2025 NBA Draft Discussion Part 8

[MEDIC]

I really like Coward. I really like Bryant.

.....but Fleming is so much longer than both of those guys, so I would have to go with Rasheer.

[RoteSchroder]

So I was a tad dismissive, but I honestly don't understand the hype with Noa given the limitations in his game and troubling frame. The scouting report on Tidjane you posted is a little disingenuous. There were a ton of ppl, including several on this board saying very similar things as they're now saying about Noa. That said, I agree that Essengue is the better prospect. He's good in the open court and I think his passing has a chance to become a positive, but I fail to see the upside that warrants a top #10 pick. In fact, I see a lot of factors working against him ever sticking in the league: poor shooter, high hips that prevent him from keeping ppl in front of him, narrow shoulders that suggest he'll have trouble putting on weight, neutral wingspan, poor shooting numbers, weak handles, spacey off-ball defence. Who does he guard in the league? Guards will blow by him and forwards will body him. I don't see the type of toughness that lets skinny forwards like Boucher or Chet stick. He reminds me of Dalano Banton with none of his pg skills and a worse shooter.

Could he grow his game and carve out a niche in the league? sure. Would I bet on it? not really. Should he be in consideration at #9? absolutely not.

For me he's late first round at best.

I'm old enough to remember watching a lot of grainy Giannis highlights back when he was in Greece. The only similarities I see with Giannis is that they're both skinny (though Giannis has broad shoulders), solid athletes in the open cart and have long legs which allow them to cover a lot of ground when in stride. But even as a teenager Giannis popped for his speed on the ball and his ability to weave through traffic.

The scouting report on Salaun was before the draft, the only part that's untrue in hindsight is that his rebounding is actually ok. Everything else still seems true to me.

Essengue does have weaknesses, more so than Giannis pre-draft. The narrow shoulders thing is a real concern, but at the same time, not a huge concern for Durant. For Gradey, it's a concern. Boucher is kind of in the middle, if his foot speed could let him play PF I think it would be less of a problem.

Ingram, Scottie also have a high hip problem (and Porzingis, Chet, Wemby)..I would say Noa's position would be a modern day PF. He can have trouble with the perimeter and in rotations, but I'm guessing some of it can be cleaned up with experience, development and polishing. He does have flashes and good moments, even in 1v1 perimeter situations. His opp FG% near the basket was ~44%, which is not bad.

With Banton, again we're talking about a 15% difference in 2P% and a much much lower FTr (0.351 vs 0.762-0.892) at the same age. Banton was at 46-49 TS%, which is horrible.

Considering Noa's a project, there definitely is a risk. Aside from the above, a couple reasons why I would predict a positive outcome as a project rather than negative:

1) His improvement rate seems to be good, on a good trajectory:
Has shown in-season improvement this past year. Looks better/different towards the end of the year as compared to the beginning.

Shooting 8-19% from 3 in 2021-2023 to mid/high-20's in 2024-2025.

Started taking b-ball seriously ~6 years ago. Only got serious playing time in higher level leagues in ~2021-2022

2) At least one stand out ability (FTr) + one stand out measurement (9'3) + on-court production

A few ppl seem to think that FTr is a good indicator for prospects, and Noa is exceptional here.

Other aspects not previously listed:
+15 net on-court rating on Ulm
53.3% on runners/floaters (89th percentile), indicating a good touch
His on-court production has pretty much translated to every league/situation he's been in for the past couple years, including his 20 PT game against the Blazers when he was 17. He does a lot of positive things and plays winning b-ball, despite the weaknesses you listed and are solely focused on. And that's as a raw 18 year old in a men's league.

Yes, there are a lot of concerns, but I do prefer prospects with standout attributes vs athletic/long guys who are just ok everywhere with no particular skill/ability that stands out. Ideally, I would polish up his weaknesses (getting it to average), then expand on his strength of off-ball pressure at the rim with 2-man game, hand-offs that lead to drives, cuts, etc.

[Yallbecrazy]

I mentioned earlier that Essengue was the one European prospect I was intrigued by as his numbers looked decent, but after the increased attention to him and looking further I don't like him very much. He's too skinny, the only skinny player I've seen be good is Durant and maybe Holmgren and I think Holmgren is overrated. Both are great shooters and Essengue is not, so why are we enamored with a guy who doesn't have elite shooting (or even okay shooting) and will probably struggle with physicality on defense and rebounding as well as driving.

[PhilBlackson]

I'll just somewhat quickly chime in on the Cedric Coward hype....

And say that I absolutely think he can be a very good 3+D player and that I do actually see that his shooting form resembles Kawhi's and I think that form is what either "tricking" people into thinking he's some massive sleeper to be a star or this is again banking on a developmental anomaly.

Kawhi's development is actually outrageous, I don't want to turn this into a personal convo about Leonard but I'll just say I think he's at least a little on the spectrum and from that has an incredible & intense focus that helped him to really lock in and develop in a way I actually can't remember another player making such a drastic improvement from where they started based purely on their skill.

Even that aside, don't forget how amazingly well Kawhi plays at his own pace, idk but I feel like that particular attribute is more innate than taught. Yes the shooting, the handles etc can all improve but most of the guys that play to their own drum always have but have just gotten better & better as their actual skill level improved. So you're not only hoping for an insane developmental curve with his ballhandling, counters, footwork, fadeaways, multiple different shooting angles, dribbles combos to get to his spots, learning to use his body (again players say Kawhi is freakishly strong for his frame) etc....there is truly an utterly insane amount of stuff Coward would need to not only add to his game but somehow "develop" a calm composure with the ball in his hands to play at his own pace that I can't remember players who didn't have suddenly get.

I mean I would be ecstatic if I were the team that drafts him and if he even became another (smaller, slower) "Glen Rice" for those old enough to remember him, was a stud but not quite amongst the actual elite of the league. But even Rice to me moved around faster, Coward looks on the slower side for a guard. But he does look all but guaranteed to be a good shooter that can defend at a high level so prob a very low chance he's a complete bust, he's just another guy I'm not sure I see the same level of upside others do.

[Raptorfan2012]

I really like Coward. I really like Bryant.

.....but Fleming is so much longer than both of those guys, so I would have to go with Rasheer.

Fleming is not a wing though; more of a forward and will probably be a Boucher replacement if we draft him.

[MEDIC]

I really like Coward. I really like Bryant.

.....but Fleming is so much longer than both of those guys, so I would have to go with Rasheer.

Fleming is not a wing though; more of a forward and will probably be a Boucher replacement if we draft him.

Yeah. Which makes him a better fit on the team.

We already have enough 2's & 3's.

I'd develop Rasheer into an athletic 4/5 who can space the floor. You may even be able to put him at the 3 to guard lengh at that position.

You draft Coward, how are you getting him minutes?

[SpezNc]

Reddits starting to turn on Bryant....I do wonder if the hype is just hype and based on highlight package rather than his actual game/skills....I think hes still young but to me hes the ultimate role player pick....I think hes a career 9-12 PPG guy with solid defense....I do agree hes prolly not worth a top 10 pick since hes prolly not going to maintain that value but a late lotto or in the teens would be better value....I think better players are on the board than to take a swing on a guy with limitations on his offensive game...

Would have to take a really rare curve as a player in the NBA to reach the level we all hope for....Because we only seen him on low usage...He could look worse if he gets more touches we have no idea...

The OP really seems to hate on Carter Bryant. Don’t get me wrong it’s totally legitimate to wish the organization goes into another direction (it’s also probable). But when the OP considers it would be crazy for the FO to include Bryant in the conversation at #9, it’s a bit too much in the negative side for me.

Overall I have seen here on realgm a more nuanced analysis on Bryant. Some likes him some less so.

But the OP is just like too much in the negative.

[SpezNc]

I really like Coward. I really like Bryant.

.....but Fleming is so much longer than both of those guys, so I would have to go with Rasheer.

My opinion is still fluid / evolving but at the moment my top 5 options at #9 are in no order Maluach, Bryant , CMB, Fleming or Coward.

[Clutch0z24]

Reddits starting to turn on Bryant....I do wonder if the hype is just hype and based on highlight package rather than his actual game/skills....I think hes still young but to me hes the ultimate role player pick....I think hes a career 9-12 PPG guy with solid defense....I do agree hes prolly not worth a top 10 pick since hes prolly not going to maintain that value but a late lotto or in the teens would be better value....I think better players are on the board than to take a swing on a guy with limitations on his offensive game...

Would have to take a really rare curve as a player in the NBA to reach the level we all hope for....Because we only seen him on low usage...He could look worse if he gets more touches we have no idea...

Reddit is way less regulated than RealGM. You can post anything on there as long as the other sheep buy in. You could also be completely right about something and they’ll downvote you into oblivion if it doesn’t follow the groupthink.

CB will need a steep development curve to find success in the NBA, but I don’t see why he can’t. I’ve said it many times, he was wrongfully buried at Zona and has ZERO desire to return because of it. He can go to the NBA next month, and is all but guaranteed to be picked in the first round. A team like us is ideal for him for a few reasons. First, we like to develop talent. Second, we have lots of competition at his position which allows him to compete against quality day in, day out. And finally, we have a young roster that fits in with him socially. I don’t know how he is personally, but I find it hard to believe that he won’t fit in with our guys. We have a young group, but a mature group.

You can really tell who was watching the games vs who is watching YouTube highlights, and pulling up stats (this isn't directed at anyone). When Reddit is asking where the hype is coming from, it's so easy to see who is watching YouTube scouting videos

The Bryant hype came up during the tourney, when he was legitimately playing impressive defense. He is a legitimately good defender, and its easy to project his role at the next level. Hes already a high end defender, and he's a good catch and shoot player. I don't see some underlying potential in him, but I see him for what he is, a defender and a shooter. I could see him coming in right now and filling in a role similar to Bruce Bowen on any team, with potential to grow into more.

Yeah i guess what the tought process is does a good catch and shoot defender role player deserve to be picked 9th in the draft when there are so many other players available .....Solid role player but do you really use a 9th pick on that? ....To me no....Unless he was looking like number 1 wing defender in the league upside one day....But i doubt thats the case...I don't think if hes picked 9th he brings back 9th pick value...

[CazOnReal]

Given that the team intends to compete next season, if it comes down to it I wonder whether they'd draft for upside or team needs?

Both? Barring them drafting this draft's equivalent of Dalton Knecht, I imagine they'll pick someone who can contribute now with some manner of upside they think will either become a star or become good enough to be in a trade for a superstar a la Kawhi

This is assuming they don't trade pick #9 but I digress

[earthtone]

I mentioned earlier that Essengue was the one European prospect I was intrigued by as his numbers looked decent, but after the increased attention to him and looking further I don't like him very much. He's too skinny, the only skinny player I've seen be good is Durant and maybe Holmgren and I think Holmgren is overrated. Both are great shooters and Essengue is not, so why are we enamored with a guy who doesn't have elite shooting (or even okay shooting) and will probably struggle with physicality on defense and rebounding as well as driving.

Writing off an 18 year old for being skinny is certainly a choice. He’s definitely narrow and doesn’t look like he’ll ever be a bulky dude, but there are a ton of good to great wing defenders who were similarly skinny at his age

[earthtone]

Essengue has a 9’3 standing reach

I’m guessing he’s our pick at 9

That’s would be a Tidjane Salaun-level blunder of a lottery pick. Ppl complain about CMB’s lack of a 3pt shot but happily ignore Essengue’s poor shooting (and horrible defense).

The pitch for Essengue is that even though he’s so young and so skinny, he’s still driving winning for his team. It’s very rare for 18 year olds to be net positives at the pro level.

Not sure why you think is defense is horrible, but Ulm is a much better team when he’s on the court, and he has great feel for rotations and being a defenisve playmaker. Also has very good stl & blk rates.

On offense he’s a very good finisher at the rim and has elite free throw rates, which is a great combo. The three and self-creation still need to come along, but for a guy to already be this productive and still have so much room for skill development is super promising.

The closer it gets to the draft, the less likely I think it is he’ll even last until #9. Size+Youth+Production is a great combo to bet on

[Indeed]

So I was a tad dismissive, but I honestly don't understand the hype with Noa given the limitations in his game and troubling frame. The scouting report on Tidjane you posted is a little disingenuous. There were a ton of ppl, including several on this board saying very similar things as they're now saying about Noa. That said, I agree that Essengue is the better prospect. He's good in the open court and I think his passing has a chance to become a positive, but I fail to see the upside that warrants a top #10 pick. In fact, I see a lot of factors working against him ever sticking in the league: poor shooter, high hips that prevent him from keeping ppl in front of him, narrow shoulders that suggest he'll have trouble putting on weight, neutral wingspan, poor shooting numbers, weak handles, spacey off-ball defence. Who does he guard in the league? Guards will blow by him and forwards will body him. I don't see the type of toughness that lets skinny forwards like Boucher or Chet stick. He reminds me of Dalano Banton with none of his pg skills and a worse shooter.

Could he grow his game and carve out a niche in the league? sure. Would I bet on it? not really. Should he be in consideration at #9? absolutely not.

For me he's late first round at best.

I'm old enough to remember watching a lot of grainy Giannis highlights back when he was in Greece. The only similarities I see with Giannis is that they're both skinny (though Giannis has broad shoulders), solid athletes in the open cart and have long legs which allow them to cover a lot of ground when in stride. But even as a teenager Giannis popped for his speed on the ball and his ability to weave through traffic.

The scouting report on Salaun was before the draft, the only part that's untrue in hindsight is that his rebounding is actually ok. Everything else still seems true to me.

Essengue does have weaknesses, more so than Giannis pre-draft. The narrow shoulders thing is a real concern, but at the same time, not a huge concern for Durant. For Gradey, it's a concern. Boucher is kind of in the middle, if his foot speed could let him play PF I think it would be less of a problem.

Ingram, Scottie also have a high hip problem (and Porzingis, Chet, Wemby)..I would say Noa's position would be a modern day PF. He can have trouble with the perimeter and in rotations, but I'm guessing some of it can be cleaned up with experience, development and polishing. He does have flashes and good moments, even in 1v1 perimeter situations. His opp FG% near the basket was ~44%, which is not bad.

With Banton, again we're talking about a 15% difference in 2P% and a much much lower FTr (0.351 vs 0.762-0.892) at the same age. Banton was at 46-49 TS%, which is horrible.

Considering Noa's a project, there definitely is a risk. Aside from the above, a couple reasons why I would predict a positive outcome as a project rather than negative:

1) His improvement rate seems to be good, on a good trajectory:
Has shown in-season improvement this past year. Looks better/different towards the end of the year as compared to the beginning.

Shooting 8-19% from 3 in 2021-2023 to mid/high-20's in 2024-2025.

Started taking b-ball seriously ~6 years ago. Only got serious playing time in higher level leagues in ~2021-2022

2) At least one stand out ability (FTr) + one stand out measurement (9'3) + on-court production

A few ppl seem to think that FTr is a good indicator for prospects, and Noa is exceptional here.

Other aspects not previously listed:
+15 net on-court rating on Ulm
53.3% on runners/floaters (89th percentile), indicating a good touch
His on-court production has pretty much translated to every league/situation he's been in for the past couple years, including his 20 PT game against the Blazers when he was 17. He does a lot of positive things and plays winning b-ball, despite the weaknesses you listed and are solely focused on. And that's as a raw 18 year old in a men's league.

Yes, there are a lot of concerns, but I do prefer prospects with standout attributes vs athletic/long guys who are just ok everywhere with no particular skill/ability that stands out. Ideally, I would polish up his weaknesses (getting it to average), then expand on his strength of off-ball pressure at the rim with 2-man game, hand-offs that lead to drives, cuts, etc.

The free throw rate isn't due to ball penetration, so I am unsure that is a good indicator if he is just a finisher.
I believe he was playing some spot C as well, which to me is a bit concern, since he doesn't even have the skill to play his natural position.

I have Bryant over him, since Bryant actually showed more and already can play his position. I might even have Demin ahead of him.

[grant101]

Essengue has a 9’3 standing reach

I’m guessing he’s our pick at 9

That’s would be a Tidjane Salaun-level blunder of a lottery pick. Ppl complain about CMB’s lack of a 3pt shot but happily ignore Essengue’s poor shooting (and horrible defense).

The pitch for Essengue is that even though he’s so young and so skinny, he’s still driving winning for his team. It’s very rare for 18 year olds to be net positives at the pro level.

Not sure why you think is defense is horrible, but Ulm is a much better team when he’s on the court, and he has great feel for rotations and being a defenisve playmaker. Also has very good stl & blk rates.

On offense he’s a very good finisher at the rim and has elite free throw rates, which is a great combo. The three and self-creation still need to come along, but for a guy to already be this productive and still have so much room for skill development is super promising.

The closer it gets to the draft, the less likely I think it is he’ll even last until #9. Size+Youth+Production is a great combo to bet on

I suppose I don’t see the defensive playmaker you’re seeing, particularly if he’s being projected as a 4. For someone who has a 9’3 standing reach and athleticism, he gets very few blocks in a league populated by guards and wings. He’s really aggressive on the ball and in passing lanes and gets a decent amount of steals because of it, but that leads to a lot of blow-bys and disadvantages for his team. I just don’t see how he holds up in the league if he’s asked to play inside, particularly on the defensive end (which will have to be the case, cause he’s not giving you much versatility on offence). I think he gets abused by NBA 4s

He was definitely a positive player for his team, and provided energy and transition offence. I think he shined in large part given the fact that he’s obviously a NBA-level athlete and plays with a decent motor (again, a lot like Salaun in this respect). But, of the rookies on the team, I actually thought Ben Saraf was the more impactful player. Noa was a role player/play finisher on the team. I also think a little too much is being made of the FTR and rim finishing given that a lot of that looks have to come off of assisted finishes and in transition (which is the majority of time he had the ball in his hand). Perhaps somebody with a synergy account can weigh in on that. In any case, he’s not SGA out there manipulating his man into fouling. More like Trayce Jackson Davis - not a bad thing, but not an indication of latent abilities either.

In the end , I think this is a case of different perspectives on what a ceiling outcome looks like for Noa and different opinions on value for draft position. I see the lottery as the place where you gamble for upside, and I just don’t see that with Noa, and instead see a lot of yellow flags that point to potential challenges in sticking. The bar to get playing time and make it as a skinny non-shooting, non playmaking 4-5 in the league is very high. I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze at #9. I hope you’re right and somebody else bites before we pick - just means more talent to choose from

[Indeed]

Reddit is way less regulated than RealGM. You can post anything on there as long as the other sheep buy in. You could also be completely right about something and they’ll downvote you into oblivion if it doesn’t follow the groupthink.

CB will need a steep development curve to find success in the NBA, but I don’t see why he can’t. I’ve said it many times, he was wrongfully buried at Zona and has ZERO desire to return because of it. He can go to the NBA next month, and is all but guaranteed to be picked in the first round. A team like us is ideal for him for a few reasons. First, we like to develop talent. Second, we have lots of competition at his position which allows him to compete against quality day in, day out. And finally, we have a young roster that fits in with him socially. I don’t know how he is personally, but I find it hard to believe that he won’t fit in with our guys. We have a young group, but a mature group.

You can really tell who was watching the games vs who is watching YouTube highlights, and pulling up stats (this isn't directed at anyone). When Reddit is asking where the hype is coming from, it's so easy to see who is watching YouTube scouting videos

The Bryant hype came up during the tourney, when he was legitimately playing impressive defense. He is a legitimately good defender, and its easy to project his role at the next level. Hes already a high end defender, and he's a good catch and shoot player. I don't see some underlying potential in him, but I see him for what he is, a defender and a shooter. I could see him coming in right now and filling in a role similar to Bruce Bowen on any team, with potential to grow into more.

Yeah i guess what the tought process is does a good catch and shoot defender role player deserve to be picked 9th in the draft when there are so many other players available .....Solid role player but do you really use a 9th pick on that? ....To me no....Unless he was looking like number 1 wing defender in the league upside one day....But i doubt thats the case...I don't think if hes picked 9th he brings back 9th pick value...

Those picking him at 9th believes his shooting would become Knueppel level. A movement shooter with good defense.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I’ve made sort of a hard pivot of late and would like us to consider Jase/Kasp/Fears (if there) and look into moving IQ. I think RJ will be more valuable as a player moving forward and I think IQ is presently being overpaid.

Not sure what deal is out there but I’d make a consolidation trade with IQ and Dick to get around 40 million and see who we can get.

There is a Jak/IQ/Dick for Sabonis/Carter deal that can be made that allows us to still draft someone like Jase and have Carter/Jase/Walter run the ‘1’ and leave the bulk of the playmaking to Sabonis, Ingram, Scottie, RJ who are all 5+ assist guys

Pretty extreme roster change that depends on Scottie going up a level defensively to make up for Sabonis but it boosts the offensive floor even more and allocates IQ’s money to an actual star player. If Scottie takes a leap were even more stacked

[Rapsfan07]

Pray for Maluach at 9

He will be at 9, no teams above wants him.
Nets already looking to trade up for Fears, meaning Pelicans is also looking for Fears, while Wizards rumours to be with Queen.
And most likely we will pass as well.

Wanna bet ?

I'm praying the Pels take him

[Tripod]

I’ve made sort of a hard pivot of late and would like us to consider Jase/Kasp/Fears (if there) and look into moving IQ. I think RJ will be more valuable as a player moving forward and I think IQ is presently being overpaid.

Not sure what deal is out there but I’d make a consolidation trade with IQ and Dick to get around 40 million and see who we can get.

There is a Jak/IQ/Dick for Sabonis/Carter deal that can be made that allows us to still draft someone like Jase and have Carter/Jase/Walter run the ‘1’ and leave the bulk of the playmaking to Sabonis, Ingram, Scottie, RJ who are all 5+ assist guys

Pretty extreme roster change that depends on Scottie going up a level defensively to make up for Sabonis but it boosts the offensive floor even more and allocates IQ’s money to an actual star player. If Scottie takes a leap were even more stacked

We wouldn't move IQ right away anyways. PG's almost always need time to adjust plus we need the depth anyways.

IQ is getting underrated I think mostly just from missing lots of games this year. He provides something we desperately need...outside shooting.

I have no issue with a consolidation but I don't think your deal makes the Raps better.

I have said I think I would draft Jase at #9(Fears gone) because he can provide 3 level scoring and POA defense. But he should be coming off the bench to play vs easier matchups and to learn the league. But we could also play minutes with him and IQ together to have more creation and shooting on the floor together.

Bigger 3+D guys like Fleming, Coward and Bryant are also fits, but Jase I think has the "ball in his hands scorer" upside that those guys don't.

[Rapsfan07]

I'll just somewhat quickly chime in on the Cedric Coward hype....

And say that I absolutely think he can be a very good 3+D player and that I do actually see that his shooting form resembles Kawhi's and I think that form is what either "tricking" people into thinking he's some massive sleeper to be a star or this is again banking on a developmental anomaly.

Kawhi's development is actually outrageous, I don't want to turn this into a personal convo about Leonard but I'll just say I think he's at least a little on the spectrum and from that has an incredible & intense focus that helped him to really lock in and develop in a way I actually can't remember another player making such a drastic improvement from where they started based purely on their skill.

Even that aside, don't forget how amazingly well Kawhi plays at his own pace, idk but I feel like that particular attribute is more innate than taught. Yes the shooting, the handles etc can all improve but most of the guys that play to their own drum always have but have just gotten better & better as their actual skill level improved. So you're not only hoping for an insane developmental curve with his ballhandling, counters, footwork, fadeaways, multiple different shooting angles, dribbles combos to get to his spots, learning to use his body (again players say Kawhi is freakishly strong for his frame) etc....there is truly an utterly insane amount of stuff Coward would need to not only add to his game but somehow "develop" a calm composure with the ball in his hands to play at his own pace that I can't remember players who didn't have suddenly get.

I mean I would be ecstatic if I were the team that drafts him and if he even became another (smaller, slower) "Glen Rice" for those old enough to remember him, was a stud but not quite amongst the actual elite of the league. But even Rice to me moved around faster, Coward looks on the slower side for a guard. But he does look all but guaranteed to be a good shooter that can defend at a high level so prob a very low chance he's a complete bust, he's just another guy I'm not sure I see the same level of upside others do.

I couldn't agree more.

Kawhi is truly a once in a lifetime kind of player and that developmental curve is absolutely an outlier. Anyone expecting or projecting that sort of development from Coward is setting themselves up for disappointment.

The good news is - we don't NEED him to be Kawhi. Of course it would be a homerun if he did but he doesn't have to for him to be the right pick. Bridges is a fantastic player and never played in an all-star game. Bane too. Murphy too and I'm sure there's others in this tier that aren't coming to mind right now.

If we think he could even get there, that's worth a Top 10 pick in any draft.

[JCP11]

That’s would be a Tidjane Salaun-level blunder of a lottery pick. Ppl complain about CMB’s lack of a 3pt shot but happily ignore Essengue’s poor shooting (and horrible defense).

The pitch for Essengue is that even though he’s so young and so skinny, he’s still driving winning for his team. It’s very rare for 18 year olds to be net positives at the pro level.

Not sure why you think is defense is horrible, but Ulm is a much better team when he’s on the court, and he has great feel for rotations and being a defenisve playmaker. Also has very good stl & blk rates.

On offense he’s a very good finisher at the rim and has elite free throw rates, which is a great combo. The three and self-creation still need to come along, but for a guy to already be this productive and still have so much room for skill development is super promising.

The closer it gets to the draft, the less likely I think it is he’ll even last until #9. Size+Youth+Production is a great combo to bet on

I suppose I don’t see the defensive playmaker you’re seeing, particularly if he’s being projected as a 4. For someone who has a 9’3 standing reach and athleticism, he gets very few blocks in a league populated by guards and wings. He’s really aggressive on the ball and in passing lanes and gets a decent amount of steals because of it, but that leads to a lot of blow-bys and disadvantages for his team. I just don’t see how he holds up in the league if he’s asked to play inside, particularly on the defensive end (which will have to be the case, cause he’s not giving you much versatility on offence). I think he gets abused by NBA 4s

He was definitely a positive player for his team, and provided energy and transition offence. I think he shined in large part given the fact that he’s obviously a NBA-level athlete and plays with a decent motor (again, a lot like Salaun in this respect). But, of the rookies on the team, I actually thought Ben Saraf was the more impactful player. Noa was a role player/play finisher on the team. I also think a little too much is being made of the FTR and rim finishing given that a lot of that looks have to come off of assisted finishes and in transition (which is the majority of time he had the ball in his hand). Perhaps somebody with a synergy account can weigh in on that. In any case, he’s not SGA out there manipulating his man into fouling. More like Trayce Jackson Davis - not a bad thing, but not an indication of latent abilities either.

In the end , I think this is a case of different perspectives on what a ceiling outcome looks like for Noa and different opinions on value for draft position. I see the lottery as the place where you gamble for upside, and I just don’t see that with Noa, and instead see a lot of yellow flags that point to potential challenges in sticking. The bar to get playing time and make it as a skinny non-shooting, non playmaking 4-5 in the league is very high. I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze at #9. I hope you’re right and somebody else bites before we pick - just means more talent to choose from

Very good analysis. I also don't see a high end player in Essengue. He gets most of his production around the rim and in transition. I don't see a lot of skills in his game, mostly effort and hard work which is a good thing but not #9 worthy. People complained about CMBs shot but want to overlook Essengue's and CMBs game and feel is much more advanced. Pass for me.