OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal

[Randle McMurphy]

He deserved better, they all did (all the guys we shafted for Scottie). But that’s the way it goes. Turns out, maybe Scottie’s not the top guy from that class or good enough to warrant moving off what we had, but that’s the risk. That’s the way she goes. I loved watching Fred, OG, Pascal hoop this post season, he’ll even GT jr. As time goes on, and you seem them lead other clubs, you realize we did have something special with that pre Scottie group. Wish they were all still here but that’s not how it works. Glad to see them still play meaningful ball. We’re down now, but they’ll been good Raps teams again in the future.


If Masai leaves, he leaves. I’m not worried.

This isn't about Barnes. It's about PAYING that group.

FVV highest paid on team: 42.8
Siakam tied for highest paid on team 42.2
OG 2nd highest paid on team 36.6
120 million for 3 guys

All got paid. That puts them all in the top 31 paid guys this year. And all get to play with players better than them.

It's OK to say it worked out great for them while also acknowledging that together as a group, it wouldn't...and didn't work. With them as the top guys, they didn't deliver. That's OK. They all would up in great individual spots while getting big money. Good for them.

As for the Masai comment....he is the one who "over rates his players in trade talks". He knew those guys the best and what they were capable of...and not capable of. That's why he looked fir that #1 option in KD, Dame, and likely others we don't know about.

You should be worried of Masai is gone. Getting someone better is very, very unlikely.

Oh, I’m sure they can find someone else they can pay 15M a year to that can deliver 30 wins a season.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The handling of Pascal Siakam by the Raptors will be one of the most consequential missteps in franchise history. Masai Ujiri ghosting him for a summer instead of negotiating an extension put them in a position where he had to be traded on an expiring deal at the deadline. Not because Siakam wouldn't have re-signed, but because they had let the relationship sour to the point where it was at least a question.

Darko Rajakovic using him like a spacing big and planting him in the corner was disgraceful and, of course, got changed once it became apparent that it was terrible strategy and Pascal Siakam was far and away the best player on the roster. Both management and the coaching staff treated him like an afterthought a year after making an All-NBA team.

At the core of all of this, though, is how management, the coaching staff, and ownership view Scottie Barnes. One by one, the core of the Raptors got pushed out in favour of creating room for Scottie Barnes to develop. Fred VanVleet was getting in the way of Scottie Barnes lead ballhandler reps, so they throw a half season away on that only to realize their best chance of winning basketball games is to run Fred x Poeltl pick and roll. Pascal Siakam was getting in the way of Scottie Barnes being the number one option. Too bad that meant Scottie Barnes was forced to create against opposing teams' best defenders. The result? His worst offensive season as a pro.

Where does that leave us? The Raptors are in search of a true lead ball handler and a number one scoring option and got lesser versions of VanVleet and Siakam in Quickley and Ingram. Has Scottie's standing with the organization changed? Of course not! He's still god's gift to basketball fans if you let MLSE and Darko tell it, but the path to stardom is even more uncertain. He's not the lead ball handler, he's not a go-to scoring option, he's an elite roaming defender and connective passer. Best case scenario, we're looking at Draymond Green who gets midpost isolation reps, and that's only because he gets special treatment as a "star".

If this team is not a top six seed next season, we need to stop with the fantasy that Scottie Barnes is a franchise player. Luckily for him, there are still many more excuses to be used. Ingram was unhealthy or underperforming, IQ is not a starting PG, Darko is a bad coach, the young players didn't develop, and more. Until this franchise starts treating Scottie Barnes like any other player and not a generational talent, we are going to be working to build and protect his reputation instead of winning games.

The treatment of Siakam is one of biggest reasons why Masai should no longer be trusted to run the team going forward.

Suspended him a game for leaving the bench early after fouling out.

Scottie does the same thing and Darko says he 'had a conversation,' which Scottie immediately tells the media was a lie and that he didn't even know what he did wrong.

[Troubadour]

The handling of Pascal Siakam by the Raptors will be one of the most consequential missteps in franchise history. Masai Ujiri ghosting him for a summer instead of negotiating an extension put them in a position where he had to be traded on an expiring deal at the deadline. Not because Siakam wouldn't have re-signed, but because they had let the relationship sour to the point where it was at least a question.

Darko Rajakovic using him like a spacing big and planting him in the corner was disgraceful and, of course, got changed once it became apparent that it was terrible strategy and Pascal Siakam was far and away the best player on the roster. Both management and the coaching staff treated him like an afterthought a year after making an All-NBA team.

At the core of all of this, though, is how management, the coaching staff, and ownership view Scottie Barnes. One by one, the core of the Raptors got pushed out in favour of creating room for Scottie Barnes to develop. Fred VanVleet was getting in the way of Scottie Barnes lead ballhandler reps, so they throw a half season away on that only to realize their best chance of winning basketball games is to run Fred x Poeltl pick and roll. Pascal Siakam was getting in the way of Scottie Barnes being the number one option. Too bad that meant Scottie Barnes was forced to create against opposing teams' best defenders. The result? His worst offensive season as a pro.

Where does that leave us? The Raptors are in search of a true lead ball handler and a number one scoring option and got lesser versions of VanVleet and Siakam in Quickley and Ingram. Has Scottie's standing with the organization changed? Of course not! He's still god's gift to basketball fans if you let MLSE and Darko tell it, but the path to stardom is even more uncertain. He's not the lead ball handler, he's not a go-to scoring option, he's an elite roaming defender and connective passer. Best case scenario, we're looking at Draymond Green who gets midpost isolation reps, and that's only because he gets special treatment as a "star".

If this team is not a top six seed next season, we need to stop with the fantasy that Scottie Barnes is a franchise player. Luckily for him, there are still many more excuses to be used. Ingram was unhealthy or underperforming, IQ is not a starting PG, Darko is a bad coach, the young players didn't develop, and more. Until this franchise starts treating Scottie Barnes like any other player and not a generational talent, we are going to be working to build and protect his reputation instead of winning games.

The treatment of Siakam is one of biggest reasons why Masai should no longer be trusted to run the team going forward.

Suspended him a game for leaving the bench early after fouling out.

Scottie does the same thing and Darko says he 'had a conversation,' which Scottie immediately tells the media was a lie and that he didn't even know what he did wrong.

One set of rules for the golden child Scottie Barnes and another set of rules for everyone else. He was anointed the face of the league before he was even the face of his own team. What has he had to earn with this franchise? It's set the culture back to the mid-2000s.

[Tripod]

He deserved better, they all did (all the guys we shafted for Scottie). But that’s the way it goes. Turns out, maybe Scottie’s not the top guy from that class or good enough to warrant moving off what we had, but that’s the risk. That’s the way she goes. I loved watching Fred, OG, Pascal hoop this post season, he’ll even GT jr. As time goes on, and you seem them lead other clubs, you realize we did have something special with that pre Scottie group. Wish they were all still here but that’s not how it works. Glad to see them still play meaningful ball. We’re down now, but they’ll been good Raps teams again in the future.


If Masai leaves, he leaves. I’m not worried.

This isn't about Barnes. It's about PAYING that group.

FVV highest paid on team: 42.8
Siakam tied for highest paid on team 42.2
OG 2nd highest paid on team 36.6
120 million for 3 guys

All got paid. That puts them all in the top 31 paid guys this year. And all get to play with players better than them.

It's OK to say it worked out great for them while also acknowledging that together as a group, it wouldn't...and didn't work. With them as the top guys, they didn't deliver. That's OK. They all would up in great individual spots while getting big money. Good for them.

As for the Masai comment....he is the one who "over rates his players in trade talks". He knew those guys the best and what they were capable of...and not capable of. That's why he looked fir that #1 option in KD, Dame, and likely others we don't know about.

You should be worried of Masai is gone. Getting someone better is very, very unlikely.

Oh, I’m sure they can find someone else they can pay 15M a year to that can deliver 30 wins a season.

Oh this again? You know better.

[ciueli]

Tankers admit they're wrong about something? Sure. That's likely to happen.

They didn't tank until this season though. They were bad in Tampa due to losing Gasol + Serge and replacing them with Aron Baynes, Khem Birch, and Precious Achiuwa plus the injuries and COVID. Then they got Scottie in the draft, made the playoffs and decided everything was fine (spoiler alert: it wasn't). Then they made a win now move for Jak which is the exact opposite of what you do when you tank and build through the draft, this past season represents the first full season they committed to the tank if it can even be called that given they didn't sell off Jakob Poeltl and now they've just traded a first round pick for Ingram. So much for tanking.

Really impossible to say the tankers are wrong because this team has never bought into a wholesale rebuild through the draft under Masai's tenure. You can argue that building around Scottie was a mistake and we should have kept Pascal instead but ultimately we spent 4+ years trying to build around Pascal and the team just kept getting worse and worse. I blame Masai for this, it was his job to put the correct pieces around Pascal and he failed, it's that simple.

[earthtone]

I’m sorry Pascal, our misguided front office should have traded you sooner than it did so we could have gotten better value and you could have done this earlier.

We turned Pascal Siakam into Brandon Ingram, Ja’Kobe Walter and Ochai Agbaji.

I have no idea how people can say with a straight face that we didn’t get good value for him

Until he proves otherwise, Ingram has negative value or close to it. Ochai is fine, and Walter looks promising, but I don’t know how much either one of them moves the needle.

Unless JKW blows up, the most favourable interpretation of the deal is that it was… fine.

Ingram has to return to All-Star status for it to be good.

Do you think Ingram is an all-star level talent if healthy?

[Jcity08]

Apologize? For what, he was used as a 1st option on this team which is a role he clearly didnt fit. He was always best used behind a true #1 like Kawhi and now Hali. He is a 2nd or 3rd option and we werent going to pay him as a 1st option.

I blame Masai for waiting so long to actually get him dealt but honestly it looked like there were personal reasons that went beyond basketball for Masai.

That mid duo of Siakam & FVV should have been dealt earlier in hindsight (don't want to look past that many of us wanted them dealt well before the date of the actual trade).

[PushDaRock]

Maybe it was Scottie holding back Siakam rather than the other way around

[Scott Hall]

We turned Pascal Siakam into Brandon Ingram, Ja’Kobe Walter and Ochai Agbaji.

I have no idea how people can say with a straight face that we didn’t get good value for him

Until he proves otherwise, Ingram has negative value or close to it. Ochai is fine, and Walter looks promising, but I don’t know how much either one of them moves the needle.

Unless JKW blows up, the most favourable interpretation of the deal is that it was… fine.

Ingram has to return to All-Star status for it to be good.

Do you think Ingram is an all-star level talent if healthy?

In the East possibly probably borderline. It will be interesting to see how he looks out of a clown show like New Orleans and he should benefit playing alongside a pass first guy like Barnes instead of a fake PG like CJ McCollum who only passes to the rim and Zion who likes Iso Ball.



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[Troubadour]

:lol: Apologize? For what, he was used as a 1st option on this team which is a role he clearly didnt fit. He was always best used behind a true #1 like Kawhi and now Hali. He is a 2nd or 3rd option and we werent going to pay him as a 1st option.

I blame Masai for waiting so long to actually get him dealt but honestly it looked like there were personal reasons that went beyond basketball for Masai.

That mid duo of Siakam & FVV should have been dealt earlier in hindsight (don't want to look past that many of us wanted them dealt well before the date of the actual trade).

Haliburton isn't a "true number one" like Kawhi. He's an elite PG who creates for others. The Pacers have an elite system and they maximize their talent. They do what people think Darko does.

Also if you score 39 points on the road in MSG in the Eastern Conference Finals, you're a max guy. I don't make the rules.

[NinjaBro]

Apologize? For what, he was used as a 1st option on this team which is a role he clearly didnt fit. He was always best used behind a true #1 like Kawhi and now Hali. He is a 2nd or 3rd option and we werent going to pay him as a 1st option.

I blame Masai for waiting so long to actually get him dealt but honestly it looked like there were personal reasons that went beyond basketball for Masai.

That mid duo of Siakam & FVV should have been dealt earlier in hindsight (don't want to look past that many of us wanted them dealt well before the date of the actual trade).

Haliburton isn't a "true number one" like Kawhi. He's an elite PG who creates for others. The Pacers have an elite system and they maximize their talent. They do what people think Darko does.

Also if you score 39 points on the road in MSG in the Eastern Conference Finals, you're a max guy. I don't make the rules.

Haliburton is great, watching him create for others and never shying away from the big moments is sublime. The complete opposite of watching years of FVV play where he's all about himself with his inefficient selfish play. Made my eyes bleed watching him. So happy he's gone.

[Pointgod]

We turned Pascal Siakam into Brandon Ingram, Ja’Kobe Walter and Ochai Agbaji.

I have no idea how people can say with a straight face that we didn’t get good value for him

Until he proves otherwise, Ingram has negative value or close to it. Ochai is fine, and Walter looks promising, but I don’t know how much either one of them moves the needle.

Unless JKW blows up, the most favourable interpretation of the deal is that it was… fine.

Ingram has to return to All-Star status for it to be good.

Do you think Ingram is an all-star level talent if healthy?

He’s made one allstar team and will be 28 when the season starts. That’s a no.

[Tha Cynic]

It’s so strange reading threads in here. It’s almost like people forget how this team did over the last few season before they decided to rebuild.

What’s even more confusing is that some of the same people who bitch about the Poeltl trade also want to bitch about the them trading Siakam. Which is it?

Anyway, I doubt there’s a single Raptor fan who doesn’t think he’s a great player. One of the best Raptors of all time. He’s in my top 4 and above Bosh.

[seanbig]

Dude was great for the first 43

Couldn’t hit anything in the clutch like usual

Still a great number 2 to kawhii

Makes you wonder about Scottie

[James_Raptors]

I'm glad he's gone and we're not paying him, same for OG (my favorite Raptor while he was on our roster) and Fred.
I wish no ill will to any of those players, but my loyalty is to the front of the jersey and it was the correct move to allow them to move on to other teams.

[WaltFrazier]

norm didn't fit the timeline
siakam didn't fit the timeline
fred didn't fit the timeline
og didn't fit the timeline

it's 2025 and they are all playing at career highs.

All playing as 2nd-4th options but 3 getting paid as 1b-2nd options.

It's OK to say we had good players but not the right mix....and didn't have the #1 option. And to get the #1 option, 1-2 of those guys had to be traded due to matching cap.

Certain people complained "Masai over rates his players" in trade talks. Well maybe he knew them best. But also knew he couldn't pay them all their money they would get.

I think last night was the most TNT talked about the Raptors since 2019. It was refreshing to hear and further cements how good the Championship team was.

The title team was great. It's odd to me how you never hear the media say, why did that team fall apart so soon. Kawhi is the obvious answer, but it still has to be one of the worst jobs of keeping a championship core going

[WaltFrazier]

Apologize? For what, he was used as a 1st option on this team which is a role he clearly didnt fit. He was always best used behind a true #1 like Kawhi and now Hali. He is a 2nd or 3rd option and we werent going to pay him as a 1st option.

I blame Masai for waiting so long to actually get him dealt but honestly it looked like there were personal reasons that went beyond basketball for Masai.

That mid duo of Siakam & FVV should have been dealt earlier in hindsight (don't want to look past that many of us wanted them dealt well before the date of the actual trade).

Haliburton isn't a "true number one" like Kawhi. He's an elite PG who creates for others. The Pacers have an elite system and they maximize their talent. They do what people think Darko does.

Also if you score 39 points on the road in MSG in the Eastern Conference Finals, you're a max guy. I don't make the rules.

Haliburton is great, watching him create for others and never shying away from the big moments is sublime. The complete opposite of watching years of FVV play where he's all about himself with his inefficient selfish play. Made my eyes bleed watching him. So happy he's gone.

To be fair Hali is working with a lot more size and physical ability than Fred.

[NinjaBro]

It’s so strange reading threads in here. It’s almost like people forget how this team did over the last few season before they decided to rebuild.

What’s even more confusing is that some of the same people who bitch about the Poeltl trade also want to bitch about the them trading Siakam. Which is it?

Anyway, I doubt there’s a single Raptor fan who doesn’t think he’s a great player. One of the best Raptors of all time. He’s in my top 4 and above Bosh.

Oh there were people here that didn't think he was good but you can discard their opinions. Remember when people called Siakam "hype beast Aminu" or whatever garbage it was. Yes that was a real thing.

[Raptaurus]

Nothing against Pascal but he was just not a true #1 and the pieces around him just didn’t fit. It happens.

We lacked shooting. We severely lacked a decent bench/depth. And we did not get a decent center before it was too late either.

Masai desperately tried to keep “his guys” together but every one of them wanted to get paid the max. The numbers just didnt add for a team with a play-in ceiling despite having quite a but of talent. Unfortunately by the time Masai finally saw the writing on the wall, the trade market had cratered for non-top 15 veterans.

[RonaldArtest]

It’s still wild seeing how much he’s developed since year 1. Kudos to him and to our development system, he’s come an extremely long way.