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2025 Draft Thread - Part 2

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1341 » by doclinkin » Sun May 25, 2025 10:46 pm

Dat2U wrote:
NatP4 wrote:That CMB+Sarr front court could be so dynamic. Perfect fit. Still think CMB turns out to be the 3rd or 4th best player in the class.

Always played next to a floor spacing 5 at South Carolina, never had to take 3s. The shooting upside is there, but his fit as a small ball C/low post defender next to a floor spacing Sarr would be elite.


Where? Show me. None of the indicators look particularly good. I guess your excited about 70% from the FT line? The form its self looks stiff and needs to be completely reworked. I saw he made a total of 14 jumpers on the year - which includes mid-range looks. This is not "shooting upside". This is slightly better than "starting from scratch".

I think adding non-shooters to a team of poor shooters is how you stunt offensive development of your young core and make it harder for everyone else to score. I just don't view CMB as this game-changing, all-NBA potential defender or a Draymond Green-like point forward capable of running offensive sets, making high level reads and hitting open 3s. Drafting the next Jarred Vanderbilt chasing the ghost of Draymond's upside is just waste of resources and a valuable pick.


Here's my impassioned defense of CMB then I will leave it alone. I think. Tl;dr: CMB smartens our team at both ends, and is an ideal fit next to what we are trying to develop. Toughness, smarts, improved defense, better offense.

Spoiler:
I expect CMB falls -- and if so I see him as too good to pass up. I disagree with the Jared Vanderbilt slight. His stats don't compare to Vanderbilt's Kentucky stats. His freshman and sophomore years are a doppelganger of Draymond's sophomore and junior years. Except while Dray was an outlier passer, CMB is a far more efficient scorer on much higher usage, and fouled less than Dray.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/collin-murray-boyles-1.html
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/draymond-green-1.html

I don't see the scoring as 'small conference big bully'. He scored even though everyone knew he was his team's sole option. Thus he got to the line at a remarkable rate. This, even though he was often playing center as a 6'7" fireplug. Yes he can't go right, yes he has no jump shot, didn't matter. He scored anyway. Or got to the line. Or made the smart pass when stopped. Or all of the above like in the 1st game against the big front line of eventual NCAA champs Florida. (FG 6-9, 1-1 from 3, 8 assists, 5 boards, 3 blocks in a 1pt loss).

He scored efficiently not because he's bigger and stronger than anyone else. He scored because of an understanding of the angles and opportunities that is seconds ahead of the everyone else. The player he reminds me of in this respect is James Harden. I recall wondering how in hades Harden was able to score so efficiently despite not being quicker or more athletic than anyone on either team. He had a pot belly and that plumber's strength, but didn't really have all the moves he later developed. He was just smarter than his defenders. Knew what to do when.

This to me is a thing I saw in Dray in college, when he popped up on my stat searches. He too was just smarter than everybody. Didn't matter that he had no real position on court, you could see he just read the game better. Now I don't expect CMB to be Dray in the NBA, I'm saying I liked Dray's stats back then, how he played, and would argue for him today if he were in this draft. Even as a soph and jr, despite his meh 3pt % and sub 70% FT shooting, you could see he knew the game inside out. Likewise I think CMB is too savvy to fail. He has a skill set that will translate in ways that commute to wins. A plus minus champion. That's a guy I want on this team.

For that reason I'm 100% in disagreement that CMB stunts team development. To my reckoning, he's a near ideal fit here. Ok sure he'd be better if he could reliably hit a jumper from the FT line and out. Yes we need shooters. Ok he doesn't project as a great one. I think he will work at it, as Dray did, to the point where he will hit an open shot often enough to make a difference. But that's not the role I see him in.

Anyway we have those guys. Or are trying to grow them. The ideal is if Sarr actually develops that 3-ball as a real threat and forces teams to send bigs to chase him. Too, Kyshawn looks like he can become that 6'10" outside shooting 3&D forward. Key is not going to be a power player on the interior but he will be tall enough to force long armed 3's and 4's to be sent at him if his shot starts falling. IF Vuk proves playable, same thing. Bigs will chase to outside, leaving the interior soft.

So rather than add an additional lanky outside shooting forward, more than anything we need an upgrade in defensive smarts, we need rebounding, junk scoring in the front court, situational intelligence, toughness. We need a screen setter and playmaker at the hub position. We need an offensive rebounder who can anticipate and track down the misses we generate from 3. We need a clean-up guy in the paint who can score with opportunistic buckets and rebound in traffic.

And for our guards we need a big who can play big. Screen setters and heavy picks. Bub hit 60% from mid-range for much of the year. And a high % from long two. He hits open shots, and can get himself open. He's a master of using screens and picks to get himself free. He needs a partner in the 2-man game to get those open looks. I expect his clean shooting to translate into a pretty-looking 3pt % over time. His stepback already looks nice. If he has a dirty work guy to smear opponents with a pick and force them under, he can get daylight for that developing threeball. A smart savvy utility player will open his game wide.

Double that need if we do get a guy like Tre Johnson who can run off ball all game long, and is a remarkable catch and shoot player. You want a guy who can lead the league in screen assists. We don't have that guy here and can't grow one. Kyshawn is not setting a heavy pick. Sarr would fold like origami.

But what we do have in our forwards and bigs are smooth passers with smart read/react ability. CMB adds to and enhances that. His game smarts is unsettling. Not just his scoring, but passing and offball play. Check his initiation from the top of the key in dribble drive or passing off the short roll. He has some of the same dribble attack that DQ has, same smarts, with quicker feet.

This role is not unique. Draymond Green did not invent the high post offense, he just took advantage of the fact that he had players around him that played well in motion. He started out playing as a connector from the FT. Didn't add range until teams consistently started leaving him open. Until then he was playing a pretty traditional high post offense, passing to guards in motion and Iggy on the backdoor cut. We have motion guards in Poole/Bub. We have a potential Iggy in Bilal. Yes we need shooters, but shooters are available in every draft. I want a true Pivot player.

I'll take that player in Sorber if we can get him. He's smart, young and legit huge. Longer than most centers in wingspan, heaviest player in this draft with a frame strong enough to hold at a standstill your Embiid/Joker/Edey goliaths. (Or at least check them up long enough for Sarr to come in with a weakside block). As a freshman he showed high end passing and smarts, with the makings of a solid jumpshot. If we don't take Maluach early, then Sorber is my guy mid-draft. But on defense while he may be effective at his position he would be less versatile than CMB.

On defense CMB adds a defensive captain we need most. A defender who can play both large and small as needed, who can box out multiple players on a single possession, switch 1-5, wreak havoc in passing lanes by anticipation and reach without having to jump out of position. In this draft only Cedric Coward and Rasheer Fleming had both wider wingspan and better lane agility. (Freaks the both of them). Neither of those guys had the two-way smarts I see in CMB though. He's an instant veteran. We spend a roster spot every year on a guy like Anthony Gill at the back end of our roster, instead of a young talented leader who can grow with the team. Why spend that slot on a guy who is #15 on the roster and only plays in garbage time. If you want your young players to get better, get them a peer who can exemplify the play while elevating the efficiency of your starters. I like Justin Champagnie just fine, our team plays better with his rebounding and energy. My sense is CMB would do the same for the team, only as a player who is bigger, longer, more solid and a better defender. I see him as our Al Horford. PJ Tucker. Udonis Haslem. Lu Dort. That indispensable guy on winning teams who doesn't get the credit for the work they do, but leads the team in Plus/Minus every minute they are out there.

At 6? Not where I want to take him. I think he slips since his game doesn't show up in workouts and measurements. But if I could steal him outside the lottery? Get an extra pick? I'm happy for it.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1342 » by gesa2 » Sun May 25, 2025 10:51 pm

I don’t like CMB at 6 but if he drops to 18 or if we trade up to 10-15 to get him I’m all for it. Someone as smart as he seems on the floor is going to be able to contribute.

Still not on the Maluach train. Too slow to react, and I still worry about his stamina - why wasn’t he able to play more minutes at Duke?

edited to add: or read what Doc says just above me with more eloquence and detail
Making extreme statements like "only" sounds like there are "no" Jokics in this draft? Jokic is an engine that was drafted in the 2nd round. Always a chance to see diamond dropped by sloppy burgular after a theft.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1343 » by AFM » Sun May 25, 2025 11:15 pm

Any time you can nab someone who averages 6 and 4 in the lottery you have to do it. I’d even trade 18 to make sure we don’t lose him
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1344 » by dobrojim » Sun May 25, 2025 11:27 pm

Those examples (Nat cited)are interesting but let's not forget
that those early Dray/Pascal seasons were pre or at
the beginning of the space&pace era ie before many
coaches encouraged their lessor shooters to practice
or take those those shots. At least that's my recollection.

Which is not saying CMB cannot improve to a serviceable
level.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1345 » by dobrojim » Sun May 25, 2025 11:42 pm

Just have to add for zards that Bryant popped on
the highlight tapes I saw. He's definitely studly.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1346 » by closg00 » Sun May 25, 2025 11:52 pm

Maluach may be too-risky to select, but for immigration reasons. KM needs a P-1 athletes Visa, but he can't get one because the Admn has revoked all Visas for anyone from South Sudan, he could stay and hope ICE does not greet him after a practice or something.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1347 » by AFM » Mon May 26, 2025 12:17 am

closg00 wrote:Maluach may be too-risky to select, but for immigration reasons. KM needs a P-1 athletes Visa, but he can't get one because the Admn has revoked all Visas for anyone from South Sudan, he could stay and hope ICE does not greet him after a practice or something.


That’s what I read. It’s not safe for him to leave the country apparently.

Not gonna join us on TOR road trips.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1348 » by tontoz » Mon May 26, 2025 12:54 am

Nice to see people on the Tre bandwagon. A few months back when I was posting his clips after games the boards reaction seemed to be.... :sleep:

He has the clutch gene too. He came up big late in several close games. Just sucks we fell to 6 and he will probably be gone already.

:no:
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1349 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 26, 2025 7:53 am

Wizards worked out Labaron Philon.


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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1350 » by doclinkin » Mon May 26, 2025 11:14 am

My only caveat on CMB is that his defensive leadership, rebounding, and interior scoring are exactly what the team needed last year. Exactly what cost the team wins. I think his addition wins us too many close games. Not the blow outs but the single possession games. Endangering the tank. And if his upside isnt ‘Star’ but the best role player on a championship team, the Wiz might be more likely to pick a raw athlete who has further to develop so they can play them high minutes and stack losses.

Thats the most maddening thing about having to tank. You can’t play a guy because he’s good. Can’t pick a team that wins too much. But you hope they eventually get good enough to match their talent. A guy like CMB already maximizes his talent. His defense and rebounding will translate. His only weakness is shooting, and size. The one he can improve somewhat, the other, no.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1351 » by nate33 » Mon May 26, 2025 1:07 pm

I feel like the board is coalescing around the idea of drafting a big man at the #18 slot (assuming they don't draft Maluach at #6). I've seen pretty good arguments for CMB, Sorber, Wolf and Yaxel. For argument's sake, if we drafted Fears at #6, and all 4 of those big men were on the board at #18, which one would you want?

I like Wolf the best out of the bunch at the moment in terms of how his size and style of play fits for us, but I'm still waffling between him and Sorber because Sorber is 18 months younger. Ultimately, I like those two guys more than CMB/Yaxel because they're full-sized centers who can bang with other full-sized centers and give Sarr the option of spending some minutes at PF.

I love CMB in the abstract as a small ball 5, but we can already go to the small ball 5 look with Sarr as a 5 so I don't really see the benefit. I think CMB makes a lot more sense on other rosters.

Yaxel looks more like a pure 4 to me. We could definitely use a guy like that too, but I think our need at 5 is greater.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1352 » by payitforward » Mon May 26, 2025 1:16 pm

Great question, nate -- for me it would be Lendeborg.

Fit doesn't matter to me at this point in the rebuild. What does matter is likelihood of getting a high-level producer.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2S 

Post#1353 » by Frichuela » Mon May 26, 2025 2:04 pm

nate33 wrote:I feel like the board is coalescing around the idea of drafting a big man at the #18 slot (assuming they don't draft Maluach at #6). I've seen pretty good arguments for CMB, Sorber, Wolf and Yaxel. For argument's sake, if we drafted Fears at #6, and all 4 of those big men were on the board at #18, which one would you want?

I like Wolf the best out of the bunch at the moment in terms of how his size and style of play fits for us, but I'm still waffling between him and Sorber because Sorber is 18 months younger. Ultimately, I like those two guys more than CMB/Yaxel because they're full-sized centers who can bang with other full-sized centers and give Sarr the option of spending some minutes at PF.

I love CMB in the abstract as a small ball 5, but we can already go to the small ball 5 look with Sarr as a 5 so I don't really see the benefit. I think CMB makes a lot more sense on other rosters.

Yaxel looks more like a pure 4 to me. We could definitely use a guy like that too, but I think our need at 5 is greater.


For me at #18 is Sorber, provided his medicals (and foot) are fine.

In this scenario, drafting Fears at #6 and Sorber at #18, I’d contemplate trading Poole, so we give Fears and Bub all available minutes at the PG spot and we assure the tank.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1354 » by pcbothwel » Mon May 26, 2025 2:18 pm

payitforward wrote:Great question, nate -- for me it would be Lendeborg.

Fit doesn't matter to me at this point in the rebuild. What does matter is likelihood of getting a high-level producer.

Agreed. Im high on Wolf, but I might lean Yaxel when its all said and done. I see the sharp playmaking, feel, and defense... which gives me these Horford/Diaw/Kyle Anderson vibes. But he has more size, energy, and athletic pop, which gets a little more Brandon Clarke.

So Wolf is a bit more toolsy Kelly Olynyk, with a Sabonis type ceiling if it all comes together.
And Yaxel is a Boris Diaw/Royce White/Brandon Clarke hybrid, with a Julius Randle type offensive ceiling if it all comes together.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1355 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 26, 2025 2:24 pm

nate33 wrote:I feel like the board is coalescing around the idea of drafting a big man at the #18 slot (assuming they don't draft Maluach at #6). I've seen pretty good arguments for CMB, Sorber, Wolf and Yaxel. For argument's sake, if we drafted Fears at #6, and all 4 of those big men were on the board at #18, which one would you want?

I like Wolf the best out of the bunch at the moment in terms of how his size and style of play fits for us, but I'm still waffling between him and Sorber because Sorber is 18 months younger. Ultimately, I like those two guys more than CMB/Yaxel because they're full-sized centers who can bang with other full-sized centers and give Sarr the option of spending some minutes at PF.

I love CMB in the abstract as a small ball 5, but we can already go to the small ball 5 look with Sarr as a 5 so I don't really see the benefit. I think CMB makes a lot more sense on other rosters.

Yaxel looks more like a pure 4 to me. We could definitely use a guy like that too, but I think our need at 5 is greater.




My top choices would be Sorber and Asa Newell.

Sorber I view as the traditional 5. He'd essentially be our Jarrett Allen moving Sarr to the Evan Mobley role. I see Sorber's offensive game being similar to Jonas Valanciunas with added rim protection/defense. Passing out of the high post, setting screens, pick n roll, pick n pop, boxing out and controlling the boards.

Asa is more of a 4/5 combo, not as strong as Sorber, but quicker and more athletic, a more versatile defender, not as skilled a passer for running the offense, but more of an energy guy who gets his rebounds and offense from pure hustle, and more offensive upside than Sorber.


In fact our interior is such a need IMO, I'd be looking to double up at 40. I really like Niederhauser there!
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1356 » by NatP4 » Mon May 26, 2025 2:24 pm

I’d have a hard time taking Tre Johnson at #6. Richardson was significantly more productive while being almost a full year younger. Traore also has much higher upside. Gotta trade down in that spot.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1357 » by DCZards » Mon May 26, 2025 2:24 pm

Sorber. Youth, size & length, high bball IQ, fundamentally sound on both ends of the court.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1358 » by gesa2 » Mon May 26, 2025 3:30 pm

For me it’d be really close between Sorber and CMB with Sorber winning if the medicals work out -youth and size winning over production. But I think one of the two will be gone.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1359 » by TheBlackCzar » Mon May 26, 2025 3:42 pm

NatP4 wrote:I’d have a hard time taking Tre Johnson at #6. Richardson was significantly more productive while being almost a full year younger. Traore also has much higher upside. Gotta trade down in that spot.



Dude has no left hand.... I'm sorry but if your dad played in the NBA and you don't have a left hand I gotta be concerned....
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#1360 » by NatP4 » Mon May 26, 2025 4:21 pm

nate33 wrote:I love CMB in the abstract as a small ball 5, but we can already go to the small ball 5 look with Sarr as a 5 so I don't really see the benefit. I think CMB makes a lot more sense on other rosters.


Looks like Sorber is going to be mostly a drop coverage 5 at the next level. Something like a Wendell Carter/Al Horford ceiling? Do you see Sarr as a long term 4? I think his true upside is as a rim protecting switch everything 5 with a vulnerability to low post/interior players& rebounding/boxing out.

The Wizards need to find a player that fits as an interior defender/rebounder, that can still allow them to play a switch heavy defense/function as a true PF/Wing. To me, that is CMB.

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