Is Siakam trade one of the most lopsided trades of recent times?

[Dan Z]

I agree. Masai doesn't see it that way though, which is a problem.

I'm torn on moving on from him though. He's one of the best drafting executives in the league, which is such a rare but important skill to have (I'd argue it's the most important skill for an executive).

We also have one of the dumbest owners in pro sports who would be hiring his replacement, and that does not instill me with any amount of confidence.

This is probably not the place to get into this but I really really don’t think basketball fans should think that ‘draft skill’ is a real thing. Or at least not that there’s anything remotely close to a special intuition that some GMs have that allows them to squint and which prospects will translate and develop and which won’t. GMs all see pretty similar things in most prospects and then just take guesses about translation and development, and those who are having nice runs like Masai are just having nice runs that will even out over time. Even if we admit that some depts/FOs are better than others (they are) the advantages gained are much smaller than the full ability to actually predict draft successes and failures.

There’s a lot to this argument and I don’t want to derail this But I’ll just say that this is how GMs and scouts talk about the draft and prospect eval, and that if you follow through the thought about what this draft ‘skill’ might entail—and you’re not assuming that most FOs are incompetent (they aren’t)—you’ll end up talking about quasi-magical abilities at some pt.

Anyway, just saying that if you’re only behind Masai because his picks have generally turned out well, I’d be comfortable backing off that some and not seeing that as irreplaceable.

Some FOs are objectively better than others at drafting and development. It's completely asinine to argue that it isn't a skill.

An inability to draft and develop talent is the main reason why cellar-dwelling franchises get stuck there for so long.

I think there is a skill to drafting, but luck plays a part of it too. For example, how well has the guy who drafted Giannis (John Hammond) done in the draft since that time? I'd have to look it up, but my guess is...hit or miss (and maybe more miss than hit).

I agree with you that not being able to draft is a reason why bad teams are stuck for so long. I look at the draft and think that it's important to do well every year, even if the team doesn't end up with a star player (or even great player...just get a good one). Every year a GM misses means the team is set back a bit.

The top picks are important to hit on, but even late ones matter. Look at Denver and how they drafted Braun late. Or Memphis with Jaylen Wells in the last draft.

[flranger]

Well if you want a worse trade, I'll give you this one

Magic
Victor Oladipo, Ersan Ilyasova, and the rights to Domantas Sabonis
4
Thunder
Serge Ibaka

Of course, Sabonis/Oladipo begat Paul George, who begat
SGA
Gallinari
and picks that became
Tre Mann
Jalen Williams
Jaime Jaquez Jr
Cam Whitmore
Dillon Jones
2025 pick #24 (for #30)
and 2026 unprotected pick

[Raps in 4]

This is probably not the place to get into this but I really really don’t think basketball fans should think that ‘draft skill’ is a real thing. Or at least not that there’s anything remotely close to a special intuition that some GMs have that allows them to squint and which prospects will translate and develop and which won’t. GMs all see pretty similar things in most prospects and then just take guesses about translation and development, and those who are having nice runs like Masai are just having nice runs that will even out over time. Even if we admit that some depts/FOs are better than others (they are) the advantages gained are much smaller than the full ability to actually predict draft successes and failures.

There’s a lot to this argument and I don’t want to derail this But I’ll just say that this is how GMs and scouts talk about the draft and prospect eval, and that if you follow through the thought about what this draft ‘skill’ might entail—and you’re not assuming that most FOs are incompetent (they aren’t)—you’ll end up talking about quasi-magical abilities at some pt.

Anyway, just saying that if you’re only behind Masai because his picks have generally turned out well, I’d be comfortable backing off that some and not seeing that as irreplaceable.

Some FOs are objectively better than others at drafting and development. It's completely asinine to argue that it isn't a skill.

An inability to draft and develop talent is the main reason why cellar-dwelling franchises get stuck there for so long.

I think there is a skill to drafting, but luck plays a part of it too. For example, how well has the guy who drafted Giannis (John Hammond) done in the draft since that time? I'd have to look it up, but my guess is...hit or miss (and maybe more miss than hit).

I agree with you that not being able to draft is a reason why bad teams are stuck for so long. I look at the draft and think that it's important to do well every year, even if the team doesn't end up with a star player (or even great player...just get a good one). Every year a GM misses means the team is set back a bit.

The top picks are important to hit on, but even late ones matter. Look at Denver and how they drafted Braun late. Or Memphis with Jaylen Wells in the last draft.

Some executives get lucky, but if someone continually hits on their picks, it isn't luck. Let's look at Masai's draft record in Toronto:

#9: Poeltl. Good rotation player
#27: Siakam. All-Star/All-NBA player
Undrafted: Fred VanVleet. All-Star
#43: Norm Powell. Good rotation player
#23: OG. Good rotation player
#4: Scottie Barnes: RotY/All-Star

If someone is consistently hitting on picks, especially late picks, they have developed a process for predicting NBA success.

[ItsDanger]

Raps didn't maximize his trade value. When you wait until last minute while the player is influencing his destination, don't expect great return unless the other GM is an idiot.

Should have got Walker at least, he's not even in rotation in 2nd year. Good trade asset if you didn't want him. Instead, the path to quick retool was already in progress. I don't think they would've traded Nembhard.

[meekrab]

I mean the SGA trade still has what 3 draft picks that OKC has yet to make in addition to an MVP, Jalen Williams and Jaime Jaquez Jr?

Meanwhile PG got paid like a million bucks a game to sit out for the Clips.

[Pointgod]

Let’s compare Siakam to other recent trades:

Mikal Bridges:

New York agreed in principle to acquire Mikal Bridges from Brooklyn for Bojan Bogdanovic, five first-round draft picks, a first-round pick swap and a second-round selection, sources told ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski on Tuesday.

Rudy Gobert:

The Timberwolves will send Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Jarred Vanderbilt, Leandro Bolmaro, No. 22 pick Walker Kessler and four first-round picks to the Jazz, sources said. Utah will acquire unprotected picks in 2023, 2025 and 2027 and a top-five-protected pick in 2029

Both Dejounte Murray trades:

The Pelicans are sending two first-round picks -- a 2025 selection via the Los Angeles Lakers and a 2027 selection (least favorable from either the Milwaukee Bucks or New Orleans' own) -- to the Hawks for the 27-year-old Murray, sources said. Forwards Larry Nance Jr. and E.J. Liddell and guard Dyson Daniels are also going from New Orleans to Atlanta in the deal.

Hawks receive: Dejounte Murray, Jock Landale

Spurs receive: Danilo Gallinari, 2023 first-round pick (via Charlotte from New York, protected), 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick

D’Aaron Fox

Spurs receive: De'Aaron Fox, Jordan McLaughlin

Kings receive: Zach LaVine, Sidy Cissoko, 2025 CHO first-round pick (protected 1-14), 2027 SAS unprotected first-round pick, 2031 MIN unprotected first-round pick, Three second-round picks (2025 CHI, 2028 DEN, 2028 own)

I’d honestly take any of those trade packages over what we got for Pascal. I’d say the only players on that list that are as good as Pascal is Gobert and you could maybe make an argument for Fox from a numbers perspective but not impact perspective. We absolutely got hosed on the trade. We already knew OKC’s pick would be near the end of the draft and Pacers were already a playoff team so their picks in the short term would suck. Pacers pulled off some nasty work, but nowhere near the most lopsided of all time

[Troubadour]

It's complete cope from Raptors fans that it's actually a Pascal for Ingram trade. The Raptors got lucky that Ingram had a five-month ankle sprain that tanked his value and there's still no sign that he is capable of leading a winning team.

I was surprised that the Raptors traded for Ingram, but I know they did it because they got him at a "discount" (trade wise..not his contract).

I can't help but wonder what the Raptors long term plans are. They have a group of talented players that don't seem to fit well together. Maybe next season is the year that it works out?

The best this team has looked in the last three years was the two-week stretch after the OG trade but before the Pascal trade. Scottie Barnes was insulated from having to create his own shot or be a lead ball handler. If Ingram can recreate that without dominating the ball, it could be an improvement. I'm not holding my breath.

[vado]

A lot of revisionist history going on. Siakam was seen as an aging overrated all star on an expiring deal seeking a max contract. He was also refusing to commit to signing extensions with teams limiting the trade options.

The real mistake was not blowing up the team earlier and trading for Thaddeus Young.

[canada_dry]

Would you trade siakam for ingram, ochai , and walter?

Because that's essentially what siakam became for the Raptors.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Tripod]

Let’s compare Siakam to other recent trades:

Mikal Bridges:

New York agreed in principle to acquire Mikal Bridges from Brooklyn for Bojan Bogdanovic, five first-round draft picks, a first-round pick swap and a second-round selection, sources told ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski on Tuesday.

Rudy Gobert:

The Timberwolves will send Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Jarred Vanderbilt, Leandro Bolmaro, No. 22 pick Walker Kessler and four first-round picks to the Jazz, sources said. Utah will acquire unprotected picks in 2023, 2025 and 2027 and a top-five-protected pick in 2029

Both Dejounte Murray trades:

The Pelicans are sending two first-round picks -- a 2025 selection via the Los Angeles Lakers and a 2027 selection (least favorable from either the Milwaukee Bucks or New Orleans' own) -- to the Hawks for the 27-year-old Murray, sources said. Forwards Larry Nance Jr. and E.J. Liddell and guard Dyson Daniels are also going from New Orleans to Atlanta in the deal.

Hawks receive: Dejounte Murray, Jock Landale

Spurs receive: Danilo Gallinari, 2023 first-round pick (via Charlotte from New York, protected), 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick

D’Aaron Fox

Spurs receive: De'Aaron Fox, Jordan McLaughlin

Kings receive: Zach LaVine, Sidy Cissoko, 2025 CHO first-round pick (protected 1-14), 2027 SAS unprotected first-round pick, 2031 MIN unprotected first-round pick, Three second-round picks (2025 CHI, 2028 DEN, 2028 own)

I’d honestly take any of those trade packages over what we got for Pascal. I’d say the only players on that list that are as good as Pascal is Gobert and you could maybe make an argument for Fox from a numbers perspective but not impact perspective. We absolutely got hosed on the trade. We already knew OKC’s pick would be near the end of the draft and Pacers were already a playoff team so their picks in the short term would suck. Pacers pulled off some nasty work, but nowhere near the most lopsided of all time

How many of those players were expirings? None. Go find UFA'S

[Raps in 4]

Let’s compare Siakam to other recent trades:

Mikal Bridges:

New York agreed in principle to acquire Mikal Bridges from Brooklyn for Bojan Bogdanovic, five first-round draft picks, a first-round pick swap and a second-round selection, sources told ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski on Tuesday.

Rudy Gobert:

The Timberwolves will send Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Jarred Vanderbilt, Leandro Bolmaro, No. 22 pick Walker Kessler and four first-round picks to the Jazz, sources said. Utah will acquire unprotected picks in 2023, 2025 and 2027 and a top-five-protected pick in 2029

Both Dejounte Murray trades:

The Pelicans are sending two first-round picks -- a 2025 selection via the Los Angeles Lakers and a 2027 selection (least favorable from either the Milwaukee Bucks or New Orleans' own) -- to the Hawks for the 27-year-old Murray, sources said. Forwards Larry Nance Jr. and E.J. Liddell and guard Dyson Daniels are also going from New Orleans to Atlanta in the deal.

Hawks receive: Dejounte Murray, Jock Landale

Spurs receive: Danilo Gallinari, 2023 first-round pick (via Charlotte from New York, protected), 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick

D’Aaron Fox

Spurs receive: De'Aaron Fox, Jordan McLaughlin

Kings receive: Zach LaVine, Sidy Cissoko, 2025 CHO first-round pick (protected 1-14), 2027 SAS unprotected first-round pick, 2031 MIN unprotected first-round pick, Three second-round picks (2025 CHI, 2028 DEN, 2028 own)

I’d honestly take any of those trade packages over what we got for Pascal. I’d say the only players on that list that are as good as Pascal is Gobert and you could maybe make an argument for Fox from a numbers perspective but not impact perspective. We absolutely got hosed on the trade. We already knew OKC’s pick would be near the end of the draft and Pacers were already a playoff team so their picks in the short term would suck. Pacers pulled off some nasty work, but nowhere near the most lopsided of all time

This is beyond silly. None of those players were expiring.

If your argument is that we waited too long to trade him, you'd be right. But as an expiring contract, we got back about as good a return as you can expect.

[TravisScott55]

You can tell which fans are simpletons

[Upperclass]

Ingram makes the Raps one of the best teams in the east next season. Trade was fine but AWFUL for the Pels.

[Saul Goodman]

I have it still have it as firmly mediocre. Masai not pulling the plug in Siakam and OG and getting Poetl in 2023 was complete GM malpractice.

They probably could have gotten 3-4 future 1sts for each player at the time.

Now he has since done well to mitigate it getting Walter Ochai and Ingram, but it remains to be seen.

[sashaturiaf]

Raptors should have traded Barnes for KD and ran it back with Siakam, KD and OG Anunoby with Lowry and ring chasers. That team would be tough.

Very dumb move by Raptors

[Johnny Bball]

The Pacers traded for the right to pay Siakam an average of 47 million a year and people think its lopsided. In 5 pages its not even mentioned. This place is just bad sometimes.

[sp6r=underrated]

Recency bias is insane. Just 4 months ago, there were several 500+ page threads about a certain very lopsided trade, now they all forgot about it.

That trade was still horrific and anyone who thinks the lottery justifies the trade is a fool.

[Los_29]

That’s a standard return for a guy like Pascal. These trades always involve 2-3 picks and cap filler.

It’s actually quite a good return when you look at it now.

Walter, Ochai, Ingram for Pascal.

[RoteSchroder]

Isn’t Siakam being paid 40+ M to be about equal in value to the 11-20 M dollar players on his team.

[Appostis]

This is trolling right?

They got a talented player but one who was going to demand a huge pay day the next season.. did the Pacers win the deal? Yup..most loopsided in history? Go home OP..you're drunk.