PF targets

[Invictus88]

Langdon knows Zion better than every GM out there. If he’s not interested, that says it all.

That being said - no one is going hand us a young starting caliber PF. We’re going to have to get lucky in the draft or take a chance in a trade. Everything involves some level of risk.

This is a fallacy of false equivalence.

I don't think there is a way that you can look at his history and not conclude that it is highly likely the future outcome is more of the same. Add that to his contract and there's no way you can rationalize the risk of acquiring him as just 'some level' of risk that you would undertake looking elsewhere.

And there was another reply saying that Zion could have played more games this year if medical staff hadn't held him out. If medical staff is holding you out of games then isn't that most plausibly explained by him having a medical issue?

[breezypeezy]

Just because you CAN do something does NOT make it wise.

I saw another thread foolishly proposing packaging and sending off Auser with Tobias and picks. Very good example where doing nothing is superior to, change for change sakes.

[the_l_train]

I have previously described Zion as "a shortcut through a dark alley."

He gets you where you want to be in terms of talent. You can figure out the shooting/spacing around Cade/Zion and make it work.

But the health risk is *high* and despite what some people think we don't need to take on that kind of risk. It may be a little slower, but there are much safer paths that lead to the same destination.

I'm not opposed to making a move or consolidating talent. I'm opposed to this specific player because he's an exceptionally volatile asset. Even as a straight salary dump with no additional assets attached in not sure I'd do it. And the problem is the cheaper the price becomes the more worried you should be. That's a conundrum in itself.

Is Zion even a risk? Is that even the word to describe it?

Since missing an entire year in 21-22, he has averaged 43 games per year in 3 subsequent seasons.

I wouldn't even call that a risk. You're knowingly trading for a guy where missed time (and a very high amount of it) just has to be a baked in part of the equation. We've seen no indication that his tendency to miss time will change- he's still injury prone and his lack of conditioning makes it worse.

People pointing out his tendency to be out of shape aren't being "haters". They're pointing out a legitimate issue that has caused him to miss more time than he otherwise would have- an issue he doesn't appear motivated to fix.

Not a guy I want on my team at all.

With JSJ, it's hard to assess. People talk about adding guys on the same timeline as our current core, but the flip side of that is that it means adding more guys due extensions soon. Which is my I'm more open to adding players who are a bit older.

His conditioning was vastly improved last year, and just by looking at him you could tell he lost a ton of weight. His conditioning clause in his contract will affect his money if he doesn't....so repeating the same "he's not motivated to fix it" talk track is just dated and wrong.

He said multiple times publicly that he could play back to backs --- which would have bumped up his games played total a ton..., but the Pelicans were looking to protect the asset, knowing they are a **** franchise and that he's likely to be the next star to ask out of a bad situation. Their season and injury luck were awful from day 1, and holding him back to tank it out made more sense for their situation.

Sorry I used the term "hater", but everyone chiming in and hating on this insanely lopsided proposed deal is literally doing exactly what I predicted.
Instead of going in circles, let's agree to disagree on Zion, and we can all go back to talking about Jabari Smith and Lauri Markannen being our savior.

[Canadafan]

Bickerstaffs playoff rotation was Duren Reed Tobias Holland Ausar THJr Shröder Beasley and Cade. 9 deep
We will be effectively replacing Reed with Stew. That's an upgrade. THJr with Ivey. That's an upgrade. Holland was 19 and is sure to improve. That's an upgrade. I would hope Langdon does all he can to secure Shröder and Beasley.
So that leaves the aforementioned Fontecchio +Sasser combo that equals roughly $10million. If we only have $19in cap due to Cades likely all nba nod, we use $15of that to sign Beasley to his MLE-level contract. We use the 8-9mil room exception to give Shröder a home with a 3yr deal. That leaves minimum of 4mil in cap space to pair with those 2 guys for a minimum 14million PF. That gives us Portis or PJWashington type guys. Or we just bring back Sass+Font and use our leftover cap and bring back THJr and/or Reed.
We are lucky right now dudes....this is a good team and only getting better. Gonna be a fun next few years.
We have an opportunity to consolidate lots of good options at some point. All our draft picks available. Exciting timessss

[GreekAlex]

Bickerstaffs playoff rotation was Duren Reed Tobias Holland Ausar THJr Shröder Beasley and Cade. 9 deep
We will be effectively replacing Reed with Stew. That's an upgrade. THJr with Ivey. That's an upgrade. Holland was 19 and is sure to improve. That's an upgrade. I would hope Langdon does all he can to secure Shröder and Beasley.
So that leaves the aforementioned Fontecchio +Sasser combo that equals roughly $10million. If we only have $19in cap due to Cades likely all nba nod, we use $15of that to sign Beasley to his MLE-level contract. We use the 8-9mil room exception to give Shröder a home with a 3yr deal. That leaves minimum of 4mil in cap space to pair with those 2 guys for a minimum 14million PF. That gives us Portis or PJWashington type guys. Or we just bring back Sass+Font and use our leftover cap and bring back THJr and/or Reed.
We are lucky right now dudes....this is a good team and only getting better. Gonna be a fun next few years.
We have an opportunity to consolidate lots of good options at some point. All our draft picks available. Exciting timessss

Great post! I share your enthusiasm and if I were in Trajan’s shoes, I’d focus all of my efforts into turning Fontecchio and Sasser into the best complementary piece that he can by leveraging different degrees of draft capital.

Portis won’t require a FRP so conserving assets might be a smart approach since we’ll have way more information by the trade deadline.

[pistons4ever]

Only hypothetical

If you could get Anthony Davis or Zion for the Same package WHO would you prefer

[theBigLip]

Only hypothetical

If you could get Anthony Davis or Zion for the Same package WHO would you prefer

AD. With Kyrie out and Cooper Flagg coming in, seems like a good time for Dallas to do a reset and move AD.

[MotownMadness]

Only hypothetical

If you could get Anthony Davis or Zion for the Same package WHO would you prefer

Davis

[tmorgan]

Davis plays defense.

Zion hasn’t tried much on defense since he left Duke.

That said, for the likely cost, neither is good idea. Neither can stay consistently healthy.

[MotownMadness]

Whats the price to upgrade Tobias to Cam Johnson?

[Invictus88]

I have previously described Zion as "a shortcut through a dark alley."

He gets you where you want to be in terms of talent. You can figure out the shooting/spacing around Cade/Zion and make it work.

But the health risk is *high* and despite what some people think we don't need to take on that kind of risk. It may be a little slower, but there are much safer paths that lead to the same destination.

I'm not opposed to making a move or consolidating talent. I'm opposed to this specific player because he's an exceptionally volatile asset. Even as a straight salary dump with no additional assets attached in not sure I'd do it. And the problem is the cheaper the price becomes the more worried you should be. That's a conundrum in itself.

Is Zion even a risk? Is that even the word to describe it?

Since missing an entire year in 21-22, he has averaged 43 games per year in 3 subsequent seasons.

I wouldn't even call that a risk. You're knowingly trading for a guy where missed time (and a very high amount of it) just has to be a baked in part of the equation. We've seen no indication that his tendency to miss time will change- he's still injury prone and his lack of conditioning makes it worse.

People pointing out his tendency to be out of shape aren't being "haters". They're pointing out a legitimate issue that has caused him to miss more time than he otherwise would have- an issue he doesn't appear motivated to fix.

Not a guy I want on my team at all.

With JSJ, it's hard to assess. People talk about adding guys on the same timeline as our current core, but the flip side of that is that it means adding more guys due extensions soon. Which is my I'm more open to adding players who are a bit older.

His conditioning was vastly improved last year, and just by looking at him you could tell he lost a ton of weight. His conditioning clause in his contract will affect his money if he doesn't....so repeating the same "he's not motivated to fix it" talk track is just dated and wrong.

He said multiple times publicly that he could play back to backs --- which would have bumped up his games played total a ton..., but the Pelicans were looking to protect the asset, knowing they are a **** franchise and that he's likely to be the next star to ask out of a bad situation. Their season and injury luck were awful from day 1, and holding him back to tank it out made more sense for their situation.

Sorry I used the term "hater", but everyone chiming in and hating on this insanely lopsided proposed deal is literally doing exactly what I predicted.
Instead of going in circles, let's agree to disagree on Zion, and we can all go back to talking about Jabari Smith and Lauri Markannen being our savior.

Stating the Pelicans were looking to protect an oft-injured player by holding him out of games makes no sense. With his history he needed to prove to the league he could stay healthy and play basketball to increase his value. Instead they basically just tanked the guy's value further. Those two things don't add up.

His conditioning means nothing at the start of the year if he still misses 30 out of the first 36 games. He was paid 37 million last year and played 30 games total. 30.

Let's agree to disagree on this for sure.

[Crymson]

Only hypothetical

If you could get Anthony Davis or Zion for the Same package WHO would you prefer

AD, without even the slightest bit of hesitation. He isn't called day-to-day Davis for nothing, but Zion makes him look like a picture of health by comparison anyway.

He's also got a drastically greater history of NBA success.

[Crymson]

His conditioning was vastly improved last year, and just by looking at him you could tell he lost a ton of weight. His conditioning clause in his contract will affect his money if he doesn't....so repeating the same "he's not motivated to fix it" talk track is just dated and wrong.

Conditioning and physical condition are not the same. He might be better conditioned, but the injury history is already extensive and it's here to stay.

He said multiple times publicly that he could play back to backs --- which would have bumped up his games played total a ton..., but the Pelicans were looking to protect the asset, knowing they are a **** franchise and that he's likely to be the next star to ask out of a bad situation. Their season and injury luck were awful from day 1, and holding him back to tank it out made more sense for their situation.

I don't buy that Zion would have played substantively more games in his career in that scenario, and if the Pelicans' medical staff judged that the availability of this endlessly injury-prone player was best served by not having him play back-to-backs, then that's that.

In any case, did they hold him out in the postseason as well? He's missed both of the Pelicans' appearances since he was drafted.

Sorry I used the term "hater", but everyone chiming in and hating on this insanely lopsided proposed deal is literally doing exactly what I predicted.
Instead of going in circles, let's agree to disagree on Zion, and we can all go back to talking about Jabari Smith and Lauri Markannen being our savior.

I think that nobody in NBA circles would deem this an "insanely lopsided" deal unless they're naming it that in favor of the Pelicans. Zion has very modest trade value because his long absences are inevitable and likelier to get more frequent rather than less.

[Crymson]

Whats the price to upgrade Tobias to Cam Johnson?

Probably substantial. And speaking of injury prone, he's almost 30 and has missed more than 30% of his NBA games due to injury so far.

[joedumars1]

I’d love ad, but scary move. If it only cost like 2 1s sure lol

[SuperBad]

How about Tech and Sasser the Pelicans, they send Kelly O to Milwaukee on the rebuild, and we get Portis, and I assume we might have to loose a second rd pick.

[MotownMadness]

Whats the price to upgrade Tobias to Cam Johnson?

Probably substantial. And speaking of injury prone, he's almost 30 and has missed more than 30% of his NBA games due to injury so far.

Yeah looks like he’s never healthy either

[BadMofoPimp]

Bickerstaffs playoff rotation was Duren Reed Tobias Holland Ausar THJr Shröder Beasley and Cade. 9 deep
We will be effectively replacing Reed with Stew. That's an upgrade. THJr with Ivey. That's an upgrade. Holland was 19 and is sure to improve. That's an upgrade. I would hope Langdon does all he can to secure Shröder and Beasley.
So that leaves the aforementioned Fontecchio +Sasser combo that equals roughly $10million. If we only have $19in cap due to Cades likely all nba nod, we use $15of that to sign Beasley to his MLE-level contract. We use the 8-9mil room exception to give Shröder a home with a 3yr deal. That leaves minimum of 4mil in cap space to pair with those 2 guys for a minimum 14million PF. That gives us Portis or PJWashington type guys. Or we just bring back Sass+Font and use our leftover cap and bring back THJr and/or Reed.
We are lucky right now dudes....this is a good team and only getting better. Gonna be a fun next few years.
We have an opportunity to consolidate lots of good options at some point. All our draft picks available. Exciting timessss

This is exactly how I have been looking at this off-season. Congrats!

[BadMofoPimp]

Whats the price to upgrade Tobias to Cam Johnson?

Probably substantial. And speaking of injury prone, he's almost 30 and has missed more than 30% of his NBA games due to injury so far.

Has Cam even been integral to a team winning games or just getting stats on losing teams as a part time player? I like him, but Harris contributes in so many ways that don't show up on a stat sheet. He is integral to this teams mantra. Would rather have Harris and future cap space once he moves on. Would rather package future picks with Sasser/Fonteccino for him or something along that manor and have Cam as a backup at PF/SF.

[Crymson]

Whats the price to upgrade Tobias to Cam Johnson?

Probably substantial. And speaking of injury prone, he's almost 30 and has missed more than 30% of his NBA games due to injury so far.

Has Cam even been integral to a team winning games or just getting stats on losing teams as a part time player? I like him, but Harris contributes in so many ways that don't show up on a stat sheet. He is integral to this teams mantra. Would rather have Harris and future cap space once he moves on. Would rather package future picks with Sasser/Fonteccino for him or something along that manor and have Cam as a backup at PF/SF.

He's a solid starting forward. He's also a very injury-prone starting forward.

There's no space for a backup SF/PF unless Ausar, Tobias, or Holland is headed someplace else. Assuming Beasley and Schroder are back, we're looking at a full rotation already with Fontecchio and Sasser as depth.

By all accounts, it would cost at least a future 1st for anyone to acquire Johnson at this point.