RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[ball_takes23]

This website is oversaturated with genX and older millennial posters, so the MJ consensus on here will outlive the MJ consensus irl, but its inevitable that Lebron will be considered the GOAT at some point after he retires. I think its very obvious he already should be considered the GOAT and its silly its still even a debate.

If you look at all of the respective GOATs in their sport - MJ, Messi, Tiger, Djokovic, Brady, Gretzky - they all became the GOATs well before they retired. MJ will definitely be passed over at some point, but it won't be by Lebron. That ship has sailed.

[michaelm]

This website is oversaturated with genX and older millennial posters, so the MJ consensus on here will outlive the MJ consensus irl, but its inevitable that Lebron will be considered the GOAT at some point after he retires. I think its very obvious he already should be considered the GOAT and its silly its still even a debate.

If you look at all of the respective GOATs in their sport - MJ, Messi, Tiger, Djokovic, Brady, Gretzky - they all became the GOATs well before they retired. MJ will definitely be passed over at some point, but it won't be by Lebron. That ship has sailed.

I think that is it. Certainly it would be ridiculous to claim Jordan can’t/won’t ever be surpassed.

[MavsDirk41]

Interesting, since you seem to harp on this 'failure' a lot. Makes it seem like your own excuse to detract from his many accomplishments on the court. Jordan's record in the playoffs before Pippen showed up would seem a bit more consequential, considering he never even made it to the Finals before him.

In the Dallas series, Lebron had more turnovers than he had free throw attempts. Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers saw the free throw line more than him. Dallas had an effective strategy to neutralize his production and they won. They could settle with Wade having arguably the best performance of either team in the series, so long as their mix of zone schemes and mismatches kept Lebron out of the lane and the ball out of his hands. Dallas made anyone but Lebron beat them, and they won.

Lol wow….ok

Jordan without Pippen:

84/85 82 games 28/7/6 ROY allstar allnba 2nd team 6th in mvp voting

85/86 only played 17 regular season games because he broke his foot

86/87 82 games 37/5/5 allstar allnba 1st team 2nd in mvp voting

01/02 38 year old Jordan only played 60 games averaging 23/6/5 - his best teammate was 23 year old Rip Hamilton who only played 63 games that season

02/03 39 year old Jordan played all 82 averaging 20/6/4 - his best teammate was 28 Jerry Stackhouse who only played 70 games that year

But yea lets crap on Jordan for winning 6 championships with Pippen as his Robin and act like he couldn’t do anything without him. Only a certain fanbase thinks this way.

And just stop with the excuses they are embarrassing

No doubt LeBron could do a couple of things better than Jordan, but the question for me is whether in a team sport being a ‘more complete’ player made LeBron’s teams better. IMO there was nothing peak Jordan lacked that the teams constructed around him needed, and if his teams were better that is part of the point.

Yea James could do a couple things better than Jordan and Jordan could do a couple things better than James.

But they won differently. Jordan and Pippen became possibly the best duo in nba history with that big (Grant/Rodman) as the third piece and solid role players. Ever since leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has preferred teaming up with established all stars. Different approaches.

[Showtime 80]

On a complete side note, it’s probably gotta be killing James to see that Jumpman logo all over the sports world on multiple jerseys along with the brand still outselling all the modern players by a wide margin.

He’s so delusional he probably truly believed his little crappy LeBron brand was gonna become as dominant and iconic Failed on that too bud

[michaelm]

Lol wow….ok

Jordan without Pippen:

84/85 82 games 28/7/6 ROY allstar allnba 2nd team 6th in mvp voting

85/86 only played 17 regular season games because he broke his foot

86/87 82 games 37/5/5 allstar allnba 1st team 2nd in mvp voting

01/02 38 year old Jordan only played 60 games averaging 23/6/5 - his best teammate was 23 year old Rip Hamilton who only played 63 games that season

02/03 39 year old Jordan played all 82 averaging 20/6/4 - his best teammate was 28 Jerry Stackhouse who only played 70 games that year

But yea lets crap on Jordan for winning 6 championships with Pippen as his Robin and act like he couldn’t do anything without him. Only a certain fanbase thinks this way.

And just stop with the excuses they are embarrassing

No doubt LeBron could do a couple of things better than Jordan, but the question for me is whether in a team sport being a ‘more complete’ player made LeBron’s teams better. IMO there was nothing peak Jordan lacked that the teams constructed around him needed, and if his teams were better that is part of the point.

Yea James could do a couple things better than Jordan and Jordan could do a couple things better than James.

But they won differently. Jordan and Pippen became possibly the best duo in nba history with that big (Grant/Rodman) as the third piece and solid role players. Ever since leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has preferred teaming up with established all stars. Different approaches.

This has always been my point, teaming up with all stars regardless of fit is in all likelihood not the best way to go, but it is what LeBron chose and the consequences are on him. I extremely doubt he deliberately chose to make his path more difficult.

[jehosafats]

Lol wow….ok

Jordan without Pippen:

84/85 82 games 28/7/6 ROY allstar allnba 2nd team 6th in mvp voting

85/86 only played 17 regular season games because he broke his foot

86/87 82 games 37/5/5 allstar allnba 1st team 2nd in mvp voting

01/02 38 year old Jordan only played 60 games averaging 23/6/5 - his best teammate was 23 year old Rip Hamilton who only played 63 games that season

02/03 39 year old Jordan played all 82 averaging 20/6/4 - his best teammate was 28 Jerry Stackhouse who only played 70 games that year

But yea lets crap on Jordan for winning 6 championships with Pippen as his Robin and act like he couldn’t do anything without him. Only a certain fanbase thinks this way.

And just stop with the excuses they are embarrassing

No doubt LeBron could do a couple of things better than Jordan, but the question for me is whether in a team sport being a ‘more complete’ player made LeBron’s teams better. IMO there was nothing peak Jordan lacked that the teams constructed around him needed, and if his teams were better that is part of the point.

Yea James could do a couple things better than Jordan and Jordan could do a couple things better than James.

But they won differently. Jordan and Pippen became possibly the best duo in nba history with that big (Grant/Rodman) as the third piece and solid role players. Ever since leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has preferred teaming up with established all stars. Different approaches.

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

[bledredwine]

Yea James could do a couple things better than Jordan and Jordan could do a couple things better than James.

But they won differently. Jordan and Pippen became possibly the best duo in nba history with that big (Grant/Rodman) as the third piece and solid role players. Ever since leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has preferred teaming up with established all stars. Different approaches.

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Yeah man, cause MJ sure would struggle with these defenses.... I mean these Knicks and Pacers, wow! How would Jordan get through them after the badboy pistons?

Your post is yet another example of excuses to try and prop up Lebron. Plenty of players played with both players and say it's Jordan, not close, by the way.

Jordan was scoring 40 and 50 in an era where you had 90 point games. He's straight up more dominant than Lebron's ever been.

I have a whole playlist ready for this comparison. Maybe it's time to have fun.

[MavsDirk41]

No doubt LeBron could do a couple of things better than Jordan, but the question for me is whether in a team sport being a ‘more complete’ player made LeBron’s teams better. IMO there was nothing peak Jordan lacked that the teams constructed around him needed, and if his teams were better that is part of the point.

Yea James could do a couple things better than Jordan and Jordan could do a couple things better than James.

But they won differently. Jordan and Pippen became possibly the best duo in nba history with that big (Grant/Rodman) as the third piece and solid role players. Ever since leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has preferred teaming up with established all stars. Different approaches.

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

[ScrantonBulls]

Yea James could do a couple things better than Jordan and Jordan could do a couple things better than James.

But they won differently. Jordan and Pippen became possibly the best duo in nba history with that big (Grant/Rodman) as the third piece and solid role players. Ever since leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has preferred teaming up with established all stars. Different approaches.

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

It's hilarious that people use this as legitimate argument and think it is somehow a good or smart point. MJ's teams were clearly better than any other teams in the league from players 2-12 (removing the number 1 player that is) . They literally won 55 games in 1993-94 when MJ quit on his team, only TWO games less than in 92-93 before quitting.

Somehow being drafted to and staying on the CLEARLY most talented and stacked team/organization in the league is better than signing on a top 3 team in the league. LeBron's Heat and Cavs teams were typically not even the best team in the league. For some reason being lucky enough to get drafted by a god-tier organization with the GOAT coach and best supporting cast is more honorable than signing with a good team

These types of arguments are why so many MJ fans get a bed reputation on here. There's so many good points you can make for him being a GOAT. But they resort to posting this slop? Please do better.

[MavsDirk41]

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

It's hilarious that people use this as legitimate argument and think it is somehow a good or smart point. MJ's teams were clearly better than any other teams in the league from players 2-12 (removing the number 1 player that is) . They literally won 55 games in 1993-94 when MJ quit on his team, only TWO games less than in 92-93 before quitting.

Somehow being drafted to and staying on the CLEARLY most talented and stacked team/organization in the league is better than signing on a top 3 team in the league. LeBron's Heat and Cavs teams were typically not even the best team in the league. For some reason being lucky enough to get drafted by a god-tier organization with the GOAT coach and best supporting cast is more honorable than signing with a good team

These types of arguments are why so many MJ fans get a bed reputation on here. There's so many good points you can make for him being a GOAT. But they resort to posting this slop? Please do better.

Taj FTW you are doing an amaxing job keep up the great work

[bledredwine]

Taj posts are pure comedy

[ScrantonBulls]

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

It's hilarious that people use this as legitimate argument and think it is somehow a good or smart point. MJ's teams were clearly better than any other teams in the league from players 2-12 (removing the number 1 player that is) . They literally won 55 games in 1993-94 when MJ quit on his team, only TWO games less than in 92-93 before quitting.

Somehow being drafted to and staying on the CLEARLY most talented and stacked team/organization in the league is better than signing on a top 3 team in the league. LeBron's Heat and Cavs teams were typically not even the best team in the league. For some reason being lucky enough to get drafted by a god-tier organization with the GOAT coach and best supporting cast is more honorable than signing with a good team

These types of arguments are why so many MJ fans get a bed reputation on here. There's so many good points you can make for him being a GOAT. But they resort to posting this slop? Please do better.

Taj FTW you are doing an amaxing job keep up the great work

Right back at you Taj FTW. The "complaining about superteams" analysis is almost as good as your "count teammate all-star appearances" mega-brain analysis. Now I see why your alt account had "win" in it.

[zimpy27]

On a complete side note, it’s probably gotta be killing James to see that Jumpman logo all over the sports world on multiple jerseys along with the brand still outselling all the modern players by a wide margin.

He’s so delusional he probably truly believed his little crappy LeBron brand was gonna become as dominant and iconic Failed on that too bud

LeBron loves Jordan, that's his idol.

[MavsDirk41]

Taj posts are pure comedy

Yea i dont even read his post anymore.

[jehosafats]

Yea James could do a couple things better than Jordan and Jordan could do a couple things better than James.

But they won differently. Jordan and Pippen became possibly the best duo in nba history with that big (Grant/Rodman) as the third piece and solid role players. Ever since leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has preferred teaming up with established all stars. Different approaches.

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

MJ is the best one-on-one player of all-time. He could easily exploit the illegal defense rules by isolating a defender on the empty side while everybody else stuck to their man. Plus shooting guards are rarely good defenders.

How else does one average 30+ppg for their career?

Yes, he averaged at least 30ppg against all the best one-on-one defenders of his day. And yet he was 0-6 against Larry Legend's Celtics and 1-3 against the Bad Boy Pistons in the playoffs. Critics were not convinced a volume scorer could win championships, a la Elgin Baylor. MJ's ability to lead the Bulls to six championships vindicated his style of play.

There are still people like myself who were never big on volume scorers and question that style of play in terms of winning basketball.

MJ was playing in an era where the rules and structure of the league smiled on him. Chicago had a 80-11 (.879) record against expansion teams between 1989-1998. He was obviously more than a volume scorer. He was a terrifying POA defender, who commanded buy-in from his teammates, and mostly did it without any skilled bigs on his teams. He redefined the role of the wing player. But he was a unicorn. It's still a big man's league.

Lebron took the hope and pray approach during his first stint in Cleveland. He even made it to the Finals. But he rightly saw what was happening and jumped off the treadmill. The model of sticking with the team that drafted you is noble, but it disempowered too many players and had run its course. Dame Lillard swore he would always stay in Oregon until he didn't. He landed next to another All-star player, where the results have been at best mixed.

LBJ saw where the dynamics were going before anybody else and took his talents to South Beach. That's where the rules and structure of the league favored him. Curmudgeons still giving him guff for this doesn't change the fact that he's all-time #1 points, #2 win shares, #4 assists, and #6 steals. You don't get numbers like these simply by playing basketball for a long time, either. His return to Cleveland was by far some of the greatest basketball that's ever been played. The 3-1 comeback win in the Finals is arguably the greatest championship run in a generation. He's the best all-around player of all-time.

[MavsDirk41]

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

MJ is the best one-on-one player of all-time. He could easily exploit the illegal defense rules by isolating a defender on the empty side while everybody else stuck to their man. Plus shooting guards are rarely good defenders.

How else does one average 30+ppg for their career?

Yes, he averaged at least 30ppg against all the best one-on-one defenders of his day. And yet he was 0-6 against Larry Legend's Celtics and 1-3 against the Bad Boy Pistons in the playoffs. Critics were not convinced a volume scorer could win championships, a la Elgin Baylor. MJ's ability to lead the Bulls to six championships vindicated his style of play.

There are still people like myself who were never big on volume scorers and question that style of play in terms of winning basketball.

MJ was playing in an era where the rules and structure of the league smiled on him. Chicago had a 80-11 (.879) record against expansion teams between 1989-1998. He was obviously more than a volume scorer. He was a terrifying POA defender, who commanded buy-in from his teammates, and mostly did it without any skilled bigs on his teams. He redefined the role of the wing player. But he was a unicorn. It's still a big man's league.

Lebron took the hope and pray approach during his first stint in Cleveland. He even made it to the Finals. But he rightly saw what was happening and jumped off the treadmill. The model of sticking with the team that drafted you is noble, but it disempowered too many players and had run its course. Dame Lillard swore he would always stay in Oregon until he didn't. He landed next to another All-star player, where the results have been at best mixed.

LBJ saw where the dynamics were going before anybody else and took his talents to South Beach. That's where the rules and structure of the league favored him. Curmudgeons still giving him guff for this doesn't change the fact that he's all-time #1 points, #2 win shares, #4 assists, and #6 steals. You don't get numbers like these simply by playing basketball for a long time, either. His return to Cleveland was by far some of the greatest basketball that's ever been played. The 3-1 comeback win in the Finals is arguably the greatest championship run in a generation. He's the best all-around player of all-time.

Do you honestly think Jordan wouldnt average 30 a game in todays nba? Have you heard of SGA? Similar style player just no where near as good? Jordan would average 30 or so a game in todays nba too.

Birds Celtics were better than Jordans Bulls. The Bad Boy Pistons were better than Jordans Bulls until Pippen and Grant improved to give Chicago a chance. Wasnt Jordans fault. Trust me.


You like accumulating stats? I like this…


Jordan regular season winning pct 65.9%
James regular season winning pct 64.5%
Jordan playoff winning pct 66.5%
James playoff winning pct 63.1%

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5
Jordan - 4 60 win seasons and 1 70 win season
James - 3 60 win seasons
Jordan never lost a series with homecourt advantage
James has 3 times

I value a player staying with a franchise and building a dynasty. I dont care about James this or that. He orchestrated a superteam in Miami….call it what it was

I will counter your 3-1 comeback against GS in 16….his performance in the 2011 finals is the worst of any top 5 player of all time. Jordan is the best all around player ive ever seen.

[ScrantonBulls]

Yeah all those records are great and that 3-1 comeback against a 73-9 team is cool and all, but have you ever heard of a little word called "superteam"?

Peak LDS rationale.

[ball_takes23]

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

MJ is the best one-on-one player of all-time. He could easily exploit the illegal defense rules by isolating a defender on the empty side while everybody else stuck to their man. Plus shooting guards are rarely good defenders.

How else does one average 30+ppg for their career?

Yes, he averaged at least 30ppg against all the best one-on-one defenders of his day. And yet he was 0-6 against Larry Legend's Celtics and 1-3 against the Bad Boy Pistons in the playoffs. Critics were not convinced a volume scorer could win championships, a la Elgin Baylor. MJ's ability to lead the Bulls to six championships vindicated his style of play.

There are still people like myself who were never big on volume scorers and question that style of play in terms of winning basketball.

MJ was playing in an era where the rules and structure of the league smiled on him. Chicago had a 80-11 (.879) record against expansion teams between 1989-1998. He was obviously more than a volume scorer. He was a terrifying POA defender, who commanded buy-in from his teammates, and mostly did it without any skilled bigs on his teams. He redefined the role of the wing player. But he was a unicorn. It's still a big man's league.

Lebron took the hope and pray approach during his first stint in Cleveland. He even made it to the Finals. But he rightly saw what was happening and jumped off the treadmill. The model of sticking with the team that drafted you is noble, but it disempowered too many players and had run its course. Dame Lillard swore he would always stay in Oregon until he didn't. He landed next to another All-star player, where the results have been at best mixed.

LBJ saw where the dynamics were going before anybody else and took his talents to South Beach. That's where the rules and structure of the league favored him. Curmudgeons still giving him guff for this doesn't change the fact that he's all-time #1 points, #2 win shares, #4 assists, and #6 steals. You don't get numbers like these simply by playing basketball for a long time, either. His return to Cleveland was by far some of the greatest basketball that's ever been played. The 3-1 comeback win in the Finals is arguably the greatest championship run in a generation. He's the best all-around player of all-time.

Lebron certainly is the greatest of all-time at accumulating mass amounts of points, steals and assists. James Harden and Russell Westbrook are also pretty great at that too. for those of us that value other things like the ability to form and lead all time great teams we will take Mike and Steph any day of the week

[michaelm]

It's a completely different league compared to the 1980s and 1990s. Different rules, more international players, higher-powered offensive potential, etc. Gone are the days where just one player averages 30+ppg and three-peats after breakfast. Jordan's prime (1989-1998) was in the heat of the expansion era.

The league has expanded just once since Lebron's rookie year. The NBA is more established now. Harder to defend, harder to score, harder to win championships. Teaming up with other All-Stars is no guarantee of success in today's NBA.

I've seen both of them in their primes. And LBJ is easily the best player I've seen, mainly because of his playmaking abilities. He's a wing who can play any position on the floor. This was practically unheard of back in the day.

Bigs are smaller in todays nba, the floor is spaced out because of the increased focus on 3 point shooting so its easier to score nowadays which is why you have so many players averaging 25 plus points a game. How often do you have some random player put up 50 in a game and no one blinks? Why? 3 point shooting and it’s easier to get to the basket when your center is out on the 3 point line.

And you can talk about expansion all you want but Jordan won 6 championships with one franschise, didnt ring chase with other superstar players, and never failed to show up for a finals series. Not all players today jump from franchise to franchise to play with other star players to win. Dont try and act like “thats the way it is today for everyone” because its not. 22 years and never been part of a dynasty. Yea teaming up with other all stars is no guarantee of success but its easier than hoping players your GM drafts turn into stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis were already star players before playing with James. Pippen and Grant obviously weren’t and Rodman was past his prime in 95.

Ill be 50 in August so ive seen both players as well and Jordan is the greatest player ive ever seen. Playing all 5 positions is cool but never being outplayed by your opponent on the biggest stage and winning 2 3 peats are what separates Jordan from James.

It's hilarious that people use this as legitimate argument and think it is somehow a good or smart point. MJ's teams were clearly better than any other teams in the league from players 2-12 (removing the number 1 player that is) . They literally won 55 games in 1993-94 when MJ quit on his team, only TWO games less than in 92-93 before quitting.

Somehow being drafted to and staying on the CLEARLY most talented and stacked team/organization in the league is better than signing on a top 3 team in the league. LeBron's Heat and Cavs teams were typically not even the best team in the league. For some reason being lucky enough to get drafted by a god-tier organization with the GOAT coach and best supporting cast is more honorable than signing with a good team

These types of arguments are why so many MJ fans get a bed reputation on here. There's so many good points you can make for him being a GOAT. But they resort to posting this slop? Please do better.

As I and others have said any number of times, yes very evidently good to great teams could be and were built around Jordan.

Your point is ?.

[Luke]

David Falk spoke at the Sports Business Journal 4SE conference few days ago and obliterated the media narrative .


When asked if he believed Michael Jordan was the Greatest Of All Time, he quickly agreed and mentioned that the number two spot would go to either Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant.

When asked if LeBron James fell within the top 10, he answered:

“Probably,” Falk said, before delivering the quote of the day: “I really like LeBron,” he said. “But I think if Jordan had cherry-picked what teams he wanted to be on and two other superstars, he would’ve won 15 championships.”

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2025/05/23/michael-jordan-lebron-james-david-falk-goat-debate/83819049007/

I love the fact that he said only " probably" and not "definitely" regarding Lebron being top 10; and that he gave his flowers to the real longevity GOAT ( Kareem, won two rings at 39 and 40) and to the Black Mamba.