management gives you the best shot..

as with SA/HOU/OKC was an example of 3 teams who did recently over last couple yrs, turned it around, very bright future, just off top of my head..

holyyy reaching for cope

If the general point is rebuilding properly/PATIENTLY and acquiring elite prospects at the top/near top of draft gives you decent/best chance at a bright future (ex. OKC, SA,HOU)

you making that point with the Raps roster and that it isn't always the case, actually just shows Raps picked up a collection of the guys from teams who didn't make it work and decided to give up on those guys

Impatient, shortcut, treadmill framework

Were you not here for 2019? We won by demonstrating patience and building a team without any of the arbitrary prerequisites you are declaring are necessary. Lowry was also a cast-away, for what it is worth.

You are making an argument that we are locked into a treadmill. We are less than 6 years removed from 2019 where it was proved you are wrong on this point.

I don't understand how this is a treadmill considering this is basically the first year with this core, and everyone is relatively young and we own all future picks.

The only players we have from 2 years ago are Scottie (who was in his 2nd year) and Poeltl. It is a complete roster overhaul

For some, if you don't have a super star in hand, you are tread-milling.

[Duffman100]

Were you not here for 2019? We won by demonstrating patience and building a team without any of the arbitrary prerequisites you are declaring are necessary. Lowry was also a cast-away, for what it is worth.

You are making an argument that we are locked into a treadmill. We are less than 6 years removed from 2019 where it was proved you are wrong on this point.

I don't understand how this is a treadmill considering this is basically the first year with this core, and everyone is relatively young and we own all future picks.

The only players we have from 2 years ago are Scottie (who was in his 2nd year) and Poeltl. It is a complete roster overhaul

For some, if you don't have a super star in hand, you are tread-milling.

Or if you're not tanking hard for that superstar and get him in the draft. Completely ignoring the disaster that happened to the majority of tanking teams this year with that strategy.

[DG88]

I think right now is to continue to move forward in building the team. We're still adding 2 more talented piece to the roster from the draft. We're probably a Playoff team next year and at worst a Play-In team. It's going to be a mix of internal development and smart trades to get us to being an ECF threat every year.

Darko has set the offensive foundation in his first year and the defensive one this year. Now it's putting them both together and competing with the other teams in the NBA. I'd expect us to finish above .500 next year.

[GLF]

Final 4 teams, win totals last 4 seasons:

NYK: 37, 47, 50, 51
IND: 25, 35, 47, 50
MIN: 46, 42, 56, 49
OKC: 24, 40, 57, 68

First thing that's noticeable is the progression from season to season. It usually doesn't happen right away. It takes time to build team chemistry and a team identity.

Second thing that stands out is that there are lot of mid to high 40 win, low 50 win seasons in there. Given that the current cap environment leads to a lot more parity, those unbeatable dynasties everyone was afraid of in prior years are going to be very hard to keep together long term. So if your team is in that 45-50 win mix, you have a chance in any given year.

For the Raps, the key is to show progress next year. If they can jump up a tier and get into a top 6 spot, or close to it, it's worth to build out from that. If they stagnate again, then you have to think about bigger changes.

And I bet you anything the players those teams had in that first year are not the same in the final year. Smart trades were made to get to them to where they are. It’s not just all tanking. This isn’t Raptors final form. People acting like Masai thinks this team as is is a championship contender are being disingenuous. You have to take steps to get to being a contender. You don’t just go from the bottom to the top in one offseason. Everything that isn’t tanking or contender isn’t treadmill. There has to be more context and nuance when we’re talking about treadmill.

[djsunyc]

Final 4 teams, win totals last 4 seasons:

NYK: 37, 47, 50, 51
IND: 25, 35, 47, 50
MIN: 46, 42, 56, 49
OKC: 24, 40, 57, 68

First thing that's noticeable is the progression from season to season. It usually doesn't happen right away. It takes time to build team chemistry and a team identity.

Second thing that stands out is that there are lot of mid to high 40 win, low 50 win seasons in there. Given that the current cap environment leads to a lot more parity, those unbeatable dynasties everyone was afraid of in prior years are going to be very hard to keep together long term. So if your team is in that 45-50 win mix, you have a chance in any given year.

For the Raps, the key is to show progress next year. If they can jump up a tier and get into a top 6 spot, or close to it, it's worth to build out from that. If they stagnate again, then you have to think about bigger changes.

And I bet you anything the players those teams had in that first year are not the same in the final year. Smart trades were made to get to them to where they are. It’s not just all tanking. This isn’t Raptors final form. People acting like Masai thinks this team as is is a championship contender are being disingenuous. You have to take steps to get to being a contender. You don’t just go from the bottom to the top in one offseason. Everything that isn’t tanking or contender isn’t treadmill. There has to be more context and nuance when we’re talking about treadmill.

agreed. for me, it's more thinking they know basketball and what needs to be done...exactly the way they want it or it's wrong. 100% ego and nothing to do with basketball. kills almost every thread.

thhe reality is that none of us know anything and we should all be open to any path or scenario.