Grange: Former Raptors' success a reminder of the road not taken

[sidsid]

Nothing really new here, but I'll jump right back into my priors.

Seems if you just remove Fred from that equation early like we should have done and you fix the main issues.

- Barnes chemistry solved
- OG role for the future solved
- Siakam salary...well we didn't pay him anyway after Fred left but possibly some burnt bridges before then

Strip it down (no Trent trade, just picks) and rebuild/tank a year around that and who knows where you are in 3 years after that fateful offseason.

Giving OG that role would have been stupid. He doesn't have that role in New York. Fred removed himself and we were awful.

We would have been tanking in that first year or two with the full tear down. No issues with giving him that role then. Hard to say what happens after OG either accepts his limits once the team gets better/what talent is abord. But Fred, even now on the Rockets, can't accept that he's a role player, so you never know. Maybe the same forced trade outcome with OG.

This path is a rebuild one thougg, not the treadmill retool of gassing 5 starters to get waxed in playoff/play-in games.

[tdotrep2]

there was major money and opportunity on the line for all these guys, no one was willing to concede. Also, say what you want but when your point guard has major incentive to get his even if it's not in the best interest of the team... this is an issue.

[Raps in 4]

The Raptors didn't have a Hali or a Brunson on the roster. All this shows is that Siakam and OG are excellent complimentary pieces, which we already knew.

[Duffman100]

Masai help onto people too long.
Posters are holding on to the past too long.

[TheGeneral99]

The biggest issue was the lack of depth.

Our bench ranked dead last and 2nd last in 2022 and 2023 while our starting line-up production was pretty damn good.

You need depth to do well in the regular season when guys miss time due to injuries.

Poeltl was traded for in mid-2023 and only played like 25 games with the roster so we didn't even have a real chance to assess the team for a full season. Fred obviously didn't shoot well that year either.

That being said, fit is important.

Siakam is playing next to a great shooter and playmaker in Haliburton and Turner is a great stretch big who can shoot whereas Poeltl can't shoot and Fred wasn't shooting well in 2023.

OG literally has the same role that he had here, but is playing next to a dynamic superstar guard in Brunson and another all-star in Towns.

I think what is important to note is that the East doesn't have a true MVP level top 3 player that can dominate the conference like Lebron did. Boston obviously is a great team but Tatum isn't as scary down the stretch. Cleveland is more similar to our Toronto team back in Lowry/Derozan era etc. so it's really anyone's opportunity every year.

The best players - Jokic, Shai, Curry, Lebron, Luka, Edwards, Kawhi etc. are all in the West...it's pretty crazy.

You have literally Tatum, Brunson, Haliburton, Mitchell, Cunningham, Banchero in the East vs. Jokic, Shai, Curry, Lebron, Luka, Edwards, Durant, Kawhi, AD etc. in the West...crazy!!!

[Jerry Lucas]

There was a meeting in Miami in the summer of 2022 where Barnes, Siakam, VanVleet, Anunoby and Achiuwa sat down with each other and Ujiri and general manager Bobby Webster in an effort to gauge how tenable it would be to push forward with the group, but a commitment wasn’t forthcoming. That the players all went their separate ways into the Miami night was noted.

What I want to know most of all, is why the hell was Precious there lol? Did they need him to take the meeting minutes?

Thanks for sharing. My take on it is that Grange, like a lot of posters here, can't let go of that title winning team and its players. And I don't mean that disparagingly. I get it, our teams never win anything. In fact, there are posters on here who have only ever been alive for the Raps title and not the Jays. So I do get it. But it's time to move on already. Financially it wouldn't have worked anyway. This CBA is too restrictive.

What I would want to know is, did this meeting in Miami happen before or after Brooklyn didn't go through with trading KD that summer, and started that season with him still there (the date of that being announced was August 24, 2022 IIRC).

Because everything I've heard was that the schism in the locker room becoming beyond repair was basically due to Masai deciding not to trade Scottie and salary filler for KD in the summer of 2022. The players on Siakam's side of the timeline age-wise (led by FVV not Siakam himself) wanted that trade to get made, while the players on Scottie's side of the timeline age-wise were not angling for it and obviously ended up getting their way, as Masai did not ultimately make that move.

From that moment on the (relatively) older players on the team just looked at Scottie as "could have been KD."

[Scase]

Who made the note? They ran it back and did nothing until Fred forced their hand.

Right? So they recognized an obvious issue, and then proceeded to trade for Jak and double down on this mess? Just more evidence that Masai hung onto these players longer than he should have.

Maybe we find out what actually happened during that period when Masai leaves. But a lot of the info that has leaked out is at odds with each other. It's pretty much been confirmed by Pascal and his camp that the Raptors had made their mind up on not giving Pascal his max long before they traded him. FVV came out and said Masai told him it might be better to go in different directions AS THEY WERE NEGOTIATING A CONTRACT. Like how does any of it make sense at this point?

The Siakam thing is the odd one out IMO. If they decided not to extend him he was held onto for too long, if they planned on extending him they screwed up not doing it.

As for FVV, tbh I think both can be true. Fred has always been about the money, so why not play both sides. If it doesn't work out elsewhere, he still has a fat salary here.

Either way, I'm not sure how any of this falls on anything other than the FO.

[sidsid]

OG, VV and Siakam collectively made 120M this year. All of them are either 1st or 2nd on their current team in salary.

Even if FVV took the 30M annually, it wouldn't have worked. Siakam, OG and Barnes are still getting the max, nothing changes there. So now you are in tax hell and still no bonafide top dog and no bench.

Rather than lamenting on what-could-have-been, my view is that this only reflects well on our organization. All of them were drafted/UDFA'd and developed by us (and we also tried telling anyone that would listen how good they were).

And that core was given multiple chances to succeed. Masai was begging them to show him anything so he could justify keeping them together. But they were too mediocre to commit that much money to.

The biggest issue was the lack of depth.

I know everyone gets to jump on their hobby horse with this one, but the premise of the article is that there was no keeping this band together. Whether Masai wanted to or not, tweeking around the edges wasn't solving the main dynamics of these 4 guys.

My thoughts are that OG was likely leaving regardless of what happened in the Fred offseason, likely because of decisions made way back in the Barnes offseason. Fred was looking for the bag and his same role. Siakam wanted his money, and without it chose his destination, which is more of a perplexing Masai issue in terms of that decision.

Could things have been salvaged along the way? Maybe, but then Masai decided to build around Fred with the Jak trade and that likely permanently cemented the OG departure and would have brought the Barnes issues to a head during his contract talks. And Masai still didn't want to pay Siakam so I don't know what the end game was supposed to be here.

[YogurtProducer]

What I want to know most of all, is why the hell was Precious there lol? Did they need him to take the meeting minutes?

Thanks for sharing. My take on it is that Grange, like a lot of posters here, can't let go of that title winning team and its players. And I don't mean that disparagingly. I get it, our teams never win anything. In fact, there are posters on here who have only ever been alive for the Raps title and not the Jays. So I do get it. But it's time to move on already. Financially it wouldn't have worked anyway. This CBA is too restrictive.

OG, VV and Siakam collectively made 120M this year. All of them are either 1st or 2nd on their current team in salary.

Even if FVV took the 30M annually, it wouldn't have worked. Siakam, OG and Barnes are still getting the max, nothing changes there. So now you are in tax hell and still no bonafide top dog and no bench.

Rather than lamenting on what-could-have-been, my view is that this only reflects well on our organization. All of them were drafted/UDFA'd and developed by us (and we also tried telling anyone that would listen how good they were).

Your post assumes that keeping FVV means there are no follow up moves.

Maybe you keep FVV, still do an IQ/RJ trade, and then you got FVV/IQ/RJ/Siakam/Barnes/Poeltl at which that time you could do a FVV or RJ follow up trade for more depth pieces.

[WaltFrazier]

OG, VV and Siakam collectively made 120M this year. All of them are either 1st or 2nd on their current team in salary.

Even if FVV took the 30M annually, it wouldn't have worked. Siakam, OG and Barnes are still getting the max, nothing changes there. So now you are in tax hell and still no bonafide top dog and no bench.

Rather than lamenting on what-could-have-been, my view is that this only reflects well on our organization. All of them were drafted/UDFA'd and developed by us (and we also tried telling anyone that would listen how good they were).

And that core was given multiple chances to succeed. Masai was begging them to show him anything so he could justify keeping them together. But they were too mediocre to commit that much money to.

I'd argue that by trading Norm he didn't really keep the core together. It was half measures. And Masai also did a poor job of surrounding the core with shooting and just a better bench period. And no C until Jak was acquired a year and a half too late.

Maybe all that wasn't doable but there was a window during and right after the Tampa season, to build around the core including Norm. Then if they still didn't win, then you could say they had multiple chances. They didn't have any good chances till Jak came, for half a season. Far too late

[SFour]

Raptors had FVV, OG, and Siakam during a period where they were all still playing for their next big contract...now that all 3 have secured their big paydays they are more focused on winning.

Siakam is the only one that realistically could've been re-signed.....FVV was too expensive and OG already had a foot out the door.

[Pointgod]

This is telling. We'll never know the extent to which that locker room was broken. But man, it sounds rough. Also lol at Precious being there.

There was a meeting in Miami in the summer of 2022 where Barnes, Siakam, VanVleet, Anunoby and Achiuwa sat down with each other and Ujiri and general manager Bobby Webster in an effort to gauge how tenable it would be to push forward with the group, but a commitment wasn’t forthcoming. That the players all went their separate ways into the Miami night was noted.

First sign that our front office is cooked. Lmao

[Tripod]

The biggest issue was the lack of depth.

Our bench ranked dead last and 2nd last in 2022 and 2023 while our starting line-up production was pretty damn good.

You need depth to do well in the regular season when guys miss time due to injuries.

Poeltl was traded for in mid-2023 and only played like 25 games with the roster so we didn't even have a real chance to assess the team for a full season. Fred obviously didn't shoot well that year either.

That being said, fit is important.

Siakam is playing next to a great shooter and playmaker in Haliburton and Turner is a great stretch big who can shoot whereas Poeltl can't shoot and Fred wasn't shooting well in 2023.

OG literally has the same role that he had here, but is playing next to a dynamic superstar guard in Brunson and another all-star in Towns.

I think what is important to note is that the East doesn't have a true MVP level top 3 player that can dominate the conference like Lebron did. Boston obviously is a great team but Tatum isn't as scary down the stretch. Cleveland is more similar to our Toronto team back in Lowry/Derozan era etc. so it's really anyone's opportunity every year.

The best players - Jokic, Shai, Curry, Lebron, Luka, Edwards, Kawhi etc. are all in the West...it's pretty crazy.

You have literally Tatum, Brunson, Haliburton, Mitchell, Cunningham, Banchero in the East vs. Jokic, Shai, Curry, Lebron, Luka, Edwards, Durant, Kawhi, AD etc. in the West...crazy!!!

I get your point, but you missed the best player in the East....Giannis.

[TorontoBarneys]

The roster-building back then was atrocious. Masai's head was so far up his ass back then whatever locker room issues were present were background noise to the real problem.

Neither Siakam or FVV were handled well as assets. We could have gotten much more from each of them on the market.

[ForeverTFC]

Right? So they recognized an obvious issue, and then proceeded to trade for Jak and double down on this mess? Just more evidence that Masai hung onto these players longer than he should have.

Maybe we find out what actually happened during that period when Masai leaves. But a lot of the info that has leaked out is at odds with each other. It's pretty much been confirmed by Pascal and his camp that the Raptors had made their mind up on not giving Pascal his max long before they traded him. FVV came out and said Masai told him it might be better to go in different directions AS THEY WERE NEGOTIATING A CONTRACT. Like how does any of it make sense at this point?

The Siakam thing is the odd one out IMO. If they decided not to extend him he was held onto for too long, if they planned on extending him they screwed up not doing it.

As for FVV, tbh I think both can be true. Fred has always been about the money, so why not play both sides. If it doesn't work out elsewhere, he still has a fat salary here.

Either way, I'm not sure how any of this falls on anything other than the FO.

I have a theory and it has to do with the impending sale to Rogers from Larry. But still workshopping it in my own head.

Let's just say, it's in Larry and (Masai's best interest) that the Raptors are at their peak value next year. And we know recent performance drives some portion of franchise value....

[Tha Cynic]

OG, VV and Siakam collectively made 120M this year. All of them are either 1st or 2nd on their current team in salary.

Even if FVV took the 30M annually, it wouldn't have worked. Siakam, OG and Barnes are still getting the max, nothing changes there. So now you are in tax hell and still no bonafide top dog and no bench.

Rather than lamenting on what-could-have-been, my view is that this only reflects well on our organization. All of them were drafted/UDFA'd and developed by us (and we also tried telling anyone that would listen how good they were).

And that core was given multiple chances to succeed. Masai was begging them to show him anything so he could justify keeping them together. But they were too mediocre to commit that much money to.

Exactly. Masai correctly understood that it was a very talented group and wanted to keep it together. People complained then that he held on for too long.

Eventually it became obvious that the personalities as a collective was not going to work

[Scase]

Maybe we find out what actually happened during that period when Masai leaves. But a lot of the info that has leaked out is at odds with each other. It's pretty much been confirmed by Pascal and his camp that the Raptors had made their mind up on not giving Pascal his max long before they traded him. FVV came out and said Masai told him it might be better to go in different directions AS THEY WERE NEGOTIATING A CONTRACT. Like how does any of it make sense at this point?

The Siakam thing is the odd one out IMO. If they decided not to extend him he was held onto for too long, if they planned on extending him they screwed up not doing it.

As for FVV, tbh I think both can be true. Fred has always been about the money, so why not play both sides. If it doesn't work out elsewhere, he still has a fat salary here.

Either way, I'm not sure how any of this falls on anything other than the FO.

I have a theory and it has to do with the impending sale to Rogers from Larry. But still workshopping it in my own head.

Let's just say, it's in Larry and (Masai's best interest) that the Raptors are at their peak value next year. And we know recent performance drives some portion of franchise value....

Definitely a conspiracy I can get behind, but that would be an even greater sign that he should not be steering this ship. That's essentially the equivalent to a player in a contract year balling out at the expense of the team....not that we've seen that before.

[pilkoids]

This is telling. We'll never know the extent to which that locker room was broken. But man, it sounds rough. Also lol at Precious being there.

There was a meeting in Miami in the summer of 2022 where Barnes, Siakam, VanVleet, Anunoby and Achiuwa sat down with each other and Ujiri and general manager Bobby Webster in an effort to gauge how tenable it would be to push forward with the group, but a commitment wasn’t forthcoming. That the players all went their separate ways into the Miami night was noted.

Thats the first thing that jumps out - Precious being there. In what capacity? Just hilarious.

[ForeverTFC]

The Siakam thing is the odd one out IMO. If they decided not to extend him he was held onto for too long, if they planned on extending him they screwed up not doing it.

As for FVV, tbh I think both can be true. Fred has always been about the money, so why not play both sides. If it doesn't work out elsewhere, he still has a fat salary here.

Either way, I'm not sure how any of this falls on anything other than the FO.

I have a theory and it has to do with the impending sale to Rogers from Larry. But still workshopping it in my own head.

Let's just say, it's in Larry and (Masai's best interest) that the Raptors are at their peak value next year. And we know recent performance drives some portion of franchise value....

Definitely a conspiracy I can get behind, but that would be an even greater sign that he should not be steering this ship. That's essentially the equivalent to a player in a contract year balling out at the expense of the team....not that we've seen that before.

Larry is ultimately the boss and the one that would call shots like this, not Masai. What I don't know is whether Rogers can now take the governor position from Larry with Bell out the picture or not.

One thing for certain: everyone is debating the product on the floor, but it's clear to me that the future of this team is going to play out in the board room this year. This is a quote from Windhorst from this insider article a month ago (I don't have a sub, got the quote off a blog):

"Of interest when evaluating the Raptors' short-term future is control of the franchise. Last fall, Edward Rogers, the chairman of Canadian firm Rogers Communications, executed a deal that increased the company's stake in the Raptors' parent company to 75%. Next year, he has the right to buy out current governor Larry Tannenbaum's ownership shares and have full control of the franchise. Just where the Raptors are when that transaction takes place is already a source of both intrigue around the NBA and stress within an organization missing its third straight postseason."

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/44236522/nba-intel-how-7-draft-lottery-teams-jumpstart-their-rebuilds

[Scase]

I have a theory and it has to do with the impending sale to Rogers from Larry. But still workshopping it in my own head.

Let's just say, it's in Larry and (Masai's best interest) that the Raptors are at their peak value next year. And we know recent performance drives some portion of franchise value....

Definitely a conspiracy I can get behind, but that would be an even greater sign that he should not be steering this ship. That's essentially the equivalent to a player in a contract year balling out at the expense of the team....not that we've seen that before.

Larry is ultimately the boss and the one that would call shots like this, not Masai. What I don't know is whether Rogers can now take the governor position from Larry with Bell out the picture or not.

One thing for certain: everyone is debating the product on the floor, but it's clear to me that the future of this team is going to play out in the board room this year. This is a quote from Windhorst from this insider article a month ago (I don't have a sub, got the quote off a blog):

"Of interest when evaluating the Raptors' short-term future is control of the franchise. Last fall, Edward Rogers, the chairman of Canadian firm Rogers Communications, executed a deal that increased the company's stake in the Raptors' parent company to 75%. Next year, he has the right to buy out current governor Larry Tannenbaum's ownership shares and have full control of the franchise. Just where the Raptors are when that transaction takes place is already a source of both intrigue around the NBA and stress within an organization missing its third straight postseason."

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/44236522/nba-intel-how-7-draft-lottery-teams-jumpstart-their-rebuilds

All the more reason to write off the next couple of seasons IMO. The team isn't being built for sustained winning and aiming for a chip, no matter if it's Masai, Larry, or little Ed calling the shots, it's just incredibly wealthy folks jockeying for position to gain the most.

Definitely explains this asinine BI pickup more.