Grange: Former Raptors' success a reminder of the road not taken

[WaltFrazier]

Raptors 2021-22 Season players listed as guards:
Fred VanVleet
Gary Trent Jr.
Dalano Banton
Armoni Brooks
Goran Dragic
Malachi Flynn
David Johnson
Tremont Waters

Raptors 2022-23 Season players listed as guards:
Fred VanVleet
Gary Trent Jr.
Dalano Banton
Will Barton
Jeff Dowtin
Malachi Flynn

Just looking at those lists explains everything about why this team failed for years, Fred was literally the only decent guard on the entire team, Masai built a team in a guard-driven league with one quality guard.

Was there a way to solve this problem while keeping Fred + OG + Pascal + Jak as the core? Maybe, but it almost certainly would have involved trading Scottie for a guard and young players as good as Scottie are rarely traded, it's a disaster if that player blows up into a superstar, very few teams ever risk it (see the endless talk about the Clippers giving up on SGA too soon).

Make a similar list of centers and you really see the problem even more. Jak didn't come till the 2023 deadline, too late to really support the core. And norm was gone anyway. They needed another guard and a real center from Tampa on.

[sidsid]

When do you reset that team? After 2019, the bubble, once we got Scotty, that summer, before/after that 2022 meeting?

I would have never made Van Fleet a point guard and moved him on earlier. Siakam as primary didn't work, Siakam as secondary with a worse primary didn't work.

None of these guys are on value contracts. I think Fred will be the first to drop in salary followed by OG.

We should have reset right before the Poeltl trade. We were 5 games under .500 well over half way through the season. The Barnes/Siakam fit was proving to be less than ideal. Our offense relied on unsustainable principles. Within 15 months we were looking at 4 of our top 5 guys entering unrestricted free agency. FVV and OG were prime overpay targets because they fit anywhere. Way too many things were lining up against us by that point. We had a young (in theory) star who needed more time (before total salary got out of hand). We should have pulled the plug at that point. If Barnes had come out guns blazing (looking like a real #1) in ‘22/23 it may have made sense to keep things together but he didn’t and the rest of the team had too many uncertainties.

The long term plan was lining up for the Giannis offseason, and that's your most logical fork in the road to blow it up if it didn't happen. Mostly because the team did not have the asset base to properly build around a star trade past that. The Durant price tag was absurd for Phoenix and we saw how that turned out. Dame is no where near impactful enough at the age we were looking at him to give a lesser haul for either.

Giannis was the perfect efficiency play (in essence, likely the equivalent of a FVV + Ibaka trade as we'd likely lose them to FA to fit Giannis in the cap. Gasol was already pretty much cooked anyway). We could have filled out some tradeable contracts by the second year. Even using Lowry if needed to get a third guy with him and Siakam.

FA star acquisition was our reasonable path with our lack of assets and that closed after Giannis re-signed, unless they wanted to kick the can down the road to try with Jokic, who also did anyway.

[ConSarnit]

When do you reset that team? After 2019, the bubble, once we got Scotty, that summer, before/after that 2022 meeting?

I would have never made Van Fleet a point guard and moved him on earlier. Siakam as primary didn't work, Siakam as secondary with a worse primary didn't work.

None of these guys are on value contracts. I think Fred will be the first to drop in salary followed by OG.

We should have reset right before the Poeltl trade. We were 5 games under .500 well over half way through the season. The Barnes/Siakam fit was proving to be less than ideal. Our offense relied on unsustainable principles. Within 15 months we were looking at 4 of our top 5 guys entering unrestricted free agency. FVV and OG were prime overpay targets because they fit anywhere. Way too many things were lining up against us by that point. We had a young (in theory) star who needed more time (before total salary got out of hand). We should have pulled the plug at that point. If Barnes had come out guns blazing (looking like a real #1) in ‘22/23 it may have made sense to keep things together but he didn’t and the rest of the team had too many uncertainties.

The long term plan was lining up for the Giannis offseason, and that's your most logical fork in the road to blow it up if it didn't happen. Mostly because the team did not have the asset base to properly build around a star trade past that. The Durant price tag was absurd for Phoenix and we saw how that turned out. Dame is no where near impactful enough at the age we were looking at him to give a lesser haul for either.

Giannis was the perfect efficiency play (in essence, likely the equivalent of a FVV + Ibaka trade as we'd likely lose them to FA to fit Giannis in the cap. Gasol was already pretty much cooked anyway). We could have filled out some tradeable contracts by the second year. Even using Lowry if needed to get a third guy with him and Siakam.

FA star acquisition was our reasonable path with our lack of assets and that closed after Giannis re-signed, unless they wanted to kick the can down the road to try with Jokic, who also did anyway.

That also would have been a good pivot point. The Giannis dream was dead, then we had a terrible Tampa season and our best player (Lowry) was aging out.

[Pointgod]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

[canada_dry]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

That...or we simply got some depth and good pieces. We had NO bench from 2020-2023when every good iteration of this team in the we the north era had good depth...It wouldn't have made us a top tier contender like a trade for a #1 option would have, but it wouldn't have given the goons in here the ammo to say Pascal lead teams did Absolutely nothing. Masai has some fault there.

I also think that's going to be the difference between this iteration of the team with ingram and the Pascal lead teams. We seem to have a bench mob 2.0 developing...hopefully

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Pointgod]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

That...or we simply got some depth and good pieces. We had NO bench from 2020-2023when every good iteration of this team in the we the north era had good depth...It wouldn't have made us a top tier contender like a trade for a #1 option would have, but it wouldn't have given the goons in here the ammo to say Pascal lead teams did Absolutely nothing. Masai has some fault there.

I also think that's going to be the difference between this iteration of the team with ingram and the Pascal lead teams. We seem to have a bench mob 2.0 developing...hopefully

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I agree with you about the bench. I think the front office is to blame for all of this for letting these guys play with a dog **** bench for all of these years but even a semi competent bench wouldn’t change the fact that Siakam, Barnes and OG were a poor fit together (one of them had to go).

[djsunyc]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

That...or we simply got some depth and good pieces. We had NO bench from 2020-2023when every good iteration of this team in the we the north era had good depth...It wouldn't have made us a top tier contender like a trade for a #1 option would have, but it wouldn't have given the goons in here the ammo to say Pascal lead teams did Absolutely nothing. Masai has some fault there.

I also think that's going to be the difference between this iteration of the team with ingram and the Pascal lead teams. We seem to have a bench mob 2.0 developing...hopefully

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

really bad depth. part due to not having picks because of the chip. missed on all our late 2nds, whiffed on malachi and koloko blood clot. part due to covid and playing in tampa. remember we had no idea where we would play so nobody would sign the mle with us and we got left with baynes. part due to not wanting future cap (norm wanted 5 years) for a run at giannis.

alot of it just had to do with circumstance and timing. a lot of luck from 2012 till covid. then no luck other than scottie until 2024. sometimes that's just how the cookie crumbles.

[ATLTimekeeper]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

You trade OG for depth because he had the most overvalued stock and wanted to increase his role on offense without the skillset to warrant those touches. In this framework, there's still $ on the table to earn and Scottie still gets the opportunity to come up through the middle and earn the #1 spot.

The second Jake Fisher came out with the report Masai needed to be open to moving him, instead of holding meetings to see if it could work long-term and then doing nothing with further information that it probably couldn't.

[Pointgod]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

You trade OG for depth because he had the most overvalued stock and wanted to increase his role on offense without the skillset to warrant those touches. In this framework, there's still $ on the table to earn and Scottie still gets the opportunity to come up through the middle and earn the #1 spot.

The second Jake Fisher came out with the report Masai needed to be open to moving him, instead of holding meetings to see if it could work long-term and then doing nothing with further information that it probably couldn't.

I mean sure, but addressing the depth problem still leaves you with a team who’s most likely a first round exit. If you trade OG for a better player that pretty much pushes everyone down the depth chart to their natural fit #1 option, Pascal as #2, Barnes/Fred as #3’s. That’s what we needed to do if we wanted to get closer to the Knicks, Celtics and Pacers of the world.

[ATLTimekeeper]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

You trade OG for depth because he had the most overvalued stock and wanted to increase his role on offense without the skillset to warrant those touches. In this framework, there's still $ on the table to earn and Scottie still gets the opportunity to come up through the middle and earn the #1 spot.

The second Jake Fisher came out with the report Masai needed to be open to moving him, instead of holding meetings to see if it could work long-term and then doing nothing with further information that it probably couldn't.

I mean sure, but addressing the depth problem still leaves you with a team who’s most likely a first round exit. If you trade OG for a better player that pretty much pushes everyone down the depth chart to their natural fit #1 option, Pascal as #2, Barnes/Fred as #3’s. That’s what we needed to do if we wanted to get closer to the Knicks, Celtics and Pacers of the world.

I'm fine with Pascal and Fred as 1+2 and Barnes as 3 with the goal of eventually becoming a 1. OG gets traded for depth, imo. Whether that's a good bench piece or some picks, I don't know. More importantly it solves the chemistry issue right away. There's no vets v kids. Scottie knows he has to earn his flowers. We're back to the way the Raptors used to be run, when we were sometimes knocked out in the 1st, sometimes going on deeper runs, eventually allowing good drafting to and timely trades to vault us up to the top. There was nothing wrong with being hyped about Scottie coming off the ROY, though. They just sort of said everything is up for grabs and figure it out guys.

Also, the Pacers and Knicks are benefitting from our players.

[Scase]

You trade OG for depth because he had the most overvalued stock and wanted to increase his role on offense without the skillset to warrant those touches. In this framework, there's still $ on the table to earn and Scottie still gets the opportunity to come up through the middle and earn the #1 spot.

The second Jake Fisher came out with the report Masai needed to be open to moving him, instead of holding meetings to see if it could work long-term and then doing nothing with further information that it probably couldn't.

I mean sure, but addressing the depth problem still leaves you with a team who’s most likely a first round exit. If you trade OG for a better player that pretty much pushes everyone down the depth chart to their natural fit #1 option, Pascal as #2, Barnes/Fred as #3’s. That’s what we needed to do if we wanted to get closer to the Knicks, Celtics and Pacers of the world.

I'm fine with Pascal and Fred as 1+2 and Barnes as 3 with the goal of eventually becoming a 1. OG gets traded for depth, imo. Whether that's a good bench piece or some picks, I don't know. More importantly it solves the chemistry issue right away. There's no vets v kids. Scottie knows he has to earn his flowers. We're back to the way the Raptors used to be run, when we were sometimes knocked out in the 1st, sometimes going on deeper runs, eventually allowing good drafting to and timely trades to vault us up to the top. There was nothing wrong with being hyped about Scottie coming off the ROY, though. They just sort of said everything is up for grabs and figure it out guys.

Also, the Pacers and Knicks are benefitting from our players.

1st round exits with a 24 year old DD and 27 year old KL is a far cry from 2 guys turning 28 before the playoffs start. one you can grow into, the other you grow out of, hence why we should've moved on sooner.

The time frame to draft guys into that core and grow, just doesn't match up.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I mean sure, but addressing the depth problem still leaves you with a team who’s most likely a first round exit. If you trade OG for a better player that pretty much pushes everyone down the depth chart to their natural fit #1 option, Pascal as #2, Barnes/Fred as #3’s. That’s what we needed to do if we wanted to get closer to the Knicks, Celtics and Pacers of the world.

I'm fine with Pascal and Fred as 1+2 and Barnes as 3 with the goal of eventually becoming a 1. OG gets traded for depth, imo. Whether that's a good bench piece or some picks, I don't know. More importantly it solves the chemistry issue right away. There's no vets v kids. Scottie knows he has to earn his flowers. We're back to the way the Raptors used to be run, when we were sometimes knocked out in the 1st, sometimes going on deeper runs, eventually allowing good drafting to and timely trades to vault us up to the top. There was nothing wrong with being hyped about Scottie coming off the ROY, though. They just sort of said everything is up for grabs and figure it out guys.

Also, the Pacers and Knicks are benefitting from our players.

1st round exits with a 24 year old DD and 27 year old KL is a far cry from 2 guys turning 28 before the playoffs start. one you can grow into, the other you grow out of, hence why we should've moved on sooner.

The time frame to draft guys into that core and grow, just doesn't match up.

Siakam is doing quite well. Time frames aren't outcomes. anyway. Kyle was 32 when we won the chip. Scottie just came off the ROY when this happened. There was reason to believe he could be a franchise player, unlike JV or TRoss.

[Scase]

I'm fine with Pascal and Fred as 1+2 and Barnes as 3 with the goal of eventually becoming a 1. OG gets traded for depth, imo. Whether that's a good bench piece or some picks, I don't know. More importantly it solves the chemistry issue right away. There's no vets v kids. Scottie knows he has to earn his flowers. We're back to the way the Raptors used to be run, when we were sometimes knocked out in the 1st, sometimes going on deeper runs, eventually allowing good drafting to and timely trades to vault us up to the top. There was nothing wrong with being hyped about Scottie coming off the ROY, though. They just sort of said everything is up for grabs and figure it out guys.

Also, the Pacers and Knicks are benefitting from our players.

1st round exits with a 24 year old DD and 27 year old KL is a far cry from 2 guys turning 28 before the playoffs start. one you can grow into, the other you grow out of, hence why we should've moved on sooner.

The time frame to draft guys into that core and grow, just doesn't match up.

Siakam is doing quite well. Time frames aren't outcomes. anyway. Kyle was 32 when we won the chip. Scottie just came off the ROY when this happened. There was reason to believe he could be a franchise player, unlike JV or TRoss.

For sure, not arguing the Scottie bit, but Siakam needs someone a lot more assertive like Kawhi etc. Scottie even in the highest hype times never came across that way.

Also you know, that whole pesky floor spacing thing that Masai is allergic to, having a stretch 5 is a requirement for any offence with Siakam as a figurehead.

[ATLTimekeeper]

1st round exits with a 24 year old DD and 27 year old KL is a far cry from 2 guys turning 28 before the playoffs start. one you can grow into, the other you grow out of, hence why we should've moved on sooner.

The time frame to draft guys into that core and grow, just doesn't match up.

Siakam is doing quite well. Time frames aren't outcomes. anyway. Kyle was 32 when we won the chip. Scottie just came off the ROY when this happened. There was reason to believe he could be a franchise player, unlike JV or TRoss.

For sure, not arguing the Scottie bit, but Siakam needs someone a lot more assertive like Kawhi etc. Scottie even in the highest hype times never came across that way.

Also you know, that whole pesky floor spacing thing that Masai is allergic to, having a stretch 5 is a requirement for any offence with Siakam as a figurehead.

Trade OG for Myles Turner, then

[Scase]

Siakam is doing quite well. Time frames aren't outcomes. anyway. Kyle was 32 when we won the chip. Scottie just came off the ROY when this happened. There was reason to believe he could be a franchise player, unlike JV or TRoss.

For sure, not arguing the Scottie bit, but Siakam needs someone a lot more assertive like Kawhi etc. Scottie even in the highest hype times never came across that way.

Also you know, that whole pesky floor spacing thing that Masai is allergic to, having a stretch 5 is a requirement for any offence with Siakam as a figurehead.

Trade OG for Myles Turner, then

Plenty of us have been on the Turner train for years lol

[mdenny]

For those of you saying that we should have tried to make it work with Siakam, Van Vleet and OG, the only way that works is if you trade Scottie for a true #1 option that balances the roster and pushes all those guys down on the pecking order. Not sure the Scottie fanboys would be happy with that trade

You trade OG for depth because he had the most overvalued stock and wanted to increase his role on offense without the skillset to warrant those touches. In this framework, there's still $ on the table to earn and Scottie still gets the opportunity to come up through the middle and earn the #1 spot.

The second Jake Fisher came out with the report Masai needed to be open to moving him, instead of holding meetings to see if it could work long-term and then doing nothing with further information that it probably couldn't.

Cmon man. Noone ever said we could've traded OG for KD. It was Barnes that clearly had the most overvalued stock. Think of all the players we could've traded Barnes for after his first season.

Now his value isn't that much different from OG.

If there is any single aspect that could be blamed for the Raps regression.....it's the hype surrounding Barnes. This is clearly obvious. Part of the process of recovery for the former scotty cult ppl is admitting this truth.

Alot of us were never impressed by unnecessary no look passes and look back dunks while losing by 15 points.

[NinjaBro]

Watch on YouTube

Lawd have mercy

[NinjaBro]

Wrong thread

[beanbag]

Grange's mom is a road not taken

[tsherkin]

Grange's mom is a road not taken

His existence would seem to preclude that being true.