KD for Towns Suns/Knicks

[taikibansei]

Scoring isn’t the issue. Defense is, but behind that the real issue is inflated salaries affecting the roster depth.

The Knicks aren’t trading for KD. It’s the same issues we are seeing with KAT and unlike KAT whose value is still good because he was all team NBA, KD could come here and be like PG in Philly where we can’t move him.

The idea is that KD would be playing the 4 allowing the Knicks to start Robinson or another rim protecting center. KD's size and supplemental rim protection along with OG sliding down to 3 certainly makes the Knicks defense better.

But yeah, too much of a gamble for the Knicks to make this trade. If KD was 34 instead of 37 I would love it for them.

Yep.

[WargamesX]

Scoring isn’t the issue. Defense is, but behind that the real issue is inflated salaries affecting the roster depth.

The Knicks aren’t trading for KD. It’s the same issues we are seeing with KAT and unlike KAT whose value is still good because he was all team NBA, KD could come here and be like PG in Philly where we can’t move him.

The idea is that KD would be playing the 4 allowing the Knicks to start Robinson or another rim protecting center. KD's size and supplemental rim protection along with OG sliding down to 3 certainly makes the Knicks defense better.

But yeah, too much of a gamble for the Knicks to make this trade. If KD was 34 instead of 37 I would love it for them.

Yep.

The main issue is can he hold up for the majority of 82 games and a long playoff run in a situation where there wouldnt be good bench depth and Thibs preferring to run short rotations.

I don’t know if he can but the Knicks aren’t in a position to take the risk to find out either.

[schnakenpopanz]

KD is still a top 15 player. but for how long?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Scoring isn’t the issue. Defense is, but behind that the real issue is inflated salaries affecting the roster depth.

The Knicks aren’t trading for KD. It’s the same issues we are seeing with KAT and unlike KAT whose value is still good because he was all team NBA, KD could come here and be like PG in Philly where we can’t move him.

C'mon man. Everyone knows that KD (even at 37 yrs old) is still a much better defender than KAT. And on offense, although their statistical production is similar, KD is clearly more efficient and a more elite creator. I mean he's still g up near MVP level production, while being the two way player that KAT just isn't.

And that's not to even mention the financial benefits for the Knicks cap siting in getting off of KATs long term money in a KD trade with KDs' money coming off the books as soon as 26. Obviously an important benefit for a 2nd apron team once all costs/ increases/ extensions are tabulated.

The value would clearly be in New York's favor here. I can understand preferring to try and trade KAT for other pieces. But those pieces aren't honestly likely to get you closer to a championship than KD would anyways.

KD at 37 years old is going to stay healthy playing heavy minutes for Thibs in both the regular season and playoffs? I wouldn’t bet the Knicks success on it and the FO shouldn’t either. We seen multiple times the Knicks get an aging star and it not work out and this would just be another example of that.

Also I don’t think the Knicks want to lose the KAT caphold. They are working with a 2-4 year window, losing 50 million that could be on the roster wouldnt help them compete in that time frame.

KDs' game though isn't predicated upon athleticism and physicality. And is much more centered around his elite dynamic scoring prowess, dynamic shotmaking and overall length and fluidity. So the age related physical regression would/ should be greatly mitigated contextually.

Also, KDs' necessity to having to play heavy minutes is more of our incompetent front office's poor roster construction not providing proper balance and depth support for sustainability. And this was exacerbated further by their overtly impetuous desires to mortgage everything rashly.

Now New York clearly has much better roster construction and depth options with their elite defensive wings and starting center. This would take alot of the minutes pressures off of KD and allow him to focus more on being offensively unstoppable!

New York also has a much better front office and is in a weaker Eastern conference too. Situational context playing to the Knicks advantage and mitigating the cumulative pressure/necessity for KD to really have to play heavy minutes altogether!

And obviously KD is again NOT the everyday "aging player." He's obviously still playing at an elite level and offering elite impact/ production on elite efficiency.


Again, I'd have to believe that KD at $54 million would still help get you guys closer to an actual championship in your 2-4 yr window than even Kat would due to his elite big shotmaking and elite dynamic shot creation for those periods of offensive stagnation that teams experience.

Also, KDs' 54 million coming off the books next summer would be of greater value towards your core salary increases, free agent extensions (Bridges), and possible free agent acquisitions for roster alterations/ flexibility under the CBA. That should not only help accommodate your 2-4 yr competitive window, but also possibly extend it by virtue of greater cap flexibility for 2026 free agency upgrades?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Scoring isn’t the issue. Defense is, but behind that the real issue is inflated salaries affecting the roster depth.

The Knicks aren’t trading for KD. It’s the same issues we are seeing with KAT and unlike KAT whose value is still good because he was all team NBA, KD could come here and be like PG in Philly where we can’t move him.

C'mon man. Everyone knows that KD (even at 37 yrs old) is still a much better defender than KAT. And on offense, although their statistical production is similar, KD is clearly more efficient and a more elite creator. I mean he's still g up near MVP level production, while being the two way player that KAT just isn't.

And that's not to even mention the financial benefits for the Knicks cap siting in getting off of KATs long term money in a KD trade with KDs' money coming off the books as soon as 26. Obviously an important benefit for a 2nd apron team once all costs/ increases/ extensions are tabulated.

The value would clearly be in New York's favor here. I can understand preferring to try and trade KAT for other pieces. But those pieces aren't honestly likely to get you closer to a championship than KD would anyways.

Nothing is clear about any of this. KAT and KD were nearly a wash last season--e.g., in addition to the nearly identical counting stats, KAT was +3.4 epm last season, KD +3.1 epm, etc. You don't pay additional assets to get the older player back in such an even exchange.

But more to the point, KAT remains an incredible leader on this team. The other players look up to him and feed off his energy on and off the court. KD brings none of this back.

A couple of things here though. First you're not really giving up additional assets in what I'm contextually proposing as it's a swap. Basically a 1 for 1. Second is the difference in what KD (even at 37) brings defensively too, whereas KAT clearly doesn't. And roster context between the two situations would obviously sway overall impact value.

KD clearly having to do much more on our lesser imbalanced roster obstructs his abilities to focus more on being truly offensively lethal and more elite on that end of the floor due to having to exert additional energy and focus to shore up defensive inadequacies of the Suns roster.


The Knicks don't have those defensive deficiencies with Bridges, Anunoby, etc. And would thusly insulate KD more on that end, also accentuating his overall elite impact further. And lastly, I like KAT aw a player, but is KAT really the leader? Or is it Jalen Brunson honestly?

I mean sure he's having a great run this season, but considering you guys struggles in this series, and the random instances of frustration/ dysfunction at times. Is he really the leader for the Knicks?

Read on Twitter

I mean I like the Knicks, and want either you or OKC to win the finals and Championship! But in this specific context, I'd still argue that KD gets you farther overall (with your roster compliments) than KAT in your 2-4 yr window.


And without the long term commitment involved as you'll most likely want to get out of the 2nd apron in the next two seasons anyways so your picks don't get frozen or moved to the end of the round like our situation. There's just multiple implicit benefits for New York with this postulation.

[shrink]

The idea is that KD would be playing the 4 allowing the Knicks to start Robinson or another rim protecting center. KD's size and supplemental rim protection along with OG sliding down to 3 certainly makes the Knicks defense better.

But yeah, too much of a gamble for the Knicks to make this trade. If KD was 34 instead of 37 I would love it for them.

Yep.

The main issue is can he hold up for the majority of 82 games and a long playoff run in a situation where there wouldnt be good bench depth and Thibs preferring to run short rotations.

I don’t know if he can but the Knicks aren’t in a position to take the risk to find out either.

I agree, but I would point out that NYK took that risk trading for Towns. He had missed over 150 games with injuries over the previous five seasons - even more than the often-maligned Embiid.

I love the guy and I hope he stays healthy. The gamble certainly paid off for NYK this year, congrats!

But there are two sides of the risk coin here. With KD, you are risking his health for a season. With Towns, you are risking his health on a supermax for three more years. Yes, he’s younger. But there is also $170 mil left on his contract, so it’s not like KAT’s health isn’t a big risk too.

[WargamesX]

Yep.

The main issue is can he hold up for the majority of 82 games and a long playoff run in a situation where there wouldnt be good bench depth and Thibs preferring to run short rotations.

I don’t know if he can but the Knicks aren’t in a position to take the risk to find out either.

I agree, but I would point out that NYK took that risk trading for Towns. He had missed over 150 games with injuries over the previous five seasons - even more than the often-maligned Embiid.

I love the guy and I hope he stays healthy. The gamble certainly paid off for NYK this year, congrats!

But there are two sides of the risk coin here. With KD, you are risking his health for a season. With Towns, you are risking his health on a supermax for three more years. Yes, he’s younger. But there is also $170 mil left on his contract, so it’s not like KAT’s health isn’t a big risk too.

I think that is a better argument to trade KAT in general than to trade him for KD specifically. If the Knicks are operating by under a 3-4 year plan to get a chip before the 2nd apron requires them to trade players away for salary reasons then they should mitigate the risk of KAT getting injured with multiple pieces. They shouldn’t trade him for a older KD who is a risk/age risk because he is an expiring risk.

[cgf]

Come on guys, it’s 2025 not 2015

[shrink]

The main issue is can he hold up for the majority of 82 games and a long playoff run in a situation where there wouldnt be good bench depth and Thibs preferring to run short rotations.

I don’t know if he can but the Knicks aren’t in a position to take the risk to find out either.

I agree, but I would point out that NYK took that risk trading for Towns. He had missed over 150 games with injuries over the previous five seasons - even more than the often-maligned Embiid.

I love the guy and I hope he stays healthy. The gamble certainly paid off for NYK this year, congrats!

But there are two sides of the risk coin here. With KD, you are risking his health for a season. With Towns, you are risking his health on a supermax for three more years. Yes, he’s younger. But there is also $170 mil left on his contract, so it’s not like KAT’s health isn’t a big risk too.

I think that is a better argument to trade KAT in general than to trade him for KD specifically. If the Knicks are operating by under a 3-4 year plan to get a chip before the 2nd apron requires them to trade players away for salary reasons then they should mitigate the risk of KAT getting injured with multiple pieces. They shouldn’t trade him for an older KD who is a risk/age risk because he is an expiring risk.

I agree, but it felt unfair to say that NYK can’t gamble on an older, injury-prone Durant staying healthy for one year, when they just gambled on a younger, injury-prone KAT staying healthy for four.

I hope KAT stays healthy all four, but if NYK wins a ring this year, I think the trade is automatically a success, even if Towns got hurt for the final three. Banners fly forever. This could be an automatic win, even after one season.

[taikibansei]

C'mon man. Everyone knows that KD (even at 37 yrs old) is still a much better defender than KAT. And on offense, although their statistical production is similar, KD is clearly more efficient and a more elite creator. I mean he's still g up near MVP level production, while being the two way player that KAT just isn't.

And that's not to even mention the financial benefits for the Knicks cap siting in getting off of KATs long term money in a KD trade with KDs' money coming off the books as soon as 26. Obviously an important benefit for a 2nd apron team once all costs/ increases/ extensions are tabulated.

The value would clearly be in New York's favor here. I can understand preferring to try and trade KAT for other pieces. But those pieces aren't honestly likely to get you closer to a championship than KD would anyways.

Nothing is clear about any of this. KAT and KD were nearly a wash last season--e.g., in addition to the nearly identical counting stats, KAT was +3.4 epm last season, KD +3.1 epm, etc. You don't pay additional assets to get the older player back in such an even exchange.

But more to the point, KAT remains an incredible leader on this team. The other players look up to him and feed off his energy on and off the court. KD brings none of this back.

A couple of things here though. First you're not really giving up additional assets in what I'm contextually proposing as it's a swap. Basically a 1 for 1. Second is the difference in what KD (even at 37) brings defensively too, whereas KAT clearly doesn't. And roster context between the two situations would obviously sway overall impact value.

KD clearly having to do much more on our lesser imbalanced roster obstructs his abilities to focus more on being truly offensively lethal and more elite on that end of the floor due to having to exert additional energy and focus to shore up defensive inadequacies of the Suns roster.

The Knicks don't have those defensive deficiencies with Bridges, Anunoby, etc. And would thusly insulate KD more on that end, also accentuating his overall elite impact further. And lastly, I like KAT aw a player, but is KAT really the leader? Or is it Jalen Brunson honestly?

I mean sure he's having a great run this season, but considering you guys struggles in this series, and the random instances of frustration/ dysfunction at times. Is he really the leader for the Knicks?

Read on Twitter

I mean I like the Knicks, and want either you or OKC to win the finals and Championship! But in this specific context, I'd still argue that KD gets you farther overall (with your roster compliments) than KAT in your 2-4 yr window.

And without the long term commitment involved as you'll most likely want to get out of the 2nd apron in the next two seasons anyways so your picks don't get frozen or moved to the end of the round like our situation. There's just multiple implicit benefits for New York with this postulation.

While not perfect, the Estimated Plus Minus stats I provided take into account offensive and defensive production. All other stats that I can find concur. KD and KAT were a wash last year--scoring just about even, KD slightly better on defense, and KAT a slightly better rebounder. I.e., exchanging KAT for KD does not make us a significantly better team.

Also, yes, KAT is a leader (1b to Brunson's 1a), and there is no locker room controversy. The Knicks players genuinely like each other.:

Read on Twitter

How does exchanging KAT for KD affect team chemistry? KD's always made it very clear that he is not a leader:

Read on Twitter

And here too:

“I’m not a leader. I’m bad at saying, ‘Stand behind me and follow me.’"

https://www.slamonline.com/archives/kevin-durant-doesnt-want-face-of-franchise/

Also, I've seen no evidence that KD deals well with media criticism--a must, if you're on the Knicks. Now, questions about the salary cap and KAT's own injury history are valid, but acquiring KD doesn't really fix these (or any) issues during what I see as our championship window (the next 2 seasons).

Off-topic for this board, but what I personally hope to see this summer is a coaching change. Note that I've defended Thibs on RealGM at some length over the years, and I continue to recognize that he's a good coach (particularly as a floor-raiser). That said, we currently have multiple combinations of players that result in on-court team production in the top five either on offense or on defense (depending on the player combinations). It boggles the mind that we can't take better advantage of the wide variety of "faces" we can show teams. Also, it's been clear that our five-out offensive sets are devastating to opponents--particularly those geared up to stopping Brunson. Why we can't switch--why we have to wait for a Brunson injury (or foul trouble) to change our offensive sets--also makes my head hurt.

However, the players also mostly respect Thibs (though there has been some minor grumbling--Mikal and Robinson so far--about him). Accordingly, I doubt we'll see a coaching change (and I'm not sure who to replace him with). Right now, I'm just enjoying us being competitive deep into the playoffs.

[Texas Chuck]

Come on guys, it’s 2025 not 2015

Agree. In 2015 we worried about age over everything else because we hadn't seen all these stars stay playing at a very high level into their late 30's like we have now.

One can debate the trade, but I agree with you, age isn't remotely a compelling reason here.

[cgf]

Come on guys, it’s 2025 not 2015

Agree. In 2015 we worried about age over everything else because we hadn't seen all these stars stay playing at a very high level into their late 30's like we have now.

One can debate the trade, but I agree with you, age isn't remotely a compelling reason here.

Exactly, Towns isn’t just better now, he’ll be great for another decade+. What are you getting with Durant, 5 more years max?

…

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not at all sure Towns will be great for 10 more years but its also not particularly relevant to the trade value here. Right now Towns has more years under contract. If one views Towns as great, then its a positive. Now with KD, I would assume the Suns aren't going to prevent teams from holding extension talks with him because they are motivated to deal him.

so one could match the length and I'll assume the money is close enough to not be a deciding factor. So then its evaluation of the players. For you its Towns so you either have no interest or need incentive. I'm less sold on that but I get it.

[JayTWill]

Maybe the Knicks would do this if they thought this would put them in a better position to win a championship but what teams have won a championship in the last 25 years being led by a 37 year old in a prominent role? We are seeing guys like Lebron, Steph and KD play at a high level late into their careers but they could also be like many other great players before them that never truly come close to another championship as "the guy" this late into their careers. They are great players but their overall impact is still declining and will continue to decline.

[R-DAWG]

Random question - at what point do we start referring to the Knicks has Suns East?

Sure, the Knicks don’t have a contract as bad as Beal’s - but once Bridges extension kicks in and they are paying a combined $80mm for Bridges/Anunoby as they approach age 30.

Neither team has control of their draft for the foreseeable future and are locked into the 2nd apron (Knicks are a year away)

A slight regression from Brunson while other teams improve and the Knicks are the 6th seed losing in the first round.

I was thinking of starting a poll earlier in the playoffs - who has a less desirable future - NY, PHX, DAL, or MIL. Then Dallas won the lottery and the chips fell in the Knicks direction against Boston.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Nothing is clear about any of this. KAT and KD were nearly a wash last season--e.g., in addition to the nearly identical counting stats, KAT was +3.4 epm last season, KD +3.1 epm, etc. You don't pay additional assets to get the older player back in such an even exchange.

But more to the point, KAT remains an incredible leader on this team. The other players look up to him and feed off his energy on and off the court. KD brings none of this back.

A couple of things here though. First you're not really giving up additional assets in what I'm contextually proposing as it's a swap. Basically a 1 for 1. Second is the difference in what KD (even at 37) brings defensively too, whereas KAT clearly doesn't. And roster context between the two situations would obviously sway overall impact value.

KD clearly having to do much more on our lesser imbalanced roster obstructs his abilities to focus more on being truly offensively lethal and more elite on that end of the floor due to having to exert additional energy and focus to shore up defensive inadequacies of the Suns roster.

The Knicks don't have those defensive deficiencies with Bridges, Anunoby, etc. And would thusly insulate KD more on that end, also accentuating his overall elite impact further. And lastly, I like KAT aw a player, but is KAT really the leader? Or is it Jalen Brunson honestly?

I mean sure he's having a great run this season, but considering you guys struggles in this series, and the random instances of frustration/ dysfunction at times. Is he really the leader for the Knicks?

Read on Twitter

I mean I like the Knicks, and want either you or OKC to win the finals and Championship! But in this specific context, I'd still argue that KD gets you farther overall (with your roster compliments) than KAT in your 2-4 yr window.

And without the long term commitment involved as you'll most likely want to get out of the 2nd apron in the next two seasons anyways so your picks don't get frozen or moved to the end of the round like our situation. There's just multiple implicit benefits for New York with this postulation.

While not perfect, the Estimated Plus Minus stats I provided take into account offensive and defensive production. All other stats that I can find concur. KD and KAT were a wash last year--scoring just about even, KD slightly better on defense, and KAT a slightly better rebounder. I.e., exchanging KAT for KD does not make us a significantly better team.

Also, yes, KAT is a leader (1b to Brunson's 1a), and there is no locker room controversy. The Knicks players genuinely like each other.:

Read on Twitter

How does exchanging KAT for KD affect team chemistry? KD's always made it very clear that he is not a leader:

Read on Twitter

And here too:

“I’m not a leader. I’m bad at saying, ‘Stand behind me and follow me.’"

https://www.slamonline.com/archives/kevin-durant-doesnt-want-face-of-franchise/

Also, I've seen no evidence that KD deals well with media criticism--a must, if you're on the Knicks. Now, questions about the salary cap and KAT's own injury history are valid, but acquiring KD doesn't really fix these (or any) issues during what I see as our championship window (the next 2 seasons).

Off-topic for this board, but what I personally hope to see this summer is a coaching change. Note that I've defended Thibs on RealGM at some length over the years, and I continue to recognize that he's a good coach (particularly as a floor-raiser). That said, we currently have multiple combinations of players that result in on-court team production in the top five either on offense or on defense (depending on the player combinations). It boggles the mind that we can't take better advantage of the wide variety of "faces" we can show teams. Also, it's been clear that our five-out offensive sets are devastating to opponents--particularly those geared up to stopping Brunson. Why we can't switch--why we have to wait for a Brunson injury (or foul trouble) to change our offensive sets--also makes my head hurt.

However, the players also mostly respect Thibs (though there has been some minor grumbling--Mikal and Robinson so far--about him). Accordingly, I doubt we'll see a coaching change (and I'm not sure who to replace him with). Right now, I'm just enjoying us being competitive deep into the playoffs.

You're offering good points to reflect upon. But again, my argument would be KD being a better and more impactful fit in New York because the Knicks roster is more balanced/ properly constructed.

And due to not being imbalanced with significant Ball dominant redundancy, and also only offering minimal defensive aptitude like our Phoenix roster, KD and his elite creation and closing abilities would be accentuated possibly to a greater level that could help elevate the Knicks with a higher overall ceiling outcome.

I believe that KD was put into an unfavorable situation due to our inexperienced and impulsive/ shortsighted front office choosing to overpay and mortgage all of our available assets for him. And then compounded those mistakes by hastily trying to recreate a superteam with poor fitting redundant players. The difference with the Knicks roster is again that they're balanced and with greater defensive depth throughout.

And KD on that roster would elevate the team higher (even if only moderately) because of his elite dynamic scoring abilities for closing games. Phoenix didn't/ doesn't really have the right pieces to compliment their goals. But the Knicks do. So I'm envisioning a more favorable outcome as a result. And again without the necessity of a long term commitment also adding value in flexibility for the Knicks cap/ apron situation and being able to have flexibility for more moves too!

Now as for KD being a leader, obviously his reputation indicates what you've pointed out that he's not a vocal leader, and more of a silent assasin/ Hooper. But with the Knicks, I don't really see this being an issue because it's Jalens' team.

And as you pointed out, KAT is really the 1B to Bronson's 1A. So KD could still ideally fit as an elite 1B to Brunsons' 1A. KD filling the role of an unstoppable closer. And also strengthening Brunsons' elite closing abilities as a closer too.

I mean which guy would you really prefer to leave open in those scenarios so the defense can collapse/ double? Also, considering the stretches in which teams go through scoring droughts in the playoffs and struggle to create, which of KAT or KD (given their reputations and the stated goals you're trying to achieve- championship), which of those two players (KD or KAT) would you really prefer in closing moments of the games??

Both players being really good of course! But which of those two has built a better reputation as a stone cold game winning closer that's near unstoppable ov er r their careers?

[cgf]

Random question - at what point do we start referring to the Knicks has Suns East?

Sure, the Knicks don’t have a contract as bad as Beal’s - but once Bridges extension kicks in and they are paying a combined $80mm for Bridges/Anunoby as they approach age 30.

Neither team has control of their draft for the foreseeable future and are locked into the 2nd apron (Knicks are a year away)

A slight regression from Brunson while other teams improve and the Knicks are the 6th seed losing in the first round.

I was thinking of starting a poll earlier in the playoffs - who has a less desirable future - NY, PHX, DAL, or MIL. Then Dallas won the lottery and the chips fell in the Knicks direction against Boston.

In about 8 years