OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal

[mdenny]

It's obviously with the benefit of hindsight....but Ingram is the EXACT player needed for the core of pascal/fred/og/poetl.

And we had a chance to turn Barnes into an elite iso scorer like Ingram. But again....it's easy to look back and should've could've would've.

But I sincerely believe if you had added a guy like Ingram to that core it would have thrived. As it was....Barnes was not the type of player that would compliment the core and it wasn't working.

They needed a ball handling iso scorer and it would've been OK if he wasn't a great defender. He didn't need to be a jack of all trades like Barnes. He just needed to score in isolation at a good rate.

[Raps in 4]

It's obviously with the benefit of hindsight....but Ingram is the EXACT player needed for the core of pascal/fred/og/poetl.

And we had a chance to turn Barnes into an elite iso scorer like Ingram. But again....it's easy to look back and should've could've would've.

But I sincerely believe if you had added a guy like Ingram to that core it would have thrived. As it was....Barnes was not the type of player that would compliment the core and it wasn't working.

They needed a ball handling iso scorer and it would've been OK if he wasn't a great defender. He didn't need to be a jack of all trades like Barnes. He just needed to score in isolation at a good rate.

Ingram isn't an elite iso scorer.

[mdenny]

It's obviously with the benefit of hindsight....but Ingram is the EXACT player needed for the core of pascal/fred/og/poetl.

And we had a chance to turn Barnes into an elite iso scorer like Ingram. But again....it's easy to look back and should've could've would've.

But I sincerely believe if you had added a guy like Ingram to that core it would have thrived. As it was....Barnes was not the type of player that would compliment the core and it wasn't working.

They needed a ball handling iso scorer and it would've been OK if he wasn't a great defender. He didn't need to be a jack of all trades like Barnes. He just needed to score in isolation at a good rate.

Ingram isn't an elite iso scorer.

Sure he is. That's like his greatest strength.

[Raps in 4]

It's obviously with the benefit of hindsight....but Ingram is the EXACT player needed for the core of pascal/fred/og/poetl.

And we had a chance to turn Barnes into an elite iso scorer like Ingram. But again....it's easy to look back and should've could've would've.

But I sincerely believe if you had added a guy like Ingram to that core it would have thrived. As it was....Barnes was not the type of player that would compliment the core and it wasn't working.

They needed a ball handling iso scorer and it would've been OK if he wasn't a great defender. He didn't need to be a jack of all trades like Barnes. He just needed to score in isolation at a good rate.

Ingram isn't an elite iso scorer.

Sure he is. That's like his greatest strength.

That doesn't make him elite at it. Iso scoring on 56-58% TS isn't elite.

[mdenny]

Ingram isn't an elite iso scorer.

Sure he is. That's like his greatest strength.

That doesn't make him elite at it. Iso scoring on 56-58% TS isn't elite.

You can't simply put iso players in order of TS% to rank them as iso scorers. This is more efficiency stats gone wild. There are too many variables in context to do that.

Brandon Ingram, when healthy, is one of the best iso scorers in the league. The list as determined by TS% does ot reflect who's the best. You can't moneyball this. TS doesn't account for player role, context and variables hidden in what is roughly categorized as "attempts". Not all attempts are created equal.

For example....Austin reeves TS for iso scoring is inflated because he is constantly attempting them against the opposition's worst defender.

Or another example: Luke kennard currently has the highest career 3p% among active players. Does that make him the best? Luke has a higher % than steph because steph doesn't get wide open attempts. But steph is clearly better. The percentages don't correct for variables in attempts. Steph is clearly the best 3p shooter of all time....yet he's not even in the top 10 for %. His brother has a higher career 3p% than he does.


Baseball stats are the most reliable stats in all of sports because there are WAY less variables in the things that are counted.

[CPT]

It's obviously with the benefit of hindsight....but Ingram is the EXACT player needed for the core of pascal/fred/og/poetl.

And we had a chance to turn Barnes into an elite iso scorer like Ingram. But again....it's easy to look back and should've could've would've.

But I sincerely believe if you had added a guy like Ingram to that core it would have thrived. As it was....Barnes was not the type of player that would compliment the core and it wasn't working.

They needed a ball handling iso scorer and it would've been OK if he wasn't a great defender. He didn't need to be a jack of all trades like Barnes. He just needed to score in isolation at a good rate.

I mean, if we want to go down that road, we probably could have turned Barnes into the version of Brandon Ingram that is actually good in Kevin Durant.

[DelAbbot]

norm didn't fit the timeline
siakam didn't fit the timeline
fred didn't fit the timeline
og didn't fit the timeline

it's 2025 and they are all playing at career highs.

i swear if we kept norm and traded away FVV, this core would still be around with good team chemistry and we would be in the playoffs

[Scase]

Pascal > Ingram.

We don't have any number one options on our team. This year is going to likely be a mess

As a player? Absolutely. As a shot creator? No.

Ingram is a much better fit with Scottie, both basketball and timeline-wise

How, they are essentially the same player, except old Siakam actually played defence and BI is marginally better at 3.

And if anything, the composition of the team makes it look like Siakam may never actually have been that bad of a 3 point shooter. So I fail to see how having a younger, worse, and more injured version of Siakam, that didn't work before, will work much better now.

The team still has the same deficiencies.

[Los_29]

Pascal is in a great role. I thought he needed to be on a team with a true 1st option. But he didn’t even need that. He just needed a well balanced team. He’s never looked better. Happy for him.

Series isn’t over. They still need to take care of business at home. But they have certainly looked like the better team. Thibs was scrambling while Carlisle comfortably played his bench.

[Los_29]

pacers up 8 with 3 mins to go

siakam iso - miss
siakam layup - on a fastbreak throw ahead pass by haliburton
siakam iso - miss
siakam iso - miss

indy only up 1.

pacers won so none of that is remembered. if they lost, his 39 point game would be remembered for him choking down the stretch.

lol no it wouldn’t.

[Madvillainy2004]

pacers up 8 with 3 mins to go

siakam iso - miss
siakam layup - on a fastbreak throw ahead pass by haliburton
siakam iso - miss
siakam iso - miss

indy only up 1.

pacers won so none of that is remembered. if they lost, his 39 point game would be remembered for him choking down the stretch.

lol no it wouldn’t.

This Siakam is not clutch from raps fans is hilarious I saw him score the biggest bucket in franchise history on potentially the best defensive player in this era lmao

[Madvillainy2004]

Pascal is in a great role. I thought he needed to be on a team with a true 1st option. But he didn’t even need that. He just needed a well balanced team. He’s never looked better. Happy for him.

Series isn’t over. They still need to take care of business at home. But they have certainly looked like the better team. Thibs was scrambling while Carlisle comfortably played his bench.

Honestly one of the bigger sins of the post 2021 group was never giving them a proper bench. Nurse overplaying everyone was a problem but holy how you gonna win with Malachi, Thad and Achuiwa lmao

[raptoradical]

Always appreciate you Pskillz!

[Mikistan]

pacers up 8 with 3 mins to go

siakam iso - miss
siakam layup - on a fastbreak throw ahead pass by haliburton
siakam iso - miss
siakam iso - miss

indy only up 1.

pacers won so none of that is remembered. if they lost, his 39 point game would be remembered for him choking down the stretch.

lol no it wouldn’t.

This Siakam is not clutch from raps fans is hilarious I saw him score the biggest bucket in franchise history on potentially the best defensive player in this era lmao

i dont see a siakam in this?

[Tacoma]

As a player? Absolutely. As a shot creator? No.

Ingram is a much better fit with Scottie, both basketball and timeline-wise

How, they are essentially the same player, except old Siakam actually played defence and BI is marginally better at 3.

And if anything, the composition of the team makes it look like Siakam may never actually have been that bad of a 3 point shooter. So I fail to see how having a younger, worse, and more injured version of Siakam, that didn't work before, will work much better now.

The team still has the same deficiencies.

Both BI and PS were drafted in 2016. In 9 seasons, BI avg 19/5/5 on 47% FG & 36% 3PT and PS avg 18/7/4 on 50% FG & 34% 3PT. BI takes more 3's but only marginally more effective at making them (36% vs. 34%) over their careers. The biggest different since draft day has been in games played where PS has played a whopping 134 more games highlighting serious concerns of BI's health.

I agree BI is a better fit for Scottie but neither BI nor PS are first options, so we have the same problem as before. If PS/FVV/OG with SB were not good enough to contend, then I don't see BI/RJ/IQ with SB as being much better taking into account both group's offense & defense.

In this light, it seems we've largely just rearranged the deck chairs of a ship that Udoka once said was a "mid-level" team with a "5-seed ceiling." We're slightly younger but about equal in terms of # of seasons played such that we shouldn't expect any one of them to have a breakout season.

Overall, short of finding a true #1 option like Kawhi, I did not see a path to becoming a championship contender with PS et al, and that view is the same with BI et al, or maybe even less so if BI is always injured as has been his usual.

[Scase]

Ingram is a much better fit with Scottie, both basketball and timeline-wise

How, they are essentially the same player, except old Siakam actually played defence and BI is marginally better at 3.

And if anything, the composition of the team makes it look like Siakam may never actually have been that bad of a 3 point shooter. So I fail to see how having a younger, worse, and more injured version of Siakam, that didn't work before, will work much better now.

The team still has the same deficiencies.

Both BI and PS were drafted in 2016. In 9 seasons, BI avg 19/5/5 on 47% FG & 36% 3PT and PS avg 18/7/4 on 50% FG & 34% 3PT. BI takes more 3's but only marginally more effective at making them (36% vs. 34%) over their careers. The biggest different since draft day has been in games played where PS has played a whopping 134 more games highlighting serious concerns of BI's health.

I agree BI is a better fit for Scottie but neither BI nor PS are first options, so we have the same problem as before. If PS/FVV/OG with SB were not good enough to contend, then I don't see BI/RJ/IQ with SB as being much better taking into account both group's offense & defense.

In this light, it seems we've largely just rearranged the deck chairs of a ship that Udoka once said was a "mid-level" team with a "5-seed ceiling." We're slightly younger but about equal in terms of # of seasons played such that we shouldn't expect any one of them to have a breakout season.

Overall, short of finding a true #1 option like Kawhi, I did not see a path to becoming a championship contender with PS et al, and that view is the same with BI et al, or maybe even less so if BI is always injured as has been his usual.

Exactly why I've been so against the signing, it's just repeating history and expecting different results. Except now we have worse defenders, and worse 3pt shooting, with an even less (read: none) stretch 5.

This is going to result in the same level of success as those other teams did, flirt with 1st round appearances, and maybe a 2nd here and there, but with no true path to contention since our contract situation is a mess. A(nother) capped out low ceiling team without a real number 1. This is why I am ready to move on from Masai, not cause he's bad, but because he hasn't learned from his mistakes.

[ishoy123]

Ingram is a much better fit with Scottie, both basketball and timeline-wise

How, they are essentially the same player, except old Siakam actually played defence and BI is marginally better at 3.

And if anything, the composition of the team makes it look like Siakam may never actually have been that bad of a 3 point shooter. So I fail to see how having a younger, worse, and more injured version of Siakam, that didn't work before, will work much better now.

The team still has the same deficiencies.

Both BI and PS were drafted in 2016. In 9 seasons, BI avg 19/5/5 on 47% FG & 36% 3PT and PS avg 18/7/4 on 50% FG & 34% 3PT. BI takes more 3's but only marginally more effective at making them (36% vs. 34%) over their careers. The biggest different since draft day has been in games played where PS has played a whopping 134 more games highlighting serious concerns of BI's health.

I agree BI is a better fit for Scottie but neither BI nor PS are first options, so we have the same problem as before. If PS/FVV/OG with SB were not good enough to contend, then I don't see BI/RJ/IQ with SB as being much better taking into account both group's offense & defense.

In this light, it seems we've largely just rearranged the deck chairs of a ship that Udoka once said was a "mid-level" team with a "5-seed ceiling." We're slightly younger but about equal in terms of # of seasons played such that we shouldn't expect any one of them to have a breakout season.

Overall, short of finding a true #1 option like Kawhi, I did not see a path to becoming a championship contender with PS et al, and that view is the same with BI et al, or maybe even less so if BI is always injured as has been his usual.

You never know what is the actual ceiling of a good team. There was not a single analyst or pundit who put Indiana as a potential finals contender with Haliburton and Siakam as a core.

[raptoradical]

lol no it wouldn’t.

This Siakam is not clutch from raps fans is hilarious I saw him score the biggest bucket in franchise history on potentially the best defensive player in this era lmao

i dont see a siakam in this?

And you don’t see this without Siakam.

[ForeverTFC]

Ingram is a much better fit with Scottie, both basketball and timeline-wise

How, they are essentially the same player, except old Siakam actually played defence and BI is marginally better at 3.

And if anything, the composition of the team makes it look like Siakam may never actually have been that bad of a 3 point shooter. So I fail to see how having a younger, worse, and more injured version of Siakam, that didn't work before, will work much better now.

The team still has the same deficiencies.

Both BI and PS were drafted in 2016. In 9 seasons, BI avg 19/5/5 on 47% FG & 36% 3PT and PS avg 18/7/4 on 50% FG & 34% 3PT. BI takes more 3's but only marginally more effective at making them (36% vs. 34%) over their careers. The biggest different since draft day has been in games played where PS has played a whopping 134 more games highlighting serious concerns of BI's health.

I agree BI is a better fit for Scottie but neither BI nor PS are first options, so we have the same problem as before. If PS/FVV/OG with SB were not good enough to contend, then I don't see BI/RJ/IQ with SB as being much better taking into account both group's offense & defense.

In this light, it seems we've largely just rearranged the deck chairs of a ship that Udoka once said was a "mid-level" team with a "5-seed ceiling." We're slightly younger but about equal in terms of # of seasons played such that we shouldn't expect any one of them to have a breakout season.

Overall, short of finding a true #1 option like Kawhi, I did not see a path to becoming a championship contender with PS et al, and that view is the same with BI et al, or maybe even less so if BI is always injured as has been his usual.

Look at their shot chart and assist rates. Ingram gets a lot more of his own shots.

Again, Pascal is the better player. But Ingram is the better first option and roughly 20% cheaper.

[duppyy]

This Siakam is not clutch from raps fans is hilarious I saw him score the biggest bucket in franchise history on potentially the best defensive player in this era lmao

i dont see a siakam in this?

And you don’t see this without Siakam.

You are right, if he went for 5-11 instead of 4-11 that game we wouldn’t have seen that beautiful game winner.