The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
The EuroLeague just had its 2025 EuroLeague Final Four and they honored the all-time All-25 best GOAT players in EuroLeague's history anniversary team.
The EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Players voting was done by fans online, media that has covered the EuroLeague over its history, past and present EuroLeague coaches, and past and present EuroLeague players.
Overall Vote Results (media, fans, coaches and players vote):
The EuroLeague's Top 25 Players of All-Time:
1. Vassilis Spanoulis (Greece)
2. Sergio Llull (Spain)
3. Nando De Colo (France)
4. Ramunas Siskauskas (Lithuania)
5. Nikola Vujcic (Croatia)
6. Mike James (USA)
7. Dimitris Diamantidis (Greece)
8. Anthony Parker (USA)
9. Vasilije Micic (Serbia)
10. Sergio Rodriguez (Spain)
11. Edy Tavares (Cape Verde)
12. Milos Teodosic (Serbia)
13. Luka Doncic (Slovenia)
14. Dejan Bodiroga (Serbia)
15. Georgios Printezis (Greece)
16. Kyle Hines (USA)
17. Theodoros Papaloukas (Greece)
18. Bogdan Bogdanovic (Serbia)
19. Juan Carlos Navarro (Spain)
20. Mike Batiste (USA)
21. Shane Larkin (USA)
22. Sarunas Jasikevicius (Lithuania)
23. Manu Ginobili (Argentina)
24. Rudy Fernandez (Spain)
25. Kostas Sloukas (Greece)
Media Vote Results:
Media Vote Results 1-25:
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
1. Vassilis Spanoulis (Greece)
2. Dimitris Diamantidis (Greece)
3. Mike James (USA)
4. Nando De Colo (France)
5. Juan Carlos Navarro (Spain)
6. Vasilije Micic (Serbia)
7. Sergio Llull (Spain)
8. Sarunas Jasikevicius (Lithuania)
9. Milos Teodosic (Serbia)
10. Theodoros Papaloukas (Greece)
11. Rudy Fernandez (Spain)
12. Sergio Rodriguez (Spain)
13. Anthony Parker (USA)
14. Dejan Bodiroga (Serbia)
15. Jan Vesely (Czech Republic)*
16. Mike Batiste (USA)
17. Nikola Mirotic (Montenegro)*
18. Sasha Vezenkov (Cyprus)*
19. Kostas Sloukas (Greece)
20. Nikola Vujcic (Croatia)
21. Edy Tavares (Cape Verde)
22. Kyle Hines (USA)
23. Felipe Reyes (Spain)*
24. Shane Larkin (USA)
25. Georgios Printezis (Greece)
Media Vote Results 26-41:
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
26. Marcus Brown (USA)*
27. Nick Calathes (USA)*
28. Ramunas Siskauskas (Lithuania)
29. Luis Scola (Argentina)*
30. Trajan Langdon (USA)*
31. Erazem Lorbek (Slovenia)*
32. Andrei Kirilenko (Russia)*
33. Manu Ginobili (Argentina)
34. Luka Doncic (Slovenia)
35. Ioannis Bourousis (Greece)*
36. Alphonso Ford (USA)*
37. Will Clyburn (USA)*
38. Victor Khryapa (Russia)*
39. Alexey Shved (Russia)*
40. Tiago Splitter (Brazil)*
41. Paulius Jankunas (Lithuania)*
Fan's Vote Results (voters could vote once a day online):
Fan's Vote Results 1-25:
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
1. Dimitris Diamantidis (Greece)
2. Sarunas Jasikevicius (Lithuania)
3. Vassilis Spanoulis (Greece)
4. Dejan Bodiroga (Serbia)
5. Theodoros Papaloukas (Greece)
6. Kostas Sloukas (Greece)
7. Juan Carlos Navarro (Spain)
8. Mike Batiste (USA)
9. Georgios Printezis (Greece)
10. Kyle Hines (USA)
11. Mike James (USA)
12. Sergio Llull (Spain)
13. Vasilije Micic (Serbia)
14. Shane Larkin (USA)
15. Luka Doncic (Slovenia)
16. Sergio Rodriguez (Spain)
17. Nando De Colo (France)
18. Antonis Fotsis (Greece)*
19. Nick Calathes (USA)*
20. Fragiskos Alvertis (Greece)*
21. Milos Teodosic (Serbia)
22. Bogdan Bogdanovic (Serbia)
23. Edy Tavares (Cape Verde)
24. Ramunas Siskauskas (Lithuania)
25. Rudy Fernandez (Spain)
Fan's Vote Results 26-100::
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
26. Sasha Vezenkov (Cyprus)*
27. Manu Ginobili (Argentina)
28. Kostas Papanikolaou (Greece)*
29. Arvydas Sabonis (Lithuania)*
30. Anthony Parker (USA)
31. Kostas Tsartsaris (Greece)*
32. Mathias Lessort (France)*
33. Facundo Campazzo (Argentina)*
34. Nikola Vujcic (Croatia)
35. Alphonso Ford (USA)*
36. Nikos Zisis (Greece)*
37. Andrei Kirilenko (Russia)*
38. Sofoklis Schortsanitis (Greece)*
39. Ioannis Bourousis (Greece)*
40. Drew Nicholas (USA)*
41. Luis Scola (Argentina)*
42. Stratos Perperoglou (Greece)*
43. James Gist (USA)*
44. Nikola Mirotic (Montenegro)*
45. Bryant Dunston (USA)*
46. Ibrahim Kutluay (Turkey)*
47. Matjaz Smodis (Slovenia)*
48. Jan Vesely (Czech Republic)*
49. Felipe Reyes (Spain)*
50. Victor Khryapa (Russia)*
51. Jon Robert Holden (USA)*
52. Dejan Tomasevic (Serbia)*
53. Alexey Shved (Russia)*
54. Jonas Maciulis (Lithuania)*
55. Arvydas Macijauskas (Lithuania)*
56. Daniel Hackett (Italy)*
57. Ricky Rubio (Spain)*
58. Luigi Datome (Italy)*
59. Tyrese Rice (USA)*
60. Keith Langford (USA)*
61. Tornike Shengelia (Georgia)*
62. Jaka Lakovic (Slovenia)*
63. Trajan Langdon (USA)*
64. David Andersen (Australia)*
65. Will Clyburn (USA)*
66. Nemanja Bjelica (Serbia)*
67. Nikola Kalinic (Serbia)*
68. Ekpe Udoh (USA)*
69. Jaycee Caroll (USA)*
70. Nikita Kurbanov (Russia)*
71. Cory Higgins (USA)*
72. Andres Nocioni (Argentina)*
73. Gregor F_u_c_k_a (Slovenia)*
74. Andrey Vorontsevich (Russia)*
75. Tyus Edney (USA)*
76. Pablo Prigioni (Argentina)*
77. Igor Rakocevic (Serbia)*
78. Paulius Jankunas (Lithuania)*
79. Tiago Splitter (Brazil)*
80. Gianluca Basile (Italy)*
81. Nenad Krstic (Serbia)*
82. Jorge Garbajosa (Spain)*
83. Derrick Sharp (USA)*
84. Nicolo Melli (Italy)*
85. Ante Tomic (Croatia)*
86. Pete Mickeal (USA)*
87. David Blu (USA)*
88. Fabian Causeur (France)*
89. Rodrigue Beaubois (France)*
90. Marcus Brown (USA)*
91. Mirsad Turkcan (Turkey)*
92. Krunoslav Simon (Croatia)*
93. Maceo Baston (USA)*
94. Terrell McIntyre (USA)*
95. Gustavo Ayon (Mexico)*
96. Tibor Pleiss (Germany)*
97. Tanoka Beard (USA)*
98. Erazem Lorbek (Slovenia)*
99. Louis Bullock (USA)*
100. Tal Burstein (Israel)*
The EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Players voting was done by fans online, media that has covered the EuroLeague over its history, past and present EuroLeague coaches, and past and present EuroLeague players.
Overall Vote Results (media, fans, coaches and players vote):
The EuroLeague's Top 25 Players of All-Time:
1. Vassilis Spanoulis (Greece)
2. Sergio Llull (Spain)
3. Nando De Colo (France)
4. Ramunas Siskauskas (Lithuania)
5. Nikola Vujcic (Croatia)
6. Mike James (USA)
7. Dimitris Diamantidis (Greece)
8. Anthony Parker (USA)
9. Vasilije Micic (Serbia)
10. Sergio Rodriguez (Spain)
11. Edy Tavares (Cape Verde)
12. Milos Teodosic (Serbia)
13. Luka Doncic (Slovenia)
14. Dejan Bodiroga (Serbia)
15. Georgios Printezis (Greece)
16. Kyle Hines (USA)
17. Theodoros Papaloukas (Greece)
18. Bogdan Bogdanovic (Serbia)
19. Juan Carlos Navarro (Spain)
20. Mike Batiste (USA)
21. Shane Larkin (USA)
22. Sarunas Jasikevicius (Lithuania)
23. Manu Ginobili (Argentina)
24. Rudy Fernandez (Spain)
25. Kostas Sloukas (Greece)
Media Vote Results:
Media Vote Results 1-25:
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
1. Vassilis Spanoulis (Greece)
2. Dimitris Diamantidis (Greece)
3. Mike James (USA)
4. Nando De Colo (France)
5. Juan Carlos Navarro (Spain)
6. Vasilije Micic (Serbia)
7. Sergio Llull (Spain)
8. Sarunas Jasikevicius (Lithuania)
9. Milos Teodosic (Serbia)
10. Theodoros Papaloukas (Greece)
11. Rudy Fernandez (Spain)
12. Sergio Rodriguez (Spain)
13. Anthony Parker (USA)
14. Dejan Bodiroga (Serbia)
15. Jan Vesely (Czech Republic)*
16. Mike Batiste (USA)
17. Nikola Mirotic (Montenegro)*
18. Sasha Vezenkov (Cyprus)*
19. Kostas Sloukas (Greece)
20. Nikola Vujcic (Croatia)
21. Edy Tavares (Cape Verde)
22. Kyle Hines (USA)
23. Felipe Reyes (Spain)*
24. Shane Larkin (USA)
25. Georgios Printezis (Greece)
Media Vote Results 26-41:
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
26. Marcus Brown (USA)*
27. Nick Calathes (USA)*
28. Ramunas Siskauskas (Lithuania)
29. Luis Scola (Argentina)*
30. Trajan Langdon (USA)*
31. Erazem Lorbek (Slovenia)*
32. Andrei Kirilenko (Russia)*
33. Manu Ginobili (Argentina)
34. Luka Doncic (Slovenia)
35. Ioannis Bourousis (Greece)*
36. Alphonso Ford (USA)*
37. Will Clyburn (USA)*
38. Victor Khryapa (Russia)*
39. Alexey Shved (Russia)*
40. Tiago Splitter (Brazil)*
41. Paulius Jankunas (Lithuania)*
Fan's Vote Results (voters could vote once a day online):
Fan's Vote Results 1-25:
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
1. Dimitris Diamantidis (Greece)
2. Sarunas Jasikevicius (Lithuania)
3. Vassilis Spanoulis (Greece)
4. Dejan Bodiroga (Serbia)
5. Theodoros Papaloukas (Greece)
6. Kostas Sloukas (Greece)
7. Juan Carlos Navarro (Spain)
8. Mike Batiste (USA)
9. Georgios Printezis (Greece)
10. Kyle Hines (USA)
11. Mike James (USA)
12. Sergio Llull (Spain)
13. Vasilije Micic (Serbia)
14. Shane Larkin (USA)
15. Luka Doncic (Slovenia)
16. Sergio Rodriguez (Spain)
17. Nando De Colo (France)
18. Antonis Fotsis (Greece)*
19. Nick Calathes (USA)*
20. Fragiskos Alvertis (Greece)*
21. Milos Teodosic (Serbia)
22. Bogdan Bogdanovic (Serbia)
23. Edy Tavares (Cape Verde)
24. Ramunas Siskauskas (Lithuania)
25. Rudy Fernandez (Spain)
Fan's Vote Results 26-100::
*players did not make the EuroLeague's Top 25 All-Time Selection
26. Sasha Vezenkov (Cyprus)*
27. Manu Ginobili (Argentina)
28. Kostas Papanikolaou (Greece)*
29. Arvydas Sabonis (Lithuania)*
30. Anthony Parker (USA)
31. Kostas Tsartsaris (Greece)*
32. Mathias Lessort (France)*
33. Facundo Campazzo (Argentina)*
34. Nikola Vujcic (Croatia)
35. Alphonso Ford (USA)*
36. Nikos Zisis (Greece)*
37. Andrei Kirilenko (Russia)*
38. Sofoklis Schortsanitis (Greece)*
39. Ioannis Bourousis (Greece)*
40. Drew Nicholas (USA)*
41. Luis Scola (Argentina)*
42. Stratos Perperoglou (Greece)*
43. James Gist (USA)*
44. Nikola Mirotic (Montenegro)*
45. Bryant Dunston (USA)*
46. Ibrahim Kutluay (Turkey)*
47. Matjaz Smodis (Slovenia)*
48. Jan Vesely (Czech Republic)*
49. Felipe Reyes (Spain)*
50. Victor Khryapa (Russia)*
51. Jon Robert Holden (USA)*
52. Dejan Tomasevic (Serbia)*
53. Alexey Shved (Russia)*
54. Jonas Maciulis (Lithuania)*
55. Arvydas Macijauskas (Lithuania)*
56. Daniel Hackett (Italy)*
57. Ricky Rubio (Spain)*
58. Luigi Datome (Italy)*
59. Tyrese Rice (USA)*
60. Keith Langford (USA)*
61. Tornike Shengelia (Georgia)*
62. Jaka Lakovic (Slovenia)*
63. Trajan Langdon (USA)*
64. David Andersen (Australia)*
65. Will Clyburn (USA)*
66. Nemanja Bjelica (Serbia)*
67. Nikola Kalinic (Serbia)*
68. Ekpe Udoh (USA)*
69. Jaycee Caroll (USA)*
70. Nikita Kurbanov (Russia)*
71. Cory Higgins (USA)*
72. Andres Nocioni (Argentina)*
73. Gregor F_u_c_k_a (Slovenia)*
74. Andrey Vorontsevich (Russia)*
75. Tyus Edney (USA)*
76. Pablo Prigioni (Argentina)*
77. Igor Rakocevic (Serbia)*
78. Paulius Jankunas (Lithuania)*
79. Tiago Splitter (Brazil)*
80. Gianluca Basile (Italy)*
81. Nenad Krstic (Serbia)*
82. Jorge Garbajosa (Spain)*
83. Derrick Sharp (USA)*
84. Nicolo Melli (Italy)*
85. Ante Tomic (Croatia)*
86. Pete Mickeal (USA)*
87. David Blu (USA)*
88. Fabian Causeur (France)*
89. Rodrigue Beaubois (France)*
90. Marcus Brown (USA)*
91. Mirsad Turkcan (Turkey)*
92. Krunoslav Simon (Croatia)*
93. Maceo Baston (USA)*
94. Terrell McIntyre (USA)*
95. Gustavo Ayon (Mexico)*
96. Tibor Pleiss (Germany)*
97. Tanoka Beard (USA)*
98. Erazem Lorbek (Slovenia)*
99. Louis Bullock (USA)*
100. Tal Burstein (Israel)*
Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
- Liam_Gallagher
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Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
That looks like the free agents list in NBA 2k.
Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
- durden_tyler
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Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
Thanks for the list. Except for a couple or more, indeed a list why the quality of this league is multiple tiers below the NBA.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If there is no basketball in heaven, i am not going.
Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
durden_tyler wrote:Thanks for the list. Except for a couple or more, indeed a list why the quality of this league is multiple tiers below the NBA.
If EuroLeague was "multiple tiers" below the NBA, it would be impossible for an NBA team to ever lose a game to a EuroLeague team. Yet, NBA teams have lost a bunch of games to EuroLeague teams.
If there was even one tier of difference in the levels, just one, NBA teams could never lose a game to a EuroLeague team.
You obviously don't understand what a tier system is.
NBA to G League is one tier. NBA to NCAA Division I is two tiers. So NBA to NCAA Division I is "multiple tiers".
There is a zero percent chance that any NCAA Division I team can beat any NBA ream, or any EuroLeague team either. There is also a zero percent chance that any G League team could ever beat an NBA or EuroLeague team, and that's just one tier level of difference, and not "multiple tiers".
I hope you are just talking smack and that you don't actually believe that EuroLeague teams are "multiple tiers" apart, or in other words, that EuroLeague teams are at the same level as NCAA college teams.
Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
- LuDux1
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Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
IT'S A TRA...
Damn, too late
durden_tyler wrote:Thanks for the list. Except for a couple or more, indeed a list why the quality of this league is multiple tiers below the NBA.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn, too late
Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
Spanoulis what a scrub, has to be the worst player ever to pick up a basketball.
TheLowlySquire wrote:Wow, Arda! Huge!
Howard Mass wrote:Arda is not a terrorist. Arda is a good person.
Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
I don't have much problem with the list, but the order is a joke.
Parker and Bodiroga should have been at the top, Llull and James at the bottom.
Parker and Bodiroga should have been at the top, Llull and James at the bottom.
If you have more "Posts" than "And1", don't feel bad if I didn't reply to you - I just don't like to speak with people who argue a lot 

Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
I don’t follow euro league but I’m surprised La Bamba Juan Carlos Navarro wasn’t ranked better.
I was expecting him to be #1 or top 3
I was expecting him to be #1 or top 3
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr
Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
- Woodsanity
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
You know a league is weak when Mike James is ranked in the top 10.
All NBA Chokers List
PG: Harden
SG: Demar Derozan
SF: Paul George
PF: Karl Malone
C: Embiid (Harden of Centers)
PG: Harden
SG: Demar Derozan
SF: Paul George
PF: Karl Malone
C: Embiid (Harden of Centers)
Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
Woodsanity wrote:You know a league is weak when Mike James is ranked in the top 10.
He should not be ranked that high. The media voters put him at number 3. So I guess that's how he got 6th overall. European basketball media has a very strange obsession with Mike James.
They call him the EuroLeague GOAT like 20 times a week, even though he's never won a championship and is probably one of the worst players ever at the final four stage.
I think it's because the EuroLeague uses American marketing companies to run its social media, podcasts and such now. It's seems pretty clear that they want an American to be considered the EuroLeague GOAT, and James is the only option they have to push that narrative on.
Objectively speaking, I don't think he's higher than top 30 at best.
Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
mastermixer wrote:I don’t follow euro league but I’m surprised La Bamba Juan Carlos Navarro wasn’t ranked better.
I was expecting him to be #1 or top 3
He's one of my favorite EuroLeague players, but his EuroLeague career wasn't that great as to be #1 to #3. Yeah, he's definitely ranked too low, but he's most definitely not in the GOAT discussion either.
I'd personally have Navarro, Bodiroga, and Jasikevicius in the top 6. So I'd rank them all higher. But if you look at it with an objective analysis, Navarro isn't in the GOAT discussion.
Also keep in mind that in the overall vote it included players and coaches voting. So some players that were bad at defense will get ranked lower probably than expected. Because the coaches and players that went up against them also factor in what they were doing on defense.
Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
Sarunas Jasikevicius ... nearly forgot about him. I was hoping he would be useful when the Pacers signed him.
That was not the case.
That was not the case.
Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
xBulletproof wrote:Sarunas Jasikevicius ... nearly forgot about him. I was hoping he would be useful when the Pacers signed him.
That was not the case.
He's a coach now. He just won his first EuroLeague championship as a head coach on Sunday.
Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
Man, Manu gets disrespected everywhere it if wasn't for players and coaches, media and fans would have Kyle Hines and Shane Larkin over him 

Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
- GeorgeMarcus
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
I feel like I'm missing something. Where is Sabonis on the all-time rank?
Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
GeorgeMarcus wrote:I feel like I'm missing something. Where is Sabonis on the all-time rank?
He's number 29 on the fan's vote.
Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
Any list that has Micic on it is a trash list. That man doesnt even know to walk right.
I feel sad for the older generations of euroleague players that get so disrespected by being mixed in with these basketball rejects.
I feel sad for the older generations of euroleague players that get so disrespected by being mixed in with these basketball rejects.
Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
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Re: The Top 25 Players In EuroLeague History Team
Mirotic12 wrote:durden_tyler wrote:Thanks for the list. Except for a couple or more, indeed a list why the quality of this league is multiple tiers below the NBA.
If EuroLeague was "multiple tiers" below the NBA, it would be impossible for an NBA team to ever lose a game to a EuroLeague team. Yet, NBA teams have lost a bunch of games to EuroLeague teams.
To both of you, tiers is a subjective amount. It can be one or multiple depending on how the tiers are defined. Within the NBA alone, you could categorize players in 3 tiers, 10 tiers, whatever.
Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: The EuroLeague GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
Myth wrote:Mirotic12 wrote:durden_tyler wrote:Thanks for the list. Except for a couple or more, indeed a list why the quality of this league is multiple tiers below the NBA.
If EuroLeague was "multiple tiers" below the NBA, it would be impossible for an NBA team to ever lose a game to a EuroLeague team. Yet, NBA teams have lost a bunch of games to EuroLeague teams.
To both of you, tiers is a subjective amount. It can be one or multiple depending on how the tiers are defined. Within the NBA alone, you could categorize players in 3 tiers, 10 tiers, whatever.
Yes, for players.. But they were talking about league tiers. League tiers are very clearly defined.
Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
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Re: EuroLeague's All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked 1-25
How is Luka not the clear #1 here?