Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school

Moderators: cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid

Mr Loggins
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,160
And1: 2,498
Joined: Jul 22, 2009
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#321 » by Mr Loggins » Sun Sep 4, 2022 1:27 pm

flow wrote:
Mr Loggins wrote:
flow wrote:
Cleveland came into this off-season needing a forward. Now, post-trade, they need two forwards. And are down 3 firsts to boot.

That's not a win.


That’s a myopic view.

When Cleveland early on was mentioned as a Donavan Mitchell suitor, the laugh line was “yeah, not without Garland or Mobley”.

Well, here we are; they got a top 18-25 player in the nba for two flawed players, a 22yo rookie, and picks.

The three firsts in the future are scary, but if they a
end up in the bottom of the first round - like they should- there’s not a single elite piece in there.

A lot can happen between now and 2029 obviously, it seems like there is more risk with Utah than Cleveland.


To the contrary, knee-jerk chest-thumping because you got the star player is what's myopic.

.


uh, no?

i think myself and most who like the trade for cleveland are not going nuts about this year, but rather the long term outlook.

You know, adding a 25yo star to three other studs under 24 they already have on the roster.

You, on the other hand, were the one bemoaning the loss of Lauri Markannan on what it means to the Cavs *this* season.

Might be time for some self-reflection
User avatar
CallMeKahn
Veteran
Posts: 2,571
And1: 1,919
Joined: Feb 17, 2013
     

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#322 » by CallMeKahn » Sun Sep 4, 2022 1:43 pm

SK21209 wrote:Trading your stars for picks is the easiest thing in the the world for a GM to do, so no Ainge hasn’t “taken anyone to school”. I’ll be impressed if\when they actually find and develop good players with those picks.


Agreed. The only thing he did was getting the value for this players he was looking for. That's a good GM trait. If he builds a contender with those picks, he will have taught a Master's class. If anything, Kleiman and Altman have done some educating in terms of building something. Ainge has done it before as well, but just giving credit where it's due for fast turnarounds.
daoneandonly wrote:Utah doesnt have anyhting close value wise to get Dallas to even pick up the phone


Said in reference to Utah's trade assets in a potential Doncic deal.
Luv those Knicks
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,603
And1: 5,895
Joined: Jul 21, 2001
Location: East of West and West of East.
Contact:

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#323 » by Luv those Knicks » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:14 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
you need a lot of luck and good breaks to win a title.
but seattle and philly showed that such strategy allowed them to cumulate A LOT of assets and talent in a very short time.
if anything, they are amazing success stories, especially if you are a non destination market unable to attract talent and very challenged in retaining it.


I appreciate this post. The Nets could have beaten Milwaukee if not for the Kyrie injury and when people talk about past titles, bad breaks are often ignored. The Knicks title in 73, and, I love my knicks and that was the first title I remember. I was too young in 70, but now that I read, (I didn't read newspapers at that age), I know that the Celtics lost Hondo (Havlicek to anyone who doesn't know the name) in the series and the Celts had a great team that year.

That's not good management or brilliant strategy when the other team has a key player go down, possibly the better team's player gets hurt - it's luck.

Lucky breaks (unlucky for the other team) plays a role often enough that any arguments of "this always works" should be taken with a grain of salt.

I love my knicks, but it's been an ugly 20 years. I think we have the worst record in the entire NBA over that 20 year stretch and often had the highest salary too - that's just bad. Leon has made mistakes for sure, but he's better than some other guys running the show that we've had in the past.

And I maintain, the Knicks paying a kings ransom for Mitchell, I don't think he's enough. I also don't think he's the best fit next to Brunson. I respect the heck out of what Ainge has done, even if this full dump and collect picks has never worked, no team has ever acquired as many picks as he did.

I respected the Magic when they did their full rebuild, adding Grant Hill and Steve Francis and added them to a young Dwight Howard. They added the wrong players, but their approach was, in my opinion, deadly and brilliant. Imagine if they'd gone younger, added T-mac instead (He wanted to go there) and another young player to grow with Dwight Howard and Turk and . . . that could have been a title contender, maybe more than one.

So . . . nobody knows the future, and they have to make good moves and be lucky going forward, but I 100% respect what Ainge has done this off-season.

I think the Wolves overpaid. I think everyone thinks that. I think the Cavs made a respectable gamble and I think Ainge has a ton to work with now. An absolute ton of future capital.

As for my Knicks . . . they need a miracle. Maybe Quickley becomes an all-star. Maybe RJ becomes a 40% shooter from 3. . . . but I see a team of role and support players, and giving up the farm for Mitchell, I'd see a team that's top heavy, too thin, not enough picks or defense and not well balanced. Knicks, in my opinion, did the right thing not meeting Ainge's demands for the swap.

Anyhoo . . . yes, my posts are too long. I know.
God invented war so Americans would learn geography.
Luv those Knicks
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,603
And1: 5,895
Joined: Jul 21, 2001
Location: East of West and West of East.
Contact:

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#324 » by Luv those Knicks » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:22 am

CallMeKahn wrote:
SK21209 wrote:Trading your stars for picks is the easiest thing in the the world for a GM to do, so no Ainge hasn’t “taken anyone to school”. I’ll be impressed if\when they actually find and develop good players with those picks.


Agreed. The only thing he did was getting the value for this players he was looking for. That's a good GM trait. If he builds a contender with those picks, he will have taught a Master's class. If anything, Kleiman and Altman have done some educating in terms of building something. Ainge has done it before as well, but just giving credit where it's due for fast turnarounds.


Ainge deserves credit for not selling low. Teams in his position have often sold low in the past. Even if you disagree with the strategy, nearly everyone says he won the swap with Minnesota and he got fair value return for Mitchell for sure, even from a position of needing to make the trade.

And either of the top 2 picks in the 2023 draft would be a tremendous prize. With the new lottery, that's, I don't know, a 40%-45% chance at a top 2 pick but I think Ainge did well and I'd take what he did in a heartbeat if it was my team.
God invented war so Americans would learn geography.
BK_2020
RealGM
Posts: 17,060
And1: 15,790
Joined: Sep 08, 2020
 

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#325 » by BK_2020 » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:54 am

Luv those Knicks wrote:
CallMeKahn wrote:
SK21209 wrote:Trading your stars for picks is the easiest thing in the the world for a GM to do, so no Ainge hasn’t “taken anyone to school”. I’ll be impressed if\when they actually find and develop good players with those picks.


And either of the top 2 picks in the 2023 draft would be a tremendous prize. With the new lottery, that's, I don't know, a 40%-45% chance at a top 2 pick but I think Ainge did well and I'd take what he did in a heartbeat if it was my team.

A team finishing in the bottom 3 has a little better than 1 in 4 chance of landing a top 2 pick. And Utah is by no means guaranteed to finish in the bottom three.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app
Luv those Knicks
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,603
And1: 5,895
Joined: Jul 21, 2001
Location: East of West and West of East.
Contact:

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#326 » by Luv those Knicks » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:03 am

BK_2020 wrote:
Luv those Knicks wrote:
CallMeKahn wrote:
And either of the top 2 picks in the 2023 draft would be a tremendous prize. With the new lottery, that's, I don't know, a 40%-45% chance at a top 2 pick but I think Ainge did well and I'd take what he did in a heartbeat if it was my team.

A team finishing in the bottom 3 has a little better than 1 in 4 chance of landing a top 2 pick. And Utah is by no means guaranteed to finish in the bottom three.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app


Fair enough. They might not be the overall worst as I forecasted. A few teams are pretty bad this year - LOL.
God invented war so Americans would learn geography.
User avatar
Ryoga Hibiki
RealGM
Posts: 12,626
And1: 7,773
Joined: Nov 14, 2001
Location: Warszawa now, but from Northern Italy

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#327 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:42 am

Luv those Knicks wrote:
Tukkerwolf wrote:
I'll turn the question around. How many teams have traded a bunch of picks for a superstar and won a title? Maybe the Raptors and Leonard, but that's rare too.

Lakers with Davis
Bucks with Holiday
Raptors with Leonard

Three of the last four champions used that strategy to win a title... And in the Bucks case it's not even a superstar. So the Cavs and Wolves look to have picked a pretty succesful strategy...


The Leonard case is a different one as Toronto gave up very little for a one year rental, not the kind of haul teams had to give for the likes of George, Harden or, this summer, Gobert and Mitchell.
Davis and Holiday, on the other hand, arrived to a team that already had their #1 guy and were hence "complementary" pieces rather than the new face of the franchise.
I think this is the key point, you need an already strong core and a Tier 1 superstar in place to have this strategy working.
Moreover, the Lakers won the title in 2020 but things went extremely poorly in 2021 and 2022.
It might have worked for them (and luck ALWAYS plays a part) but it was extremely risky and definitely far from proven recipe for long term success
Слава Украине!
User avatar
ShazamDaShiznt
Analyst
Posts: 3,156
And1: 4,767
Joined: Jul 01, 2016

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#328 » by ShazamDaShiznt » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:36 pm

Ainge is doing what Hinkie was doing before he was forced to leave the Sixers. Talk about double standards, eh, let's see how long teams like Jazz or Thunder stay at the bottom and we will compare them to those Sixers.

OKC now has two very bad seasons and the third one is upcoming as well since their rookie draft got injured immediately. Similarly to those Sixers that had to keep Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid out for their first season.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,187
And1: 5,035
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#329 » by JonFromVA » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:10 pm

The amazing thing Danny did here is not act desperate. Time will tell about the players he picked up and things like can the Jazz actually tank to a top pick, but the picks he got in the trade represent the NBA's new currency and if/when he wants he can rebuild the Jazz pretty quickly if he's willing to trade those picks.
jfs1000d
RealGM
Posts: 28,084
And1: 14,936
Joined: Jun 25, 2004

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#330 » by jfs1000d » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:12 pm

ShazamDaShiznt wrote:Ainge is doing what Hinkie was doing before he was forced to leave the Sixers. Talk about double standards, eh, let's see how long teams like Jazz or Thunder stay at the bottom and we will compare them to those Sixers.

OKC now has two very bad seasons and the third one is upcoming as well since their rookie draft got injured immediately. Similarly to those Sixers that had to keep Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid out for their first season.


Hinkie was terrible. There is no double standard. Hinkie had a multi year tank strategy. Ainge at least. is acquiring assets and will try and deploy them.
mg
General Manager
Posts: 8,821
And1: 4,668
Joined: Jun 12, 2003

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#331 » by mg » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:29 pm

Mr Loggins wrote:
flow wrote:
Mr Loggins wrote:
That’s a myopic view.

When Cleveland early on was mentioned as a Donavan Mitchell suitor, the laugh line was “yeah, not without Garland or Mobley”.

Well, here we are; they got a top 18-25 player in the nba for two flawed players, a 22yo rookie, and picks.

The three firsts in the future are scary, but if they a
end up in the bottom of the first round - like they should- there’s not a single elite piece in there.

A lot can happen between now and 2029 obviously, it seems like there is more risk with Utah than Cleveland.


To the contrary, knee-jerk chest-thumping because you got the star player is what's myopic.

.


uh, no?

i think myself and most who like the trade for cleveland are not going nuts about this year, but rather the long term outlook.

You know, adding a 25yo star to three other studs under 24 they already have on the roster.

You, on the other hand, were the one bemoaning the loss of Lauri Markannan on what it means to the Cavs *this* season.

Might be time for some self-reflection


FWIW Mitchell is now 26. Not a huge difference but he is 5 years older than Mobley.

I think it's all going to come down to how their backcourt fits on both ends of the floor. I'm assuming there will be a period of adjustment and they are probably too young to win the EC. They might not be able to address the issues at the wing until next summer. That basically gives them 2 years before Mitchell is eligible to opt out. As already mentioned alot can happen. There is certainly some risk but I can understand why the Cavs made the move if they truly believe they have a franchise player in Mobley. This definitely speeds up their process from being a young upstart team to a squad expected to make the playoffs.
sp6r=underrated
RealGM
Posts: 20,910
And1: 13,742
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
 

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#332 » by sp6r=underrated » Wed May 21, 2025 1:56 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:It isn't hard to trade good players for picks years into the future. The main reason it doesn't happen often is one, getting good players like Gobert and Mitchell is hard. Two, ownership is unwilling to have a terrible team for years while you wait for the picks. Three, fans get pissed and stop buying tickets which makes even pro-tank owners reluctant. Forth it pisses off the NBA to have an unmarketable team, ala Hinkie Sixers.

The hardest part, getting good players, was done by a previous GM. Points 2-4 have little to do with Ainge. He did some nice trades but people are losing their mind.


I've been wrong about a lot on this board but I was right about the above. Total teardowns aren't the hard part of a rebuild. And acquiring picks is super easy if the previous GM acquired good players like Mitchell and Gobert.
Special_Puppy
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,036
And1: 2,694
Joined: Sep 23, 2023

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#333 » by Special_Puppy » Wed May 21, 2025 2:00 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:It isn't hard to trade good players for picks years into the future. The main reason it doesn't happen often is one, getting good players like Gobert and Mitchell is hard. Two, ownership is unwilling to have a terrible team for years while you wait for the picks. Three, fans get pissed and stop buying tickets which makes even pro-tank owners reluctant. Forth it pisses off the NBA to have an unmarketable team, ala Hinkie Sixers.

The hardest part, getting good players, was done by a previous GM. Points 2-4 have little to do with Ainge. He did some nice trades but people are losing their mind.


I've been wrong about a lot on this board but I was right about the above. Total teardowns aren't the hard part of a rebuild. And acquiring picks is super easy if the previous GM acquired good players like Mitchell and Gobert.


People were really sucking off Ainge for tearing down a 5+ SRS team with nothing to show for it 3 years latter.
sp6r=underrated
RealGM
Posts: 20,910
And1: 13,742
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
 

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#334 » by sp6r=underrated » Wed May 21, 2025 2:05 am

Special_Puppy wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:It isn't hard to trade good players for picks years into the future. The main reason it doesn't happen often is one, getting good players like Gobert and Mitchell is hard. Two, ownership is unwilling to have a terrible team for years while you wait for the picks. Three, fans get pissed and stop buying tickets which makes even pro-tank owners reluctant. Forth it pisses off the NBA to have an unmarketable team, ala Hinkie Sixers.

The hardest part, getting good players, was done by a previous GM. Points 2-4 have little to do with Ainge. He did some nice trades but people are losing their mind.


I've been wrong about a lot on this board but I was right about the above. Total teardowns aren't the hard part of a rebuild. And acquiring picks is super easy if the previous GM acquired good players like Mitchell and Gobert.


People were really sucking off Ainge for tearing down a 5+ SRS team with nothing to show for it 3 years latter.


You can make the argument for the sell-off. Mitchell wanted out but it wasn't visible because he was mature in asking out rather than the way someone like Harden was.

But I don't get the praise for trading good players you didn't acquire for picks. Unless a GM is horrible they can get a ton of picks if they trade away talent. That doesn't require a lot of skill and you shouldn't get praise for it.
Special_Puppy
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,036
And1: 2,694
Joined: Sep 23, 2023

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#335 » by Special_Puppy » Wed May 21, 2025 2:08 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
I've been wrong about a lot on this board but I was right about the above. Total teardowns aren't the hard part of a rebuild. And acquiring picks is super easy if the previous GM acquired good players like Mitchell and Gobert.


People were really sucking off Ainge for tearing down a 5+ SRS team with nothing to show for it 3 years latter.



But I don't get the praise for trading good players you didn't acquire for picks. Unless a GM is horrible they can get a ton of picks if they trade away talent.


Huh I wonder who you can be talking about
sp6r=underrated
RealGM
Posts: 20,910
And1: 13,742
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
 

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#336 » by sp6r=underrated » Wed May 21, 2025 2:13 am

Special_Puppy wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
People were really sucking off Ainge for tearing down a 5+ SRS team with nothing to show for it 3 years latter.



But I don't get the praise for trading good players you didn't acquire for picks. Unless a GM is horrible they can get a ton of picks if they trade away talent.


Huh I wonder who you can be talking about


The preamble wasn't necessary previously, sigh. I'm so angry how the lottery turned out. Crazy people are angry because they think it was a quid pro quo. I hate it because I dislike stupidity being rewarded.
Tor_Raps
RealGM
Posts: 32,278
And1: 47,014
Joined: Oct 14, 2018

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#337 » by Tor_Raps » Wed May 21, 2025 2:24 am

Utah should have retooled instead of blowing it all up. They were a better version of the Demar/Lowry Raptors who risked it all for 1 year of Kawhi.

They still got great value for their players but building 60 win teams in the West was taken for granted. Enjoy sucking for another 5 years lol.
Upperclass
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,891
And1: 2,209
Joined: Aug 09, 2005

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#338 » by Upperclass » Wed May 21, 2025 2:47 am

Ainge got GREAT returns for Mitchell and Gobert who wouldnt have gotten any better losing in the first and 2nd round year after year. The issue is.. he's an awful drafter, only trades if he's winning the trade by a wide margin and hasnt signed good players, to embrace the tank. He really needs a good co-GM to manage the other parts that hes not great at.
Dan Z
RealGM
Posts: 18,525
And1: 9,203
Joined: Feb 19, 2002
Location: Chicago
 

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#339 » by Dan Z » Wed May 21, 2025 3:15 am

Special_Puppy wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:It isn't hard to trade good players for picks years into the future. The main reason it doesn't happen often is one, getting good players like Gobert and Mitchell is hard. Two, ownership is unwilling to have a terrible team for years while you wait for the picks. Three, fans get pissed and stop buying tickets which makes even pro-tank owners reluctant. Forth it pisses off the NBA to have an unmarketable team, ala Hinkie Sixers.

The hardest part, getting good players, was done by a previous GM. Points 2-4 have little to do with Ainge. He did some nice trades but people are losing their mind.


I've been wrong about a lot on this board but I was right about the above. Total teardowns aren't the hard part of a rebuild. And acquiring picks is super easy if the previous GM acquired good players like Mitchell and Gobert.


People were really sucking off Ainge for tearing down a 5+ SRS team with nothing to show for it 3 years latter.


The Mitchell/Goberrt team had run it's course. Didn't Mitchell ask to be traded?
User avatar
Asian Celtic
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,819
And1: 7,002
Joined: Jun 10, 2016
 

Re: Danny Ainge just took the whole NBA execs to school 

Post#340 » by Asian Celtic » Wed May 21, 2025 3:36 am

Upperclass wrote:Ainge got GREAT returns for Mitchell and Gobert who wouldnt have gotten any better losing in the first and 2nd round year after year. The issue is.. he's an awful drafter, only trades if he's winning the trade by a wide margin and hasnt signed good players, to embrace the tank. He really needs a good co-GM to manage the other parts that hes not great at.


He Drafted the Celtics championship core. WRONG

Return to The General Board