The Official 2025 Offseason Thread Part 2

[BobbieL]

I'd say he exceed what I'd expect from a 35 year old. Again, I just don't believe team can win with him as #1 option and leader because while being a dominant scorer, he does very little else and lack leadership skills when things are hard, but I expected us to be at least a fun and high scoring team in the regular season but ultimately flame out in the playoffs because of size and defense. What I didn't expect is 1) trading of CP3 leaving a big void in that leadership role and 2) Book regression. So definitely not KD's fault that we are not putting the right pieces around him.

Every trade is a gamble, again I said it many times I don't mind the trade, we overpaid but fine, what I'm disappointed at is that the inability to identify the mistakes and pivot. Instead they double down and made several more horrible trades to dig ourselves into deeper hole.

I’m right there with you. I think we got exactly what I expected from KD. If anyone expected him to carry this team single-handedly—like Jokic or a prime LeBron might, dragging them into the playoffs through sheer force of will—they don’t really understand who KD is. He’s never really been the engine of the team kinda guy. Even back in OKC, there was always the debate about who was the bus driver—him or Westbrook. While both guys are raising the floor and ceiling together, you could argue the team is maximised with Westbrook raising the floor, while KD is the one raising the ceiling.

At this stage in his career, KD just can’t be the guy who lifts the floor anymore. Sure, take him off a team and the floor drops, but if you’re expecting 36-year-old KD to play 36-40 minutes every night just to keep the baseline steady, that's an incredible poor utilisation of him.

I look at KD and Book (to an extent, same with Beal) as similar type of players; lethal weapons that can win games for you in the right situations. They are the ceiling raisers. What's missing is a true floor raiser which Chris Paul was. Once CP3 left, this team just struggled to close out winnable games, especially in the regular season. The Vogel Suns collapsing in the fourth quarter, after looking competitive or even dominant for the first three quarters, is the clearest example of that. We spend almost all our talent capital in the first 3 quarters only for it to run out in the 4th. I'm not even going to talk about this past season because I can't even be bothered to do a post-mortem on it to figure out exactly what was wrong with this iteration of the Suns.

So, to me, there’s a clear distinction between the expectations for the team after trading for KD and the expectations for KD himself. KD either met or exceeded my expectations as a player, depending on what aspect you look at. But the team, post-KD trade, seriously underperformed especially when you consider the future we had to mortgage to put this disappointing team together. While KD shares some blame, the bigger problems with the team ran much deeper than his individual performance—which, honestly, was pretty great.

KD and Booker are excellent scorers. I would say that Booker took a lot interest in the defensive end two seasons ago and KD has played some excellent defense this season, although he was not playing his natural spot at SF.
However, I would say they miss all those important aspects that do not show on the stats and that take teams to success.
I believe everybody understands what I mean.
They come to the office to collect their salaries after scoring their 25/28 points expecting nothing else. Do they care about winning, team chemistry, doing the little things that do not show on the stat sheet?
Do they think that they do enough by scoring so many points and that others should take care of the small details?
They could have their share of reason, no doubt.
There were so many thing to be solved by BDH and that were left unanswered...

I can see why the team needed Butler - they needed somebody to do the dirty work that Book and KD won't do and that is being a leader of team. And maybe not everybody is meant to be a leader alpha type. But the Suns having two very good players - one arguably still top 10 and one of the best players of the last 15 years -- doesn't mean they will get the wins.

[ChuckS]

I’m right there with you. I think we got exactly what I expected from KD. If anyone expected him to carry this team single-handedly—like Jokic or a prime LeBron might, dragging them into the playoffs through sheer force of will—they don’t really understand who KD is. He’s never really been the engine of the team kinda guy. Even back in OKC, there was always the debate about who was the bus driver—him or Westbrook. While both guys are raising the floor and ceiling together, you could argue the team is maximised with Westbrook raising the floor, while KD is the one raising the ceiling.

At this stage in his career, KD just can’t be the guy who lifts the floor anymore. Sure, take him off a team and the floor drops, but if you’re expecting 36-year-old KD to play 36-40 minutes every night just to keep the baseline steady, that's an incredible poor utilisation of him.

I look at KD and Book (to an extent, same with Beal) as similar type of players; lethal weapons that can win games for you in the right situations. They are the ceiling raisers. What's missing is a true floor raiser which Chris Paul was. Once CP3 left, this team just struggled to close out winnable games, especially in the regular season. The Vogel Suns collapsing in the fourth quarter, after looking competitive or even dominant for the first three quarters, is the clearest example of that. We spend almost all our talent capital in the first 3 quarters only for it to run out in the 4th. I'm not even going to talk about this past season because I can't even be bothered to do a post-mortem on it to figure out exactly what was wrong with this iteration of the Suns.

So, to me, there’s a clear distinction between the expectations for the team after trading for KD and the expectations for KD himself. KD either met or exceeded my expectations as a player, depending on what aspect you look at. But the team, post-KD trade, seriously underperformed especially when you consider the future we had to mortgage to put this disappointing team together. While KD shares some blame, the bigger problems with the team ran much deeper than his individual performance—which, honestly, was pretty great.

KD and Booker are excellent scorers. I would say that Booker took a lot interest in the defensive end two seasons ago and KD has played some excellent defense this season, although he was not playing his natural spot at SF.
However, I would say they miss all those important aspects that do not show on the stats and that take teams to success.
I believe everybody understands what I mean.
They come to the office to collect their salaries after scoring their 25/28 points expecting nothing else. Do they care about winning, team chemistry, doing the little things that do not show on the stat sheet?
Do they think that they do enough by scoring so many points and that others should take care of the small details?
They could have their share of reason, no doubt.
There were so many thing to be solved by BDH and that were left unanswered...

I can see why the team needed Butler - they needed somebody to do the dirty work that Book and KD won't do and that is being a leader of team. And maybe not everybody is meant to be a leader alpha type. But the Suns having two very good players - one arguably still top 10 and one of the best players of the last 15 years -- doesn't mean they will get the wins.

With the anonymity of the internet it's impossible to tell who is qualified to measure leadership. And I certainly claim no expertise, although with a modicum of psych training I do believe KD is at least an alpha, and maybe even one of Maslow's "self actualized".

I base my leadership guess on Kevin's accomplishments: League MVP and multiple runner ups, 2 championships with finals MVPs. four gold medals with an Olympic and World Games MVPs, plus all time US points leader, 2 all star game MVP's, a Roy, 4 scoring titles, 15 all star selections, his coaches' analysis, and whatever else I've forgotten. Because of his prodigious scoring, I suspect a few are unaware of his exceptional defense (described by Ron Adams, the great OKC and GSW defensive guru), or his overall exceptional versatility which sometimes goes unnoticed. I think Butler is another all time great IMO, but with no league championships, and one Olympic Gold Medal. He has also been a six time all star and 5 time all defense. Both have made numerous All NBA Teams.

I would take either in a heartbeat, but like GSW and I think most NBA personnel, Durant would be my overwhelming first choice. I certainly cannot fault anyone for thinking highly of Jimmy, however.

[King4Day]

Hetzel, a veteran assistant coach with a track record of player development and organizational respect, served this past season under Nets head coach Jordi Fernández. While much of the coaching spotlight in Brooklyn has centered on Fernández’s rise, Hetzel has quietly built his own profile around the league, earning praise for his basketball IQ, calm leadership style, and ability to connect with players across a variety of locker rooms.

His name gaining traction in Phoenix signals the Suns may be leaning toward a more developmental, system-oriented approach after moving on from Frank Vogel. With stars like Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and Bradley Beal already in place, the next head coach will need to balance star management with the ability to elevate the supporting cast — a skill Hetzel has honed throughout his NBA journey.

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[BobbieL]

KD and Booker are excellent scorers. I would say that Booker took a lot interest in the defensive end two seasons ago and KD has played some excellent defense this season, although he was not playing his natural spot at SF.
However, I would say they miss all those important aspects that do not show on the stats and that take teams to success.
I believe everybody understands what I mean.
They come to the office to collect their salaries after scoring their 25/28 points expecting nothing else. Do they care about winning, team chemistry, doing the little things that do not show on the stat sheet?
Do they think that they do enough by scoring so many points and that others should take care of the small details?
They could have their share of reason, no doubt.
There were so many thing to be solved by BDH and that were left unanswered...

I can see why the team needed Butler - they needed somebody to do the dirty work that Book and KD won't do and that is being a leader of team. And maybe not everybody is meant to be a leader alpha type. But the Suns having two very good players - one arguably still top 10 and one of the best players of the last 15 years -- doesn't mean they will get the wins.

With the anonymity of the internet it's impossible to tell who is qualified to measure leadership. And I certainly claim no expertise, although with a modicum of psych training I do believe KD is at least an alpha, and maybe even one of Maslow's "self actualized".

I base my leadership guess on Kevin's accomplishments: League MVP and multiple runner ups, 2 championships with finals MVPs. four gold medals with an Olympic and World Games MVPs, plus all time US points leader, 2 all star game MVP's, a Roy, 4 scoring titles, 15 all star selections, his coaches' analysis, and whatever else I've forgotten. Because of his prodigious scoring, I suspect a few are unaware of his exceptional defense (described by Ron Adams, the great OKC and GSW defensive guru), or his overall exceptional versatility which sometimes goes unnoticed. I think Butler is another all time great IMO, but with no league championships, and one Olympic Gold Medal. He has also been a six time all star and 5 time all defense. Both have made numerous All NBA Teams.

I would take either in a heartbeat, but like GSW and I think most NBA personnel, Durant would be my overwhelming first choice. I certainly cannot fault anyone for thinking highly of Jimmy, however.

Nobody is questioning the talent of Durant. But the bigger thing is - does he lead teams. Bickley noted this months ago about both KD and Booker - the Olympics are the perfect team for them to play on. They can just hoop and let others "be the leader". Booker worked great with CP3 as he was the leader. Durant with the Warriors - between Curry and Dray, they were the alpha personalities on the team

My point is that I am not sure a team with both Booker and Durant without that alpha presence (CP3, maybe a Sam Cassell, a Jimmy Butler) will succeed in winning games. Not putting up stats - winning titles.

[Revived]

Instead of hiring from one of the recent well established organizations like the Thunder, Heat or Wolves, Ishbia has some guy that’s part of some of the worst teams (Pistons, Hornets, Magic, Blazers and Nets) as the front runner.

Out of the reported candidates, either Micah Nori, Dave Bliss or Chris Quinn should be the pick.

But of course Ishbia will instead hire from one of the dumpster franchises so he can continue to have as much control as possible. Why doesn’t this idiot just coach the team himself then? He’s already GMing himself.

Hetzel is a native of Allen Park, Michigan. Hetzel graduated from Michigan State University in 2005.

Of course now I see why Ishbia has him in the lead. My fcking god man, why can’t the Pistons go for sale and Ishbia can sell the Suns and buy them instead.

[BobbieL]

:evil: Instead of hiring from one of the recent well established organizations like the Thunder, Heat or Wolves, Ishbia has some guy that’s part of some of the worst teams (Pistons, Hornets, Magic, Blazers and Nets) as the front runner.

Out of the reported candidates, either Micah Nori, Dave Bliss or Chris Quinn should be the pick.

But of course Ishbia will instead hire from one of the dumpster franchises so he can continue to have as much control as possible. Why doesn’t this idiot just coach the team himself then? He’s already GMing himself.

Hetzel is a native of Allen Park, Michigan. Hetzel graduated from Michigan State University in 2005.

Of course now I see why Ishbia has him in the lead. My fcking god man, why can’t the Pistons go for sale and Ishbia can sell the Suns and buy them instead.

If Ishbia needs somebody to be from Michigan State - -the Suns are doomed.
I don't mind Ott - he has coached under Atkinsson twice I believe - Nets and now CAvs

[ChuckS]

I can see why the team needed Butler - they needed somebody to do the dirty work that Book and KD won't do and that is being a leader of team. And maybe not everybody is meant to be a leader alpha type. But the Suns having two very good players - one arguably still top 10 and one of the best players of the last 15 years -- doesn't mean they will get the wins.

With the anonymity of the internet it's impossible to tell who is qualified to measure leadership. And I certainly claim no expertise, although with a modicum of psych training I do believe KD is at least an alpha, and maybe even one of Maslow's "self actualized".

I base my leadership guess on Kevin's accomplishments: League MVP and multiple runner ups, 2 championships with finals MVPs. four gold medals with an Olympic and World Games MVPs, plus all time US points leader, 2 all star game MVP's, a Roy, 4 scoring titles, 15 all star selections, his coaches' analysis, and whatever else I've forgotten. Because of his prodigious scoring, I suspect a few are unaware of his exceptional defense (described by Ron Adams, the great OKC and GSW defensive guru), or his overall exceptional versatility which sometimes goes unnoticed. I think Butler is another all time great IMO, but with no league championships, and one Olympic Gold Medal. He has also been a six time all star and 5 time all defense. Both have made numerous All NBA Teams.

I would take either in a heartbeat, but like GSW and I think most NBA personnel, Durant would be my overwhelming first choice. I certainly cannot fault anyone for thinking highly of Jimmy, however.

Nobody is questioning the talent of Durant. But the bigger thing is - does he lead teams. Bickley noted this months ago about both KD and Booker - the Olympics are the perfect team for them to play on. They can just hoop and let others "be the leader". Booker worked great with CP3 as he was the leader. Durant with the Warriors - between Curry and Dray, they were the alpha personalities on the team

My point is that I am not sure a team with both Booker and Durant without that alpha presence (CP3, maybe a Sam Cassell, a Jimmy Butler) will succeed in winning games. Not putting up stats - winning titles.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I do not understand why you believe Durant (particularly) and Booker are not equally alpha to CP3 and Butler, and particularly Cassell. The overall team is what wins championships. CP3 like Butler never won a championship. Cassell won three, but I question his necessity with Hakeem and Drexler, and he was 38 when he won because of Pierce, Garnett, and Ray Allen. But if you are still not sure after comparing the three to KD, I will not attempt to argue further.

[BobbieL]

With the anonymity of the internet it's impossible to tell who is qualified to measure leadership. And I certainly claim no expertise, although with a modicum of psych training I do believe KD is at least an alpha, and maybe even one of Maslow's "self actualized".

I base my leadership guess on Kevin's accomplishments: League MVP and multiple runner ups, 2 championships with finals MVPs. four gold medals with an Olympic and World Games MVPs, plus all time US points leader, 2 all star game MVP's, a Roy, 4 scoring titles, 15 all star selections, his coaches' analysis, and whatever else I've forgotten. Because of his prodigious scoring, I suspect a few are unaware of his exceptional defense (described by Ron Adams, the great OKC and GSW defensive guru), or his overall exceptional versatility which sometimes goes unnoticed. I think Butler is another all time great IMO, but with no league championships, and one Olympic Gold Medal. He has also been a six time all star and 5 time all defense. Both have made numerous All NBA Teams.

I would take either in a heartbeat, but like GSW and I think most NBA personnel, Durant would be my overwhelming first choice. I certainly cannot fault anyone for thinking highly of Jimmy, however.

Nobody is questioning the talent of Durant. But the bigger thing is - does he lead teams. Bickley noted this months ago about both KD and Booker - the Olympics are the perfect team for them to play on. They can just hoop and let others "be the leader". Booker worked great with CP3 as he was the leader. Durant with the Warriors - between Curry and Dray, they were the alpha personalities on the team

My point is that I am not sure a team with both Booker and Durant without that alpha presence (CP3, maybe a Sam Cassell, a Jimmy Butler) will succeed in winning games. Not putting up stats - winning titles.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I do not understand why you believe Durant (particularly) and Booker are not equally alpha to CP3 and Butler, and particularly Cassell. The overall team is what wins championships. CP3 like Butler never won a championship. Cassell won three, but I question his necessity with Hakeem and Drexler, and he was 38 when he won because of Pierce, Garnett, and Ray Allen. But if you are still not sure after comparing the three to KD, I will not attempt to argue further.

I think its more than Booker and Durant are not compatible teammates. Games are very similar. Add in Beal - its a mess

Now its not KD and Bookers fault about their teammates. But having two players that good - -team should win more than 36 games. And to be better, it will take more than moving on from Beal, and making 'around the edges' trades.

[dremill24]

Continuing to workshop KD deals, landing on San Antonio this time. Nothing life-changing but offers a few desirable elements. Spurs arent my favorite partner but seem to have a bit more smoke than others.

SA: Vassell, Barnes, #14, '26 1st for Durant
ORL: KCP, Bitadze, #25, '26 2nd for Vassell, #29
PHX: Durant, #29 for KCP, Barnes, Bitadze, #25, '26 1st, '26 2nd

It aint sexy, but you get some depth and and draft capital. This shaves ~$5mil, which gives them some wiggle room under the 2nd apron when combined with letting Martin & Micic go.

Getting a late lotto pick is a draw, they can take a flier on maybe someone like Essengue, Coward, etc. They also move up a couple spots at the end of the 1st and could look at trying to package #14 & #25 to move up. Maybe they could even swing getting #25 outright instead of swapping #29 for it (while ORL keeps the 2nd). An extra 1st next year is big since they dont have one and it also allows a bit more flexibility navigating the Stepien rule for future deals.

Bitadze is a legit rim protector on a really good contract, who can really anchor a defense if the rest of the roster is bought in. Still not 100% sure hes quite at this level, but truly great rim protectors can give you a pretty solid floor as a defense, at least. His offense is rough but he creates extra possessions on the offensive glass, so he and Richards could bring the team above 'pathetic' in that area as well.

KCP isnt exciting and his contract isnt great if the offensive struggles continue but its only two seasons, lining up with Beal. He can be a legit POA defender against guys who arent giant as well, which could pair well with an improved Dunn, flanking Booker with more defense on the perimeter.

Barnes provides a steady stretch 4 who more importantly expires after this season, continuing the steady drop in payroll. For now, he wont hurt you on the court at a position that is severely lacking.

Might have Vassell's value a little off, but I dont think Orlando is giving up much tbh. Hes coming off a down year but has been better than that. Might have to fight for that extra 1st from SA as well, maybe landing it on not being one of their good ones. Also could see it having to be Johnson instead of Barnes, which I'd be less excited about but if it nets a bettee future draft asset then maybe. They may also want to send an additional salary to a 4th team so they dont take on too much extra money, as they'd be hard capping themselves at the 1st apron.

Just kinda starting the process of creating flexibility and adding some defense and youth during this transition period. Kind of a blend of draft/salary benefits but also solid players to help stay competitive(ish). They could likely move Royce or Allen for some instant savings and get access to the TMLE if they wanted as well.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

[Puff]

[
I don't hate KD either. He's been largely what we traded for, an elite, efficient scorer who can step up in the clutch. But in retrospect, we didn't have the foundations in place to really maximise KD's impact outside of his stats.

I disagree that this take would be “in retrospect”. You can check the KD trade thread, many of us hated and called this happening.

Many on the GB said how the Suns would be the new Nets and they were all proven correctly.

I think 90% of humans on this planet that follow basketball knew that trade was a piss poor one. Even James Jones did not want to do it and Ishbia the idiotic dumbass had to override him for it.

First with respect to the trade - I always felt giving up Mikal and more than 2 FRPs was a non-starter. But Ishbia blew through that easy. Jones didn't even want to do that trade

With respect to looking at Durant. Yes, at 25, even now at 35, he is an elite scorer of the basketball. And maybe at 25, the trade would have been better value. But with hindsight, seeing what type of player he is - he is still more the ultimate Robin who needs the Batman.

The Suns will take a step back without Durant but longer term, they take a step forward.

At Least you now acknowledge that we will take a step back by moving KD. That will happen. The real question is when we will take a step forward.

If we get bad draft picks and bench warmers with expiring contracts to match his salary, why not just keep him?

If we get great draft picks and a couple of legitimate young players in return for him, I am all in for trading him.

We will see what the real offers for him are in about a month or so. I just do not know what teams are willing to pay the price that we want. I repeat, I like the suggested deal with Houston as well as the Miami deal if it includes Jovic, Ware and some good draft picks. Those are the trades that could really work to our advantage.

[King4Day]

Read on Twitter

Thought of your when I saw this.

I think he was going to end up early 20's anyway.

[Calvin Klein]

Seriously what a **** clown Ishbia is. How can anybody still support what he has done?

[Saberestar]

Gambo:

Not accurate. It is down to four. Chris Quinn, Johnnie Bryant and Jordan Ott I can confirm through various sources are in the Final Four.

In other tweet he says that Sweeney is not the fourth.

[BobbieL]

I disagree that this take would be “in retrospect”. You can check the KD trade thread, many of us hated and called this happening.

Many on the GB said how the Suns would be the new Nets and they were all proven correctly.

I think 90% of humans on this planet that follow basketball knew that trade was a piss poor one. Even James Jones did not want to do it and Ishbia the idiotic dumbass had to override him for it.

First with respect to the trade - I always felt giving up Mikal and more than 2 FRPs was a non-starter. But Ishbia blew through that easy. Jones didn't even want to do that trade

With respect to looking at Durant. Yes, at 25, even now at 35, he is an elite scorer of the basketball. And maybe at 25, the trade would have been better value. But with hindsight, seeing what type of player he is - he is still more the ultimate Robin who needs the Batman.

The Suns will take a step back without Durant but longer term, they take a step forward.

At Least you now acknowledge that we will take a step back by moving KD. That will happen. The real question is when we will take a step forward.

If we get bad draft picks and bench warmers with expiring contracts to match his salary, why not just keep him?

If we get great draft picks and a couple of legitimate young players in return for him, I am all in for trading him.

We will see what the real offers for him are in about a month or so. I just do not know what teams are willing to pay the price that we want. I repeat, I like the suggested deal with Houston as well as the Miami deal if it includes Jovic, Ware and some good draft picks. Those are the trades that could really work to our advantage.

Personally - my plan would be to - since they are keeping Booker -- there is a model to build around Booker
1) trade Durant
2) ride out Beal for two years to get the big expiring because I think his expiring in 2027 brings more value than MAYBE adding the MLE this year - get by with min level vets
3) trade O'Neale and Allen for expirings by 2027 -

Hopefully with the players from Durant, and picks, making other picks - you can start to build a team that in the summer of 2027 will have cap flexibility. I am by no means guaranteeing anything. I have seen enough of the current to know - its not working with Durant Beal and Booker

[Saberestar]

Shams

"There was mutual interest at the deadline," said Shams Charania about Durant and the Spurs.

"I think they're going to be looking very actively to see if there's a wing player we can bring in that could take us over the top."

[MrMiyagi]

Seriously what a **** clown Ishbia is. How can anybody still support what he has done?

But Billionaire means smart!

[Sunsdeuce]

Seriously what a **** clown Ishbia is. How can anybody still support what he has done?

But Billionaire means smart!

I think based on everything we experienced 2024 and right at thsi moment, it has proven that billionaires are not smart people but people desperately want to make them out to be!

[Puff]

Gambo's final three new head coaches with a possible 4th added

1. Johnnie Bryant
2. David Ott
3. Chris Quinn

Make your pick

We probably should set up a place for posters to make their choice.

[bwgood77]

Anyone that does business with the Spurs is going to get hosed. Just ask the Kings who traded Fox for peanuts.

I highly doubt they will move Harper for future picks. Clearly the NBA will help them in every draft.

I'd call this more a Kings thing than a Spurs thing. Kings get hosed by everyone.

Correct. Point stands though because Silver just gave them the #2 pick. They will jump into the top 5 whenever necessary.

Or just take Bagley over Luka after we take Ayton over Luka.